Lifting a MOB

[ylop]

If it’s difficult, impossible, to become a statistic - the problems of retrieval do not apply.

it’s never impossible, so even if you’ve made it very unlikely - you need to consider how the lightest remaining crew will get back to the heaviest crew remember and get them back on board. If you are in the solent in summer, it might be that a DSC Mayday at the point of entry can get you help quicker than you can rig many recovery arrangements, but the OP is not.

 

[jlavery]

it’s never impossible, so even if you’ve made it very unlikely - you need to consider how the lightest remaining crew will get back to the heaviest crew remember and get them back on board. If you are in the solent in summer, it might be that a DSC Mayday at the point of entry can get you help quicker than you can rig many recovery arrangements, but the OP is not.

Our routine is always press the DSC Mayday as part of the initial actions. If all goes well, you can cancel. If it doesn't, you've alerted others of your predicament.

 

[Roberto]

Our routine is always press the DSC Mayday as part of the initial actions. If all goes well, you can cancel. If it doesn't, you've alerted others of your predicament.

Like they (SAR) say: better go back to port because the MOB has already been rescued, than arrive too late on the spot and having to recover a corpse.

When I have my daughters/friends onboard, 1st thing stop the boat, 2nd Red button +voice "confirm person overboard, only one/two people onboard, please come to help"

 

[geem]

If you have a rope drum on a deck mounted windlass, the spinnaker halyard around the rope drum will make a fast mob retrieval system. This will pull the MOB up midships where capshrouds etc provide good handholds to assist. Keeping the MOB away from stern and bow where injury can happen. This is our preferred method. It needs no special equipment other than the life sling. It's fast

 

[capnsensible]

Do you actually practice recovering a dummy (or similar water logged weight) back into the boat? Or just discuss it?

It’s only an “understand” at Comp Crew - and they might be the only people left on board… the wording the other syllabuses is sufficiently vague that I am fairly sure a lot of schools are using a bucket and fender and then talking about the practicalities of actually getting them on the boat - at least at DS. A YM examiner might be more rigorous, but by that point removing a sail or getting unfastening the main sheet is less daunting.

I have indeed used a dummy but under very controlled circumstances, for example on a military power boat course. And on another occasion trialing lots of techniques to be written up for a sailing magazine.

Practicalities of sailing courses are very much safety first so you have to take great care not to do a real injury. There are ways to coach this effectively.

First is never use a bucket tied to a fender. If you are practising 4 or 5 a day on a five day course, you will end up with a bucket handle and no bucket. Unless you use a stout builders bucket which means you will get gazillions of black scuff marks and scratches on your shiny school boat. Much better is a well secured old dockline.....3strand sinks when wet, secured to a couple of old fenders. This can live on your pushpit for easy deployment. And unexpectedly towards the end of the week as the students from competent crew upwards get good. Important to give them a go.....as you say, you may just have inexperienced people left onboard. So show them and get them to do it.

For the first actions of crash stop and returning to casualty under power and sail, the Danbuoy is great too. Means it can be easily recovered during the first training runs.

For recovery of your fender and rope coil, care must be taken. Best demonstrated on a reasonably calm day...can always find some shelter during a 5 day course.

You can be right with your student as you get them laying on the side deck clipped on to reach down and pass a sling around the mob. Don't forget, coded boats have bolt croppers, as did my liveaboard. So I the real event, you can chop through guardwires to reduce the height of lift. Then lift using halyard.

You only really need to demo this bit once per course. Taking time to brief it, carry it out and debrief afterwards gives all your students good awareness of the problems.

It's all about planning your teaching and making it as realistic as you can, safely.

Seeing your people develop over the course is the most rewarding part of the job!!

This is all stuff I've found works. Do ask if you got more questions, happy to talk about this.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

How does the MOB get in the lifesling if unable to help themself?

 

[wonkywinch]

I like the look of these, as demo'd on a recent Sailing Fair Isle.

POB Net

 

[Roberto]

I like the look of these, as demo'd on a recent Sailing Fair Isle.

POB Net

Along a similar principle, this "Markusnet"
Markusnet version MS.00 Sailing – Markus Lifenet

Problem is with danbuoy, throw bag, life sling, horseshoe buoy, fishing rod and thermal mug holder all hung up around the cockpit one runs short of space

 

[Juan Twothree]

Like they (SAR) say: better go back to port because the MOB has already been rescued, than arrive too late on the spot and having to recover a corpse.

When I have my daughters/friends onboard, 1st thing stop the boat, 2nd Red button +voice "confirm person overboard, only one/two people onboard, please come to help"

Absolutely correct. First of all call for help, assuming you've pressed the MOB button on your plotter, thrown them a line, deployed a marker buoy, or whatever.

In an ideal world you'll have the MOB back on board before the lifeboat has even launched.

