Panic! Do I need a courtesy flag for Wales?

Tryweryn

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As an English taxpayer you have not only paid for the original harbour construction but also it's maintenance ever since.

They should fly the English courtesy flag in appreciation, and, if not, stuff em.
William Alexander Madocks (17 June 1773 – September 1828)[1][2] was a landowner and Member of Parliament (MP) for the town of Boston in Lincolnshire from 1802 to 1820,[1] and then for Chippenham in Wiltshire from 1820 to 1826.[2] He is best known, however, for his activities as an agricultural improver in Gwynedd, especially around the towns of Porthmadog and Tremadog, both of which he founded.

Madocks' family originally came from Denbighshire although Madocks himself was brought up in London. As the youngest son he was not wealthy, but he had great vision. His ambition was to open up this part of Wales and raise its prosperity by improving road and later rail links and by introducing manufacture. The Union with Ireland of 1800 meant through traffic was now likely. He promoted the building of turnpike roads; and to avoid the dangerous crossing of the Traeth Mawr, the estuary of the Afon Glaslyn, or the long detour via Aberglaslyn bridge, he devised an ambitious scheme to build a great embankment across the Glaslyn estuary. This was to become part of a rail link across mid-Wales to Porth Dinllaen (now owned by the National Trust) on the Llŷn Peninsula which he hoped would become the main port for Dublin from London and the south of England. At that time the Menai Strait and the River Conwy were not bridged, but later his rivals succeeded in promoting the North Wales coast route and Holyhead became the principal port for Ireland.

In the autumn of 1811 the embankment, known as the Cob, was finished. It had taken longer and cost more than anticipated, and Madocks’ creditors were pressing for payment. Now, an end to the financial worries seemed assured, with a toll from foot passengers and carriages, and the income from the reclaimed land. A four day feast and Eisteddfod was held to celebrate the Cob's completion.

Then in February 1812 high tides and a storm breached it. Madocks' agent and supporters held the creditors at bay, drummed up men and money from all around the county and finally repaired the breach and strengthened the whole embankment. By 1814 it was open again. But Madocks' finances were in ruins and all his properties were mortgaged. In 1821, he obtained an Act for a harbour at Ynys y Tywyn, to be renamed Port Madoc. By 1824, he was surveying the possible train routes from Porthmadog to the new slate quarries at Blaenau Ffestiniog. Within a generation, the harbour was busy, with slates from Blaenau Ffestiniog reaching the harbour via the Cob, carried by the Ffestiniog Railway. This commerce fuelled the growth of Porthmadog.

In 1826 Madocks and his family travelled to Italy for a holiday. Madocks wrote home frequently, sending instructions to John Williams for the preparation of their new house Morfa Lodge, (now Gelli Fair) above Porthmadog, for their return. But on the way home in 1828 Madocks died suddenly in Paris. He was buried on 17 September in the Père Lachaise cemetery, Paris. His daughter Eliza Anne (Maria) Ermine was only six, so his estate was held in trust until she came of age. His wife returned to her childhood home near Brecon leaving the estate to be split by those who had helped finance Madocks’ ventures. The memorial to this remarkable man is the little town of Tremadog, still near-perfect in its design and setting.

Excerpt from A Brief History of Tremadog by Cyfeillion Cadw Tremadog
 

Tryweryn

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In a certain mini-market in N Wales my wife was collecting goods for the boat.
As she entered, staff started talking in 'Welsh' rather than English.

My wife, being an American citizen rather than English, (but the locals took her for English) went along with this, and then, at the till, asked for the bill, and offered to pay, in Gaelic currency.
Fecked!

Ever seen a Welsh sign asking for money in Welsh?
As a fluent Welsh speaker what do you think we all speak at home. If you think Welsh change the language when you walk into a room. Can I recomend that you see a doctor for paranoid delusion. We have been speaking it for thousands of years. It is a real shame that many people come to Wales and everybody is welcome and fine. This comment is just plain daft. You hang what flag you want up. Its the old story. Treat people with respect and you get it back. You failed.
 

Tryweryn

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My name is 'McGillicuddy'

What Celtic heritage do you claim?

If Welsh is 'their first language' - why were they speaking English as we walked in and why are all their prices in English?

