Recommend me a life raft

[Supertramp]

+1 for EPIRB and drysuit.

I have a liferaft because my crew feel safer with one on board. I always have an inflatable dinghy on deck although not always inflated.

If you carry an inflatable dinghy (which might be a challenge!) then rely on that, perhaps with an inflation cylinder of some sort.

On a small boat, consider using inflated buoyancy bags in hidden areas to allow a swamped boat to stay afloat. I had polystyrene blocks in hidden areas on a previous boat to do this. Bit messy but gave some reassurance.

Fire is probably a much bigger concern...

 

[LittleSister]

I positively would not want a liferaft aboard a Corribee or similar sized vessel, unless I was planning to cross an ocean in it (which I'm certainly not). In a Corribee or similar sized vessel a liferaft will take up a lot of the very limited space, and be a significant weight (they're heavy!) in the wrong place. (Of course it's possible.)

I inherited one with a significantly more spacious boat (chunky 27 footer) I bought, considered it at the time of purchase as a minor advantage, and have since removed it from the boat because I found it very much in the way aboard.

I've sailed without one for years and many thousands of miles - coastal, cross Channel, continent Netherlands to Brittany, etc. - mainly in small boats, because of limited funds and limited space. (As far as I can recall the only times I've sailed with a liferaft was on much bigger boats owned by people or organisations significantly wealthier than me.) Of all the additional kit I would like to have if I had the money and space, a liferaft is way down the list down the list, at least for the type of sailing the OP mentions and which I normally do.

Everyone must decide for themselves - I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just giving my take as food for thought - but in my opinion any spare funds and attention would be far better devoted to making sure the boat and its gear was as appropriate reliable and robust as possible; and having a good understanding of, and maintaining attention to, potential hazards aboard and in relation to navigating, collision avoidance and weather.

I have heard endless tales (and had not a few of my own!) of people getting in a pickle, even in danger, from gear failure, ignorance, misunderstandings, failure to pay appropriate attention, daft slip-ups, etc., most of which could have been avoided, but very, very few where a liferaft was 'the solution'. I don't think I've ever met, and not sure I've even heard from (perhaps 1 or 2 on here long ago?) anyone who has actually used a liferaft in anger.

 

[Tranona]

Fire is probably a much bigger concern...

Why would that be on a simple little boat like the OPs?

Like foundering or having to take to the water in a dry suit fire in small yachts at sea in British coastal waters is almost unheard of.

The OP is a sensible chap. Like most of us here he will watch his weather prepare himself (with his partner) well and enjoy his hops down the coast with maybe 30-40 miles daily runs and maybe an odd overnighter. Rarely more than 10 miles off the coast, out of shipping lanes and few natural hazards. Those that are there are well marked and ways of avoiding danger well known. Never out of mobile phone or VHF range which will link him to the best rescue services in the world, This is not an epic endurance course in exposed waters, out of sight of land and communications, but something that thousands of us do every year for years on end as a matter of course and without coming to any harm.

Analysis of what data there is suggests that the 3 main causes of founderings of small yachts where a liferaft might be (or was) needed are extreme weather, structural failure (usually keels off racing yachts) and collisions. Even then the data set is tiny - less than 20 incidents that warranted a detailed report in more than 20 years. Since then (my research was around 2015) there have been even fewer which is hardly surprising given the advances in weather forecasting, communications, navigation aids and quality of boats and gear in general.

I hope the OP keeps a sense of proportion, prepares himself well, recognises the limitations and has a great time.

 

[LittleSister]

Analysis of what data there is suggests that the 3 main causes of founderings of small yachts where a liferaft might be (or was) needed are extreme weather, structural failure (usually keels off racing yachts) and collisions. Even then the data set is tiny - less than 20 incidents that warranted a detailed report in more than 20 years. Since then (my research was around 2015) there have been even fewer which is hardly surprising given the advances in weather forecasting, communications, navigation aids and quality of boats and gear in general.

Not to mention the superior quality of the skippers and crew, such as those on this forum!

 

[harvey38]

I think that's a bit harsh to be honest because if you look at the statistics then you can see that really isn't required for coastal cruising around that area. A device like an EPirb emergency beacon is much more useful than carrying a 30+ kilogram Life raft around on a small boat. If you're gonna make a safety case you need to really make the case because otherwise you might as well just argue that the safest course of action is don't go sailing because then you'll never need rescuing and of course statistically that's correct.

I only care about those I take out on my boat, I have no interest in statistics!

No-one knows knows people will react if it all starts to go wrong, even a few miles off shore so for my peace of mind, and those aboard, a life raft is another bit of kit I'd rather have and not need.

 

[PhillM]

Thanks for the advice and I don’t disagree with any of the polarised positions.

