Lifting a MOB

[Roberto]

, simply by training your body through cold showers, or baths.

Should I try that I'd probably die before even being able to go back to the boat, problem solved.

Also, it'supposed to be pleasure sailing, I think I'd give up sailing altogether before getting involved in Mengele style practices.

 

[Refueler]

We tried it in warm Turkish waters, me the volunteer MOB, about 9 stone and lightly dressed, 3 people trying to get me out without me helping. The conclusion was don't fall in. If there are only 2 of us aboard the best plan we came up with was to launch the life raft and try to haul the casualty into it.

And that is in warm waters ...

The fact is that water is at lower temp than your blood ... its why Wetsuits and the ultimate Drysuits were designed. To reduce heat loss from the body while in water.

Even in warm water - you can actually end up Hypothermic as the water changes across body taking away heat .. till eventually you lapse into a state of not able to care or do anything ..

The body mechanism has a system that progressively shuts down systems to try and preserve - but its flawed .. those systems that shut down need to be restored within a very short time of that happening .. literally a few minutes.

Northern cold waters have a reputation of short time before this occurs ... when I did survival courses - North Sea / Irish Sea as examples were suggested to have a 4 minute period for average healthy person ... after that chances of survival are seriously reduced ..

I am no doctor or expert - far from it .. I am just passing on the teachings we had as MN Officers ..

 

[Refueler]

I have a Presentation Medal from the local Swimming Society who do winter meetings. I used to drone video their meetings ...

These people will enter water that I have no inclination whatsoever to get near to - let alone swim in.

Each event - a number of the members have had training in emergency First Aid to any that have problem .. to do all possible while waiting for Paramedics.

For those who post about this and that .. I look at that group .. remember my training and have to be honest and say - I hope that none of us on this thread or other ever have to recover a MOB. In my seagoing career - I was on two ships where we lost a person and never found them. One was ???? another was the person committed suicide. I never want to be in that situation again.

I wish you all the best with your chosen recovery method - but may I say this :

The MOB Lifesaver has been highlighted and I really like that idea - BUT watching the videos of the Soton Boat Show demos ... it is obvious that even they accepted that time and method of recovery are so varied ... The MOB Lifesaver allows to 'hook' the casualty ... the recovery is another matter. But its well worth consideration .. its on my list.

 

[thinwater]

We tried it in warm Turkish waters, me the volunteer MOB, about 9 stone and lightly dressed, 3 people trying to get me out without me helping. The conclusion was don't fall in. If there are only 2 of us aboard the best plan we came up with was to launch the life raft and try to haul the casualty into it.

9 stone (126 pounds)? Really? No PFD or harness? Should be dead easy to winch up.

 

[Refueler]

9 stone (126 pounds)? Really? No PFD or harness? Should be dead easy to winch up.

My Wife is ~55 - 60kgs ... and it took two of us with a lot of effort to get her onto the marina pontoon after she fell in off the bow of our boat.

The level of pontoon being significantly lower than gunwhale of the boat ...

Dead easy ???? I accept not winching - but surprisingly hard to do.

 

[Sandydog2]

9 stone (126 pounds)? Really? No PFD or harness? Should be dead easy to winch up.

It's not the winching. It's trying to get a safe way of lifting someone who is unconscious. Not that easy to get a line on them even in settled conditions. We were just doing it as a mob exercise but I would not want to be doing it for real even with a conscious casualty. It all took far too long. No I wasn't wearing a harness.

 

[Refueler]

It's not the winching. It's trying to get a safe way of lifting someone who is unconscious. Not that easy to get a line on them even in settled conditions. We were just doing it as a mob exercise but I would not want to be doing it for real even with a conscious casualty. It all took far too long. No I wasn't wearing a harness.

Sandy ... I'm with you ....

There will always be another who thinks its easy ... that's life and its illusionary aspect.

 

[penberth3]

Sandy ... I'm with you ....

There will always be another who thinks its easy ... that's life and its illusionary aspect.

That's where good training and good trainers can provide "food for thought" to anyone who thinks it's easy.

 

[William_H]

Regarding cold water shock, it is possible to proof yourself against cold water shock, simply by training your body through cold showers, or baths. It does work but takes frequent repetitions over months to establish the physiological, physiological memory.

Lots of articles in Google on how habituation can reduce cold water shock significantly.

There would be a lot to be said for occasionally jumping into the cold water. I think the shock of actually going under water and the cold can be debilitating in itself. A person used to jumping in the water will not be so shocked. Just plan for your escape from the water. ol'will

 

[thinwater]

I'm not sayin' getting a line on an unconscious person is easy. In real conditions, unless they have a harness or PFD/harness combo it's probably near impossible. Very likely someone will need to go in the water (tethered, obviously). If you sail in cold water you should have a dry suit or wet suit on board as a matter of basic seamanship. Obvious IMO. I do and it gets used for lines in the prop and other contingencies.