If they don't have their own currency, why should they decry English money?
I think first of all you have a hangup. Most times people say "they changed to welsh", they were not speaking it in the first, it is called paranoid delusion. Second signs would be in Welsh....it's Wales. The prices are often in English as it sounds like a tourist place and people such as yourself dont understand. We get thousands of English in Wales everyday as does gaelic Scotland and Ireland. No problem we all have a laugh in the pub and get on fine. Maybe you have a problem mixing and would have the same problem in Blackpool. 99.9% of people get on. Worlds to small to argue. But cheese any one off and they get upset....of which you have a gift.
 

Tryweryn

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I've been shopping in Wales for 50 odd years now & never noticed that. They will speak English to English customers but then revert, naturally to their native tongue. I'm always flattered when they think I am a local.

McGillicuddy, my paternal heritage traces to Cork, 3 generations back, my name is Kean.

Hit it on the nail well done. Its called bi lingualism. The ability to chop and change in a second. To none welsh speakers they speak english changing in a second to welsh when speaking to welsh. Well spotted and what a nice person you are lol:p
 

Tryweryn

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I have a lot of sympathy with that hotel manager. You can't run any organisation when the staff are speaking a language you cannot understand and behind your back. If it were, say, a French chef working in Germany you might expect the chef to learn German but this is not a parallel case. The staff are English speaking and they are choosing to speak Welsh out of disrespect to their boss. There can be no other reason.

But then N Wales has a bit of a rep for this, and I've seen it myself. They are all happily speaking English when you go into a bar but as soon as they hear you they switch to Welsh. Oddly the same thing has never happened to me here in S Wales.

Sad. It's great that the Welsh have such pride in their culture and language. I support the bilingual road signs / documentation we get here. But this hotel has a management problem that is nothing to do with Welsh culture or English domination or any of the other hackneyed jingoistic phrases.
It shows your not to bright as the staff in that area speak english seldom. Why would he come to a welsh area and assume they will give up the language for one man. He learnt the hard way, but he learnt lol.;)
 

Tryweryn

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The first language of this country, the UK , is English. But that really isnt the point. Its a management matter in the case quoted and something management are perfectly entitled to insist on in their workplace.

For example, in an Italian restaurant in the UK they might well insist on speaking Italian only in the kitchen as a practical matter.




If you can speak a language and choose not to despite one of your number then not being able to join in / understand you, then at best it's bl**dy bad manners and at worst its deliberately being difficult. I suppose its up to you if you decide to do so socially, but its a company policy issue if you try to do it at work.
Sorry it is not. Welsh in Wales is the first language in this area and is valid in courts on legal documentation. lol You should learn Urdu in England as you will need it soon lol.
 

Tryweryn

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Sorry Vyv but this really does happen. I have loads of Welsh friends and have no axe to grind - the South Welsh (in general) are much more naturally friendly but I once lived in Chester and often went for days out in North Wales and in *many cases* experienced the "they were speaking English we went went into their pub/cafe/shop but switched to Welsh when I and various friends entered scenario. It really does happen.Even when you are about to spend money in their business.

Once I was with a Welsh friend, who spoke fairly fluent Welsh and this happened and she had a go at the them in Welsh - most amusing.

I have never had this happen in South Wales - or indeed anywhere else in the world. In fact the opposite - I work with a lot of Indians in England - they often have social conversations in various languages and as I walk in switch to English so as not to exclude me.

Sorry if you just don't believe this happens - but it does.
I rather think this is a figment of your imagination.
 

Danny Jo

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I rather think this is a figment of your imagination.
I agree, but the myth of "they were speaking English when I arrived, and immediately switched to Welsh" is so widespread that I suspect there must be something behind it - I think that people are misconstruing the good manners of Welsh speakers.

When a newcomer arrives in a pub or shop or other gathering of native Welsh speakers, it is assumed that he is an English speaker, so the newcomer is greeted in English. When the pleasantries, discussion of the weather, etc, are over, they resume what they were doing before the stranger arrived - discussing the behaviour of elected representatives, the price of lambs at market, the fate of Dolgellau hospital, or whether neutrinos travelling faster than light will overturn everything we know about the natural world. Only in the case of the last of these is English likely to be used.

I have been in North West Wales, where at least 50% of the population are first language Welsh speakers, for close on 20 years. Being of a certain age and wearing a flat hat, I tend to get mistaken for an elderly farmer and addressed in Welsh, which I regard as a compliment.