I have deployed a life raft in anger when I planted Paean on a rock in Plymouth Harbour, in fog, at night. Of course lots of lessons learned since then. But I will add one before longer, most probably single or short handed passages.

So my questions remains, which? Any experience of quality and perceived reliability much appreciated.

And for the record I have a PLB and will either get a second for any crew or an epirb.

 

[Tranona]

Nothing really to choose among them. They are all built to the same specification and the basic Seago will do as well as any of the others if you need it.

 

[Tranona]

I only care about those I take out on my boat, I have no interest in statistics!

No-one knows knows people will react if it all starts to go wrong, even a few miles off shore so for my peace of mind, and those aboard, a life raft is another bit of kit I'd rather have and not need.

If you don't know how people will react, how do you think a liferaft will help? Again if you read the reports (and the statistics!) on deployment of liferafts you will find they often fail and are difficult to deploy and enter. Suggest you actually go on a survival course to get a feel for what is involved in using one in the event of abandoning ship. Then you realise you need to prepare yourself for never needing one and the image of you and your crew stepping neatly off your sinking boat into the "safety" of a liferaft is hopelessly unrealistic.

I know that people feel "better" about having a liferaft on board, but for leisure sailors around our coasts it will never be needed and having one on board won't change that, and if you are negligent or unlucky enough to get into a situation where it might be needed, it probably won't work - that is what statistics and experience tells us.

 

[Gsailor]

I sometimes carry a 3D tender tied on the 'boot lid', but I wouldn't want to have to inflate it in an emergency so I was wondering about a Fladen Flotation Suit.

Anyone tried one?

Survival suit would be better.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Survival suit would be better.

Most survival suits I have worn are less suitable than a Fladen. They are uncomfortable and require layers of warm clothing underneath.

The Fladen style are insulated and better for regular wearing on the boat.

Also the one piece Fladen is made to the same ISO standard as survival suits.

Fladen is superior in every way for leisure sailors that require a flotation suit.

In my humble opinion.

 

[Rhylsailer99]

Most survival suits I have worn are less suitable than a Fladen. They are uncomfortable and require layers of warm clothing underneath.

The Fladen style are insulated and better for regular wearing on the boat.

Also the one piece Fladen is made to the same ISO standard as survival suits.

Fladen is superior in every way for leisure sailors that require a flotation suit.

In my humble opinion.

I bought one on eBay a North sea survival suit.

 

[Refueler]

I have always sat on the fence about getting a L/R .... with a 25ft boat - its a question of where to stow it ... therefore I only considered if going across Baltic / Eng Channel etc.

With the 38 I now have added to my 'fleet' ... the question arises again ... even with the increased possible crew numbers - I would still not go above a 4man L/R .... and most likely a Valise so that I can stow away when not on board.

I have a Redcrest dinghy ... I've had that 1/2 inflated on foredeck of the 25 ... real PITA !! I also have a 2 man copy of Soviet army inflatable .... that could be partly inflated / folded similarly ... but still - PITA.... even on the 38.

For neatness of mount, stowage etc. - the purpose L/R has it beat.

Ok - let me touch on a matter that will create a fuss I know ... but bear with me.

A L/R has a life spec by the manufacturer of 15 - 18yrs usually. Servicing at 3yr intervals - then later annually. I fully support servicing and making sure L/R can do its job ... but lets consider the different demands made on it ...

If you are a long distance cruiser / live-aboard ... going significant distance offshore etc. Then maximum capability of the L/R is needed ... you need to be able to survive significant time before any rescue.
But if you are a coastal or Eng Channel / Baltic crossing boater - then the likelihood of quicker rescue.

This means the matter of equipment in the raft and its real use is different. I am not talking about the raft itself ... that has to be 100% in both ..

So lets assume you are a weekender who may cross Eng Channel ... go across to Gotland / Sweden etc. that means under 24hrs from any land area ... just an hour or so from shipping lanes ... do you need a fully serviced L/R ... as long as it is sound in construction ... it inflates on demand ... keeps you out of the water ... has a canopy that is easily seen etc. ???

Just questioning .... if a L/R is offered up less than 18yrs old ... and you are that coastal hopper ... do you really need to service annually etc. ? Don't shoot me for asking ... just posing the thought ...
I'm wondering if such raft can have a service or two skipped ..... maybe run over the 18yrs a bit - have the 18yr service ... but the L/R stay in use till 21 as example ??

 

[Lodestone]

My personal feeling is that the problem with a Fladen style suit is that it doesn't have watertight seals so will flood up and the user will experience cold water shock at first. It will remain buoyant of course which is a big plus but water will get in and surround the body and that water must first warm up. The suits have velcro anti-flush straps to help retain heat long term but these present their own problem - try getting out of the water with a suit full of it. It is also surprisingly hard to locate the straps to release when floating in one. Fladens are also quite sweaty after a few hours of wear on deck.