Whereas if you've already been trying unsuccessfully to recover them for 10 or 15 minutes, THEN you call for help, that's time you can never get back.

 

[penberth3]

How does the MOB get in the lifesling if unable to help themself?

Obviously, they don't - they drown.

This is why you need harnesses with proper lifting points, i.e. not a bit of webbing on the back or front of the LJ

 

[ylop]

Don't forget, coded boats have bolt croppers, as did my liveaboard.

The interesting thing is what they take in, and what they remember months or years later, especially under stress may not be as much as we would hope! We have bolt croppers on board. My family's comp crew course did cover cutting away guard wires (although that boat had a "gate" so not sure it sunk in). Recently asked someone to get me the bolt croppers and it emerged they didn't actually remember what they were looking for.

Now whilst we are on the topic of MOB. My boat came with:
- Danbouy with light and horseshoe (and a spare light in a locker!). Its seen better days (I suspect the previous owner found it sticks out more than you think on a canal wall - as I did and made it worse) and will definitely be replaced the end of the season.
- A rescue "sling" with a long floating line attached to boat. Its presumably 20 yrs old - so I'm not averse to replacing it either.

Easy option is just to replace like with like... but I've seen a few much neater inflating ones... anyone got a view?

 

[Refueler]

We pulled a few soggy people out of marinas. Perks of living aboard. Often fallen due to being 'exuberant'.

Something that works is to untie a fender, get them to hold on and drag them to the easiest place to get out. Often a sugar scoop stern. Then the fun begins with 'no I'm fine, hic, thanks, hic, I'm gonna be alright, vom'.

Mine was frustration with a guy we rafted up to ..... he did everything possible short of throwing our lines in the water to prevent us coming alongside. I had no choice because when we tried the other boat - his high freeboard was forcing my stanchions / guardlines etc.
We made fast and he demanded extra fenders - we already have 4 out ... so I rigged and then said to wife - lets get away before I lose my temper ... stepped into dinghy then remembered I'd left the oars ... back on board for oars ... oars in dinghy ... stepped over - SPLASH.

He and another guy actually lifted me on board ... then he shouted out to all around - look at the beer cans in the cockpit ... there were 4 300ml of that 2% cheap Belgian / French Blonde beer ... 2 of which wife had drunk.

Later we understood why he didn't want anyone rafted up to them ... they were two guys of alternate persuasion. (Other guy was fine with us though - in fact apologised for his 'friend').

I have often asked myself after the event why I didn't try to clamber into the Avon I had just mistepped into ... but I seem to remember trying and couldn't get a grip to haul myself in.

 

[Refueler]

This is a very interesting point. The Channel has been swum ... and I hate swimming in cold water. I'm sure there are many factors, other than clothing:

• Are you fully warmed up when you went in? In the example I gave in another post I had been running around. Winter hunters and fisherman are often nearly hypothermic when they fall in.
• Is the person a strong swimmer. I don't mean a few laps in the pool, I mean ocean swimming in waves and breakers. It's different. It changes how your respond to being tossed upside down and I think also how you manage with clothes on. You are accustomed to a fight and to keeping your head together. Around here, many grew up surfing.
• Are you generating heat?

But I don't know. I do think being ready for a fight, and not being surprised by it, is important.

I've been in very cold water many, many times in a wet or dry suit. Totally different. Still darn cold on the face.

Channel swimmers are greased up so much - I know a team that covered one guy - they reckoned it would be impossible to handle the swimmer if needed due to the grease.
But that grease barely lasts the distance ..

I wonder if its the swimming action - which is exercising the muscles etc and generating heat ... whereas me as a MOB is near still hanging on ??

But in survival courses you are told not to move too much as you replace the water in-between clothes and body with cold etc.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Regarding cold water shock, it is possible to proof yourself against cold water shock, simply by training your body through cold showers, or baths. It does work but takes frequent repetitions over months to establish the physiological, physiological memory.

Lots of articles in Google on how habituation can reduce cold water shock significantly.

 

[Refueler]

Regarding cold water shock, it is possible to proof yourself against cold water shock, simply by training your body through cold showers, or baths. It does work but takes frequent repetitions over months to establish the physiological, physiological memory.

Lots of articles in Google on how habituation can reduce cold water shock significantly.

Close Russian friend of mine - used to the Sauna - then Cold Water plunge all his life ... died on the river here ....

He had a couple of vodkas inside ... fell out of the dinghy while fishing ... water was still cold from winter ... by time other guy grabbed him to try get back into dinghy .. Pavel was already dead.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Obviously, they don't - they drown.

This is why you need harnesses with proper lifting points, i.e. not a bit of webbing on the back or front of the LJ

I don’t agree. I sail in cold water and life jackets will always be worn. Folks are very likely to be incapacitated quickly and will not be able to put a lifting strop on or even connect a halyard or safety line to themselves or lifejacket.