I have experienced the language issue as an occasional source of awkwardness in social gatherings of work colleagues, for example when I was the only non-Welsh speaker among 15 or so at a Christmas dinner. The awkwardness was felt by me, because colleagues in my vicinity were obliged to switch to English whenever I was being included in the conversation. English for these people is often the language of commerce and science, whilst Welsh is the language of home, recreation and love.
 

Tmacd

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I agree, but the myth of "they were speaking English when I arrived, and immediately switched to Welsh" is so widespread that I suspect there must be something behind it.

Myth? Not in my personal experience! I, with a former school-mate, back in the early 70s, visited a pub on the Lleyn peninsula, run by another ex-schoolmate's father. Being 'not of the lounge bar' type we went into the public bar, and that is exactly what happened. I understand English, I don't understand Welsh, but we didn't even have to open our mouths, they saw the (English) landlord's son! English change instantly to Welsh, which was spoken continually until we left. Whether they continued after that, I know not and care less! We went to the Lion at Tudweiliog for the rest of the night!

Curiously enough, a year later, we sailed (the same three of us +1) into Eilean Iarman (IsleOrnsay) on Skye, with a punctured inflatable. The bar at the time was still a wooden lean-to shed with a hand-painted 'Am Bothan' sign outside, so that would date it for anyone who knows (1974/75?). We were desperate for some rubber solution (the stuff in the charter yacht's repair kit was solid) and were told to phone 'the garage', as they'd be in later for a pint! We hoped someone would, as we were the only ones there at 5pm! After rowing back out for a bite to eat, then ashore again (with one crew member pumping the bellows as fast as he could to keep us afloat) the rubber solution was behind the bar, and they'd 'be in again later for a pint'. This time, when we entered all the locals were speaking in Gaelic, BUT, as soon as we spoke in English, they, to a man, followed suit and used English. I never heard the Gaelic spoken for the rest of the night. And, what's more the 'garage man' from Ardvasar didn't want to be made known, so we never even got to buy him a beer! Whoever you are, I still owe you one!
 
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Tryweryn

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Danny nice to meet you. Science and commerce in wales is done internally in Welsh and externaly english. Some might argue American english. I think it shows how nice welsh speakers are to switch to english when english are around. I usually speak in English to the english but if i person speaks welsh i use the welsh. I remember one guy saying to me once, "why should i learn welsh, as you all speak english". Well guess what since then I dont unless they are a very nice person. Welsh chop and change as they see need. They have the right to choose whatever language they want. If you dont like it dont come or buy a phrase book. Not you Danny the few trolls on here. Most English enjoy wales and its good to mix etc. But a few trolls here would rather whinge about themselves than talk about boats. In Nant Peris the whole village turned out for an Englishman, why, because he was a nice guy. Pulled three tourists out of the snow last week, no charge lol Never asked if they were english although they were. We even had a laugh. But I kinda feel the ones trolling on here would have a problem with scottish irish or even cornish and would like to sit in the english bubble. Got news for you lol your neighbour will now probably be polish, asian etc so get used to the fact english isnt the be all and end all.:eek:
 
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Chrusty 1

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In a certain mini-market in N Wales my wife was collecting goods for the boat.
As she entered, staff started talking in 'Welsh' rather than English.

My wife, being an American citizen rather than English, (but the locals took her for English) went along with this, and then, at the till, asked for the bill, and offered to pay, in Gaelic currency.
Fecked!

Ever seen a Welsh sign asking for money in Welsh?

One always hears that old bollix trotted out, did it never occur to you or your wife that in fact, they just started speaking as she entered the shop, and were in fact just speaking their native language. In answer to your last question yes I have.

It was please pay on the way out. It was in a car park.
 