I think the best option for a suit that is water tight, warm and you can move, swim, get out of the water in (if your fingers retain dexterity long enough) and can be made breathable is actually a neoprene drysuit (compressed or otherwise), preferably a custom fit, with close fitting moulded boots. You can add gloves/mits/hood at 'leisure'. It will cost a lot but you can actually do something about your situation in it rather than being a cork. An expensive choice for a whole crew though.

There are plenty of truly excellent layered thermal systems available now which can be worn under your protective or flotation clothing to increase survival time but these gains will be marginal in comparison to keeping the water off you. You can grade layers to try to match the conditions and risk. A bit of winch work will soon prove how good they are!

All these suits mentioned take time to don though. If you wear them in anticipation they make any line work or winching a real effort.

 

[Corribee Boy]

My personal feeling is that the problem with a Fladen style suit is that it doesn't have watertight seals so will flood up and the user will experience cold water shock at first. It will remain buoyant of course which is a big plus but water will get in and surround the body and that water must first warm up. The suits have velcro anti-flush straps to help retain heat long term but these present their own problem - try getting out of the water with a suit full of it. It is also surprisingly hard to locate the straps to release when floating in one. Fladens are also quite sweaty after a few hours of wear on deck.

I think the best option for a suit that is water tight, warm and you can move, swim, get out of the water in (if your fingers retain dexterity long enough) and can be made breathable is actually a neoprene drysuit (compressed or otherwise), preferably a custom fit, with close fitting moulded boots. You can add gloves/mits/hood at 'leisure'. It will cost a lot but you can actually do something about your situation in it rather than being a cork. An expensive choice for a whole crew though.

There are plenty of truly excellent layered thermal systems available now which can be worn under your protective or flotation clothing to increase survival time but these gains will be marginal in comparison to keeping the water off you. You can grade layers to try to match the conditions and risk. A bit of winch work will soon prove how good they are!

All these suits mentioned take time to don though. If you wear them in anticipation they make any line work or winching a real effort.

I must confess to never having actually tried the Fladen suit - it just seemed better than nothing if I wasn't prepared to find the room for a liferaft. I'd be hoping that my PLB will conjur up a rescue quite quickly though, if I'm being honest, if my boat sank in much of my sailing area and I was in the water, I'd only have to stand up!

 

[fisherman]

I'm wondering if such raft can have a service or two skipped ..... maybe run over the 18yrs a bit - have the 18yr service ... but the L/R stay in use till 21 as example ??

My 1992 Plastimo was set aside in 2007. I fired it in about 2018. It failed due to faulty servicing, the bottle lanyard was set too long and the eye came up against the inside of the canister. After clearing that it fired fine. Would not have been much good if I was in the water trying to cut open the canister.

 

[Refueler]

My 1992 Plastimo was set aside in 2007. I fired it in about 2018. It failed due to faulty servicing, the bottle lanyard was set too long and the eye came up against the inside of the canister. After clearing that it fired fine. Would not have been much good if I was in the water trying to cut open the canister.

OK ... but that's faulty servicing - not failure of the L/R itself ... not really what I was posting on.

I hope you passed on that snippet to the Service ?? despite the time span ??

 

[Tranona]

Ok - let me touch on a matter that will create a fuss I know ... but bear with me.

A L/R has a life spec by the manufacturer of 15 - 18yrs usually. Servicing at 3yr intervals - then later annually. I fully support servicing and making sure L/R can do its job ... but lets consider the different demands made on it ...

If you are a long distance cruiser / live-aboard ... going significant distance offshore etc. Then maximum capability of the L/R is needed ... you need to be able to survive significant time before any rescue.
But if you are a coastal or Eng Channel / Baltic crossing boater - then the likelihood of quicker rescue.

This means the matter of equipment in the raft and its real use is different. I am not talking about the raft itself ... that has to be 100% in both ..

So lets assume you are a weekender who may cross Eng Channel ... go across to Gotland / Sweden etc. that means under 24hrs from any land area ... just an hour or so from shipping lanes ... do you need a fully serviced L/R ... as long as it is sound in construction ... it inflates on demand ... keeps you out of the water ... has a canopy that is easily seen etc. ???

Just questioning .... if a L/R is offered up less than 18yrs old ... and you are that coastal hopper ... do you really need to service annually etc. ? Don't shoot me for asking ... just posing the thought ...
I'm wondering if such raft can have a service or two skipped ..... maybe run over the 18yrs a bit - have the 18yr service ... but the L/R stay in use till 21 as example ??