The Lifesaver eliminates the need for the MOB to do anything once the vessel is back alongside.

I have the block and tackle, but pontoon neighbours with a larger yacht than mine, freeboard over 1.5m and use their powered winches for man overboard retrieval, didn’t know how to get the halyard to the person in the water. I introduced them to lifesavers, showed them the video of my wife recovering me, and as a result they bought them and fitted to lifejackets. Now they have a complete solution for MOB recovery.

There was an incident, on the east coast a few years ago, where a husband died because the wife could not get them back onboard, I may be miss remembering.

Personally, I think the Lifesaver is a must for any lifejacket. They are dyneema, hi vis, float, load tested, small diameter, long, hold open soft loop at end. Very easy to see and snag with boat hook, secure to vessel and then use to lift casualty in. My lifejackets have lifting strops, and the Lifesaver is connected to that.

For clarity, I have no association with the seller, manufacturer. Likely you could make your own but they are only £20 odd quid each and don’t expire.

Good thread this.

 

[Alicatt]

Only done cave rescues with the Scottish Cave Rescue Organisation, with a wet and cold environment hypothermia is a constant concern, the last practice I did with them was in Scotland's longest cave, about a mile underground and at the last point you can go in it without having to resort to diving gear. Our "victim" was ok for a while, there is a low duck at a sump near the entrance that you can just get your head out the water enough to breath when the water is low so we were all wet from that, and wearing neoprene wet suits under boiler suits standing around while getting organised makes you cold, you need to be active to keep the heat levels up in the wetsuits. Anyway, we got about 2/3rds of the way back to the surface when it went from a practice to a real situation, our victim was starting to go into hypothermic shock, he was a young lad and fit, early 20s, we had him wrapped in a neoprene blanket and he was firmly fixed in a Stokes stretcher, two of the team rushed him under his own power to the surface to get him warm while we selected another victim to continue on with the "rescue"
Without some way of keeping the heat in the person being rescued the chances of getting someone out alive from the end of that cave were pretty low. It also took a lot of teamwork with many hands to manoeuvre the stretcher through the passages, with some places having to find routes past the stretcher to keep the chain of passing the stretcher along going.
We were ably assisted my the Scottish Mountain Rescue Team on this particular exercise, some whom had never been underground before, still with more than 20 people underground getting the stretcher moved along, sometimes we could have done with more people.

The entrance to that cave is tight and twisting, a 48" chest size will not get through - it was attempted by the gentleman with the 48" chest - he is a big lad, neither would a stretcher with a person in it get through, we had enough trouble getting the stretcher in and out when it was empty.
The entrance has not been altered and it was concreted up to stabilise some of the boulders many years before, if it had been a real rescue a team would have to widen the entrance with the risk of totally blocking it.

 

[fearmhuir]

In case of hypothermia, remember it's better to lift someone as horizontal as possible. A lifting point at chest height plus a second one under the knees might prove useful.
Never tried though, mostly sail singlehanded.

As this is a Classics Regatta, there may be some 'Classics' on board as well? Older people are more susceptible to cold water shock, and also lose heat much more rapidly. As an instructor I have called unannounced MOB practice in lively weather, spinnaker up, and timed how long it took to recover the fender and rope 'casualty'. Nineteen minutes was the quickest time, as it's amazing how much distance you cover before the spinnaker is taken down and all ropes stowed.
In my 70s, after 19 minutes in cold water I would certainly be in the early stages of hypothermia, and being lifted 'straight up' out of the water could be fatal. Every advanced instructor's sea survival course stressed this. Floating in the water supports the blood in your body, making it easier for the heart to maintain blood pressure to the brain. Sudden vertical lifting puts huge strain on the heart which can have fatal consequences. Its a combination of fitness/age/time in water. The less fit and the older, the less time you have.
In the '79 Fastnet enquiry, evidence was given that casualties were alive and conscious when the helicopter swimmer attached the strop, but were dead by the time they reached the safety of the helicopter.
The importance of horizontal recovery - Dacon.
edit - Fastnet mentioned already

 

[thinwater]

Regarding cold water shock, it is possible to proof yourself against cold water shock, simply by training your body through cold showers, or baths. It does work but takes frequent repetitions over months to establish the physiological, physiological memory.

Lots of articles in Google on how habituation can reduce cold water shock significantly.

I read in a USCG study that dunking your face in ice water just 1-2 times per winter season greatly reduces the gasp reflex, which is a common cause of death in cold water drownings. This is why you often see cold season kayakers dunk their head or roll the boat before heading out. Same with windsurfers. I'm sure being out in cold, wet weather also helps.

 

[Sandydog2]

We tried it in warm Turkish waters, me the volunteer MOB, about 9 stone and lightly dressed, 3 people trying to get me out without me helping. The conclusion was don't fall in. If there are only 2 of us aboard the best plan we came up with was to launch the life raft and try to haul the casualty into it.