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Chrusty 1

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Danny nice to meet you. Science and commerce in wales is done internally in Welsh and externaly english. Some might argue American english. I think it shows how nice welsh speakers are to switch to english when english are around. I usually speak in English to the english but if i person speaks welsh i use the welsh. I remember one guy saying to me once, "why should i learn welsh, as you all speak english". Well guess what since then I dont unless they are a very nice person. Welsh chop and change as they see need. They have the right to choose whatever language they want. If you dont like it dont come or buy a phrase book. Not you Danny the few trolls on here. Most English enjoy wales and its good to mix etc. But a few trolls here would rather whinge about themselves than talk about boats. In Nant Peris the whole village turned out for an Englishman, why, because he was a nice guy. Pulled three tourists out of the snow last week, no charge lol Never asked if they were english although they were. We even had a laugh. But I kinda feel the ones trolling on here would have a problem with scottish irish or even cornish and would like to sit in the english bubble. Got news for you lol your neighbour will now probably be polish, asian etc so get used to the fact english isnt the be all and end all.:eek:

+1 from an Englishman.
 

Tryweryn

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One always hears that old bollix trotted out, did it never occur to you or your wife that in fact, they just started speaking as she entered the shop, and were in fact just speaking their native language. In answer to your last question yes I have.

It was please pay on the way out. It was in a car park.
Chrusty 1 rocks lol and a bara brith is on the way;)
 
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Chrusty 1

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Chrusty 1 rocks lol and a bara brith is on the way;)

I wish it was, I am quite partial to a bit of Bara Brith! I lived in N. Wales for a while as a young man, I loved it, and I liked the people very much. What I don't understand is, if some of these posters don't like Wales, and don't like the Welsh people, why the feck do they go there!???

PS I did have a bash at learning Welsh, I didn't do very well I'm afraid.....
 

Tryweryn

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I wish it was, I am quite partial to a bit of Bara Brith! I lived in N. Wales for a while as a young man, I loved it, and I liked the people very much. What I don't understand is, if some of these posters don't like Wales, and don't like the Welsh people, why the feck do they go there!???

PS I did have a bash at learning Welsh, I didn't do very well I'm afraid.....
There in lies the problem they seem to like to whinge. best they stay home and lock the doors or the nasty world will get them. Glad you enjoyed it in Wales. I often think such people would like to eradicate all other cultures and live in the bubble lol. What part did u live in were up the mountains by Rhyd ddu?:)
 

Heckler

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Myth? Not in my personal experience! I, with a former school-mate, back in the early 70s, visited a pub on the Lleyn peninsula, run by another ex-schoolmate's father. Being 'not of the lounge bar' type we went into the public bar, and that is exactly what happened. I understand English, I don't understand Welsh, but we didn't even have to open our mouths, they saw the (English) landlord's son! English change instantly to Welsh, which was spoken continually until we left. Whether they continued after that, I know not and care less! We went to the Lion at Tudweiliog for the rest of the night!

Curiously enough, a year later, we sailed (the same three of us +1) into Eilean Iarman (IsleOrnsay) on Skye, with a punctured inflatable. The bar at the time was still a wooden lean-to shed with a hand-painted 'Am Bothan' sign outside, so that would date it for anyone who knows (1974/75?). We were desperate for some rubber solution (the stuff in the charter yacht's repair kit was solid) and were told to phone 'the garage', as they'd be in later for a pint! We hoped someone would, as we were the only ones there at 5pm! After rowing back out for a bite to eat, then ashore again (with one crew member pumping the bellows as fast as he could to keep us afloat) the rubber solution was behind the bar, and they'd 'be in again later for a pint'. This time, when we entered all the locals were speaking in Gaelic, BUT, as soon as we spoke in English, they, to a man, followed suit and used English. I never heard the Gaelic spoken for the rest of the night. And, what's more the 'garage man' from Ardvasar didn't want to be made known, so we never even got to buy him a beer! Whoever you are, I still owe you one!
You are wrong and im not a lover of Plaid Cymru either!
In north west wales they speak welsh as their first language, they go to school and learn in the welsh language medium. In other words if no one is speaking english, they speak welsh, they articulate themselves better in welsh. If they speak english to you they are doing you a courtsey, they would then go backto speaking welsh amongst themselves.
stu
 

Tmacd

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You are wrong .............

How on earth can you possibly comment when all I did was give an honest account of what actually happened? My friend (the landlord's son) said it happened all the time in that particular bar.

When we moved down to the Lion at Tudweiliog, however, things were totally different, some used Welsh, some used English, no problems at all. My point was that I had personally experienced 'The Myth'!

And to put it into perspective, I am a Scot and an ardent supporter of indigenous language, including Welsh! It's the attitude on the occasion I took objection to! And would again!
 
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