As for winching someone up, that is a matter of working out the mechanics. We've done it many times, with many victim sizes, and normally a large man/smaller woman winching, because that is better practice and better proves the point. Practicing small victim/big crew is pointless. If it is hard, it is set up wrong or the boat has very small winches. For example, you can double the advantage on a halyard by doubling the line and slipping a snatch/rescue block onto the bight.

As for manhandling someone up ... wet, heeling, slippery clothes, and bad weather. Horribly difficult even if small. No more than two people can practically get access, their leverage is bad, and on a boat, they are at risk of going in too.

As for difficulty getting back on your own boat after falling off in a marina, that means the boat is not compliant with ISO requirements for a ladder than can be deployed from the water by the swimmer. It should be an "oh oops" and a short swim to the ladder, not an ordeal. If it is an ordeal, then there is something you need to fix. This can happen at anchor. Very common.

 

[Juan Twothree]

There would be a lot to be said for occasionally jumping into the cold water. I think the shock of actually going under water and the cold can be debilitating in itself. A person used to jumping in the water will not be so shocked. Just plan for your escape from the water. ol'will

Whilst you can indeed become conditioned to cold water, it's important to start by GRADUALLY entering the water, not jumping.

Suddenly entering cold water shuts down peripheral circulation, causing a massive increase in blood pressure, which can lead to heart attack or stroke.

Cold Water Shock – the Facts

 

[thinwater]

Whilst you can indeed become conditioned to cold water, it's important to start by GRADUALLY entering the water, not jumping.

Suddenly entering cold water shuts down peripheral circulation, causing a massive increase in blood pressure, which can lead to heart attack or stroke.

Cold Water Shock – the Facts

Exactly. The other cold water trick, to damp the gasp reflex, is splashing ice water on the face only while in a safe position. Winter kayakers do this.

Also clothing that slows the entry of the cold water. That said, rain gear that is tightly cinched also HOLDS a great deal of water, which you will notice when lifting the person. 20-40 pounds is not unusual.

The UK presents a tough challenge, with warm air and cold water. It's hard to dress right. We only get that in late spring (Chesapeake Bay).

I'd like to see a study of clothing for cold water/warm-hot air. I really do not know. What is the best outfit for summer UK sailing with a tiny chance of falling in? Dinghy sailing is different.

 

[Cptsideways]

Last year I had to recover two elderly friends from a dinghy capsize, in Scotland, single handed onto our heavy inflatable. Hard hard work but managed it only just. I can't winch my other half up the mast with our single speeds, so no way will that work in the water. So this will require some serious thinking about a solution that will work easily on our high freeboarded boat.

Launching a liferaft is a really good idea,

 

[thinwater]

A common theme seems to be "elderly." I am not criticizing, as year by year, I resemble that.

As we get older our reflexes dull. Some of this is slower nerve conduction. Some of it is weakness. Some of it is sore joints, causing us to develop habits of conservative motion to protect them. The combined result is that we are not as good at quickly recovering balance. We hesitate for a critical fraction of a second, by which time it is too late. Conclusion? We need to plan our movements more carefully. I still rock climb regularly, because even difficult climbing is more about planning balance than recovering from imbalance. In fact, I can climb far more easily than I can walk on a loose cobble surface. I have to be very careful boarding a narrow sea kayak, but the paddling itself is not a problem, because the balance, even turns on the rail, is more planned. We need to be VERY CAREFUL around dinghies and icy docks, but we may be just as capable on deck in a blow, because we are planning and holding on, not relying on balance recovery.

The other problem is reboarding. Cold water is a problem. Fear and panic can be problems. We lose strength. But even more, we lose our water-play habits. We stop swimming, probably less common in Scotland anyway, for example, than Virginia. We stop swimming from dinghies and reboarding. Did we ever master popping out of the water and into the dinghy in one smooth motion? If we never had that strength or if our clothing is too restrictive, have we practiced ways to reboard in stages (throw up a leg and then roll in)? Have we practiced, in my case, reboarding a kayak from the water unassisted (I do several times every season)? Falling in the water should not automatically make you a helpless victim.

So we seem to lose both physical ability and certain skills that we had as kids but have not maintained. Even in the Virginia summer, it is the children that play in the water, not the adults, and thus the adults lose skills without even knowing it. The adults may lounge in the water, but they are not playing, climbing up and down off docks and jumping and horse playing. Maybe many adults never truly developed a full range of water skills. They can swim a few strokes in a pool, but not tread water for 30 minutes while physically scrubbing the boat in the water.

No insult intended at all--do we practice in-water skills?