As you can see from here https://www.force4.co.uk/department/safety/life-rafts/liferafts there are already 3 different levels of liferaft depending on area of operation and equipment. The basic coastal ones are the most common and all meet ISO standards. Plus the single tube "paddling pool with a tent" type aimed at coastal sailing in small boats. These are relatively new and I have not seen any reports of them in use. Given that they are the same price as the "proper" ISO rafts it is difficult to see apart from size and weight why one would buy one rather than the real thing. However, given that for many buying one is just to have something that makes one feel "safer" it is more easily tucked away for the 15 or 20 years it will lie unused!

On the questions of reliability and servicing, there is no way of knowing whether it will work until it is fired and as fisherman suggests even regularly serviced ones can fail. Indeed in my research of the MAIB reports on liferaft deployment during the 2000s the number of failures to deploy in both leisure and small commercial use (mainly fishing boats) was alarming.. to be fair this experience has led to significant improvements in both design and construction of rafts and it may well be that reliability has improved. However, at least in the UK the number of incidents involving leisure craft has also fallen dramatically for all the reasons I outlined earlier so not sure there will be much evidence of improvements or otherwise. On the other hand the sales of liferafts has increased enormously as prices have fallen dramatically in real terms. In money terms a basic raft is much the same price as it was 30 years ago - in real terms a more than 60% fall - and for a vastly improved product. Despite the need being at best unchanged (that is close to zero for most) it is clear that many consider them very good value for money - even if they will never be able to test their efficacy!

 

[Refueler]

As you can see from here https://www.force4.co.uk/department/safety/life-rafts/liferafts there are already 3 different levels of liferaft depending on area of operation and equipment. The basic coastal ones are the most common and all meet ISO standards. Plus the single tube "paddling pool with a tent" type aimed at coastal sailing in small boats.

Tranona - I am well aware of the different classes of L/R inventory etc. But as you show - the pricing is not so different between them.

I would suggest pricing is such because the majority are same or basically similar L/R - but with different equipment installed inside ... yes I know there are single skin / tube versions etc. But the difference of gear inside is not significant cost difference.

My point was that if the chances of quick rescue as in coastal hopping - then can we miss a few services ???

 

[Lodestone]

I must confess to never having actually tried the Fladen suit - it just seemed better than nothing if I wasn't prepared to find the room for a liferaft. I'd be hoping that my PLB will conjur up a rescue quite quickly though, if I'm being honest, if my boat sank in much of my sailing area and I was in the water, I'd only have to stand up!

A Fladen is a good start - I just wanted to flag up some of the other aspects of them. Many sports fishermen wear them, often for the thermal insulation on deck as much as anything else, and they will increase your survival chances in water. I've used them a lot in commercial settings and they are a good warm, buoyant boilersuit.

Could I recommend deck shoes/neoprene wet shoes and sealskins on your feet rather than wellies to help get that suit on faster. You should be able to just step into it with the right footwear. You will need thermal insulation on your hands feet and head. Base/mid layers from the likes of Rooster that work when wet (but are comfortable when dry) are excellent.

I would also suggest an AIS beacon for a faster response. Their range is limited over PLB's but the response should be faster. Anything with the speed to get to you quickly enough if you are in the water will most likely have AIS on board. I've been impressed by the couple of activations I've ended up diverting to.

It's a brave thing to do to take to the water unsupported - if you think how hard it is to spot a MOB even with aids like strobes, dan buoys etc. It will be a race against hypothermia or being overcome by waves. I think the only thing that might drive me to do that would be fire....or a crew mate that liked Celion Dion.

 

[pandos]

Thanks for the advice and I don’t disagree with any of the polarised positions.

I have deployed a life raft in anger when I planted Paean on a rock in Plymouth Harbour, in fog, at night. Of course lots of lessons learned since then. But I will add one before longer, most probably single or short handed passages.

So my questions remains, which? Any experience of quality and perceived reliability much appreciated.

And for the record I have a PLB and will either get a second for any crew or an epirb.

To answer the query actually asked...

Nothing will beat hands on examination of what is on offer in the chandlery or even a mooch around a boat yard and speaking to those who have one and are willing to let you examine and lift the thing.

I had a lifeguard 40s 6 man which was in a hard fiberglass cannister and it was heavy but easy enough to move around. (it was really suited to sitting it on deck under the boom, but would have been too large in a cockpit locker.)

My friend had another which was much chunkier and was very awkward to handle even though it was only a 4 man, but would have been ok in a locker but it would have needed a strap to haul it up out of it.

I have a Seago valise 4 person which has sagged into an awful shape and is almost like a barrel, so it is would be impossible to get out of a locker and could not be left on deck, but it sits happily on the bunk in my rear cabin.

If you think you want a LR good for you, go and get one and hopefully it will never be used in anger.