 

[Graham_Wright]

Last year I had to recover two elderly friends from a dinghy capsize, in Scotland, single handed onto our heavy inflatable. Hard hard work but managed it only just. I can't winch my other half up the mast with our single speeds, so no way will that work in the water. So this will require some serious thinking about a solution that will work easily on our high freeboarded boat.

Launching a liferaft is a really good idea,

During my diving exploits, I found that recovery into a dinghy could be made easier by a "progressive" boarding. Person in the water places one arm over the sponson. Then, with help from the one (or several) on board a leg. The leg tends to float upwards which makes it easier. There is now a useful proprotion of the body weight taken care of. Furthermore, there is more of the body to grab hold of to complete the boarding.

 

[Refueler]

During my diving exploits, I found that recovery into a dinghy could be made easier by a "progressive" boarding. Person in the water places one arm over the sponson. Then, with help from the one (or several) on board a leg. The leg tends to float upwards which makes it easier. There is now a useful proprotion of the body weight taken care of. Furthermore, there is more of the body to grab hold of to complete the boarding.

The way we are taught in MN - is to turn person around so they face out away from dinghy ... then drag them in over gunwhale ... reason being that if wearing a Life Jacket - it will catch and hinder the lift....

 

[Alicatt]

During my diving exploits, I found that recovery into a dinghy could be made easier by a "progressive" boarding. Person in the water places one arm over the sponson. Then, with help from the one (or several) on board a leg. The leg tends to float upwards which makes it easier. There is now a useful proprotion of the body weight taken care of. Furthermore, there is more of the body to grab hold of to complete the boarding.

That is pretty much how we did it with my dory, get the gear off while in the water weightbelt, stab jacket, all passed up to the boatman then a duck and fin to get up out the water and try and roll into the boat, there was less freeboard on the dory than on a RIB so it was not too difficult getting people in and out the water, but I was younger and a lot fitter back then

I do remember going out with some French tourists that were friends of a friend, I was wearing my ND neoprene drysuit with just my trunks on underneath and I was getting over heated in the suit. It was a really hot summer's day for the far north of Scotland, we left Staxigeo and went south to Sarclet Harbour, about 12km or so south, on the way back we stopped under the cliffs at the Castle of Old Wick and I decided to take a dip to look at the old WW2 vehicles that were pushed off the cliff after the end of WW2.

Boy was it cold!

Even in the drysuit the cold penetrated right through in no time at all, I just went down and came straight back up again, was only about 15m or so, so not that deep but I still remember how cold that water was even 35 years later.

 

[ylop]

The way we are taught in MN - is to turn person around so they face out away from dinghy ... then drag them in over gunwhale ... reason being that if wearing a Life Jacket - it will catch and hinder the lift....

That's exactly what I've always found easier - even with swimmers (doing safety boat cover for swimming events), they don't have lifejackets on but just the way your legs end up sitting under the hull means you almost need to do forward roll to get in, but facing away from the boat its like being lifted from the floor to a seat. It also has the advantage that a panicky casualty is less able to grab the radio, throttle, kill cord, safety knife or anything else that might be a pain.

From a dinghy (or liferaft) you can also use momentum to your advantage. Bouncing the casualty up and down. BUT having got a casualty into your dinghy or liferaft they are still not back on board. You might be able to warm them up and then help aboard, but if they need CPR (or get worse and need CPR) the floor of a liferaft, or many dinghies will be too soft - and the space too crampt. Of course by that point the prospects aren't good anyway.

 

[thinwater]

Not to long ago, on some forum, there was a thread on "not falling off." He didn't exactly mean tethers either. His point was that many be more emphasis on avoiding risky behavior would pay better returns than talking about MOB. Sort of like defensive driving vs. first aid.

What practices cause MOBs? I once did a survey of a large group of F-boat (Farrier) sailors and racers. It was enlightening. Nearly all of the MOBS had just a few causes.

I wonder if this is the more fruitful discussion. How do people fall of docks (and don't just say carelessness)? Is there a best way to board a dinghy (I know there are good and bad ways with a sea kayak)? And falling from the deck, it's not random, there are specific acts that are high risk.

I'll start a new thread.

 

[Refueler]

'ylop'

You are touching on other points that are relevant but I left off - thinking it too deep for this thread.

With a casualty facing OUT - yes the legs then do not hinder by folding under the rescue boat ..
Panic is absolutely a factor with a conscious one - but of course with a semi - not so much ..
The life-jacket or any lift harness is usually more accessible at back ... giving you better grip to recover.

The Dunk and Pull is a manoeuvre taught us in MN ... to use the bouyancy of the Life Jacket to aid the lift and over ... but what is frightening to the casualty - conscious one of course - is that its not just one dunk - its a series to create a rhythm and little higher each time up ..

Finally the CPR part ... pulling them in facing out - they fall into the boat bottom right way up ready for you to kiss and make up ... instead of faffing about trying to get them turned over in cramped space... usually with a wobbly Life raft floor !!