MikeJ42
New member
Goodness me, I wouldn't feel worthy of commenting on a Broom, I know my place and would be too busy donning my cap and ensuring that I don't inadvertently turn my back...
Opinions on Sealine 305 Statesman
- Thread starter SimonBunker
- Start date
Goodness me, I wouldn't feel worthy of commenting on a Broom, I know my place and would be too busy donning my cap and ensuring that I don't inadvertently turn my back...
ian38_39
New member
As a Sealine 310 statesman owner running twin V6 431b 205hp engines I would say think about what you are going to use it for and take disparaging comments with a pinch of salt.
I honestly think there is something in the protect our investment line regarding those that have spent more and that also runs to the diesel and petrol argument.
Petrol,
Not sure about the V8's but ours clocked 1.55 miles per gallon at 20 knots cruise on a recent 350mile round trip from the Broads to St kats London and back again with lots of stop off's along the way. Think you will find this compares pretty favourably with the likes of a Failine Corniche with shafts and AD41s. The big issue is availability and price waterside. we filled up at two different places waterside paying only a couple of pence a litre premium over the surrounding petrol stations but this is fairly rare and even then it involved planning the trip around fuel stops, common practice obviously but with petrol the fuel stops are a lot more limited.
Inland, being based on the Norfolk Broads we also use the boat on the Southern Broads, tend to just run the one engine and at river speeds (6 knots) we will burn around 6 litres and hour, that should compare pretty favourably to a decent sized diesel engined shaft drive boat.
Reliability,
I have a theory on this after hearing so many people (admittedly Diesel Owners) go on about petrol engines being unreliable.
Petrol boats are a lot cheaper to buy in the first place, as they get older they fall more easily into the reach of those without the means to maintain a boat than their diesel counterparts, this is compounded by the fact that boating is prejudice against petrols so anyone already owning a boat will have been brainwashed that diesel is the only option, meaning it is people without boating knowledge that buy them.
As a result petrols are often very poorly maintained, I know there are bad diesel boats but when we were buying our current boat 3 years ago we were appalled at the general standard of the petrol boats we looked at, far worse than the general standard of the diesel stock. For that reason you are going to have to be a lot more thorough with your pre purchase investigations.
We have now owned 2 petrol boats over 5 years, suffered exactly 0 breakdowns and enjoyed quiet, smoke free, reliable and inexpensive boating from them, but then we have maintained them properly. Most of the safety argument is also taken care of with the same argument by proper maintenance of the fuel system but there is obviously an increased risk by transferring and storing a more volatile substance.
Sealines,
Can only speak from experience but both of mine have been great, no problems so to speak other than silly niggles but surely that has to be expected on boats that are nearly 20 years old and during my ownership neither have suffered from falling apart hulls, maybe someone glued them back together earlier but as I boat a lot with other Sealine owners and they have not experienced the magnitude of problems that are purported to exist I can only assume that the justification for paying more has something to do with it.
310 Statesman,
Exactly the same boat as the 305 with the superstructure rounded off, as has been said outdrives are not ideal for flybridge boats, the boat does tend to be a bit tippy and require a lot of attention to tabs, you do get used to the amount of lean and leave it at strange angles rather than be constantly correcting but it may well frighten your passengers if you adopt this principle.
There is a lot of windage and the bow is very light, bow thruster would be helpful in close quarter manoeuvring but we have never had one and it does teach you to use the prevailing conditions to your advantage. nothing is overly difficult once you are sure of what you are doing but learning can be a bit fraught.
On the river it will wander a fair bit and need plenty of correction, at speed I have never had an issue but you will change direction with the waves more than a shaft drive bigger boat, you do have to keep a keen eye on where you are going in all but the calmest conditions. The good thing is they will get you home safely in the worst of conditions, you will just feel as though you have been through a spin cycle on your washing machine.
Overall,
we have been over the moon with our 310 statesman, including the petrol engines, yes availability is a pain as is the amount of fuel jerry canned to the boat but the peace of mind they offer against the potential cost of diesel boating has been worth it.
The normal argument goes something like, petrol boats are to expensive and break down a lot before exploding in a fireball.
The reality is, safe if treated with care and properly maintained, reliable again under the same proviso, major parts are a fraction of the price of diesel parts (engine about 1/3 price, fuel pump 1/10th, no Turbo etc) again you will hear that diesels last much longer and don't stop but at 20 years old they do and when they do they cost bucket loads.
Think about how and where you will use the boat, if you are going to be on the river with occasional excursions to sea and are happy to collect your fuel on the way to the boat I do not see a problem with petrol engines or the boat. If you are going to cross the Atlantic get something with sails and if you are going to use it 100% at sea get a diesel or get loads more money and buy something bigger and newer. If however you have a limited budget like me you will be hard pressed to find a better flybridge boat for the money.
Ian
I honestly think there is something in the protect our investment line regarding those that have spent more and that also runs to the diesel and petrol argument.
Petrol,
Not sure about the V8's but ours clocked 1.55 miles per gallon at 20 knots cruise on a recent 350mile round trip from the Broads to St kats London and back again with lots of stop off's along the way. Think you will find this compares pretty favourably with the likes of a Failine Corniche with shafts and AD41s. The big issue is availability and price waterside. we filled up at two different places waterside paying only a couple of pence a litre premium over the surrounding petrol stations but this is fairly rare and even then it involved planning the trip around fuel stops, common practice obviously but with petrol the fuel stops are a lot more limited.
Inland, being based on the Norfolk Broads we also use the boat on the Southern Broads, tend to just run the one engine and at river speeds (6 knots) we will burn around 6 litres and hour, that should compare pretty favourably to a decent sized diesel engined shaft drive boat.
Reliability,
I have a theory on this after hearing so many people (admittedly Diesel Owners) go on about petrol engines being unreliable.
Petrol boats are a lot cheaper to buy in the first place, as they get older they fall more easily into the reach of those without the means to maintain a boat than their diesel counterparts, this is compounded by the fact that boating is prejudice against petrols so anyone already owning a boat will have been brainwashed that diesel is the only option, meaning it is people without boating knowledge that buy them.
As a result petrols are often very poorly maintained, I know there are bad diesel boats but when we were buying our current boat 3 years ago we were appalled at the general standard of the petrol boats we looked at, far worse than the general standard of the diesel stock. For that reason you are going to have to be a lot more thorough with your pre purchase investigations.
We have now owned 2 petrol boats over 5 years, suffered exactly 0 breakdowns and enjoyed quiet, smoke free, reliable and inexpensive boating from them, but then we have maintained them properly. Most of the safety argument is also taken care of with the same argument by proper maintenance of the fuel system but there is obviously an increased risk by transferring and storing a more volatile substance.
Sealines,
Can only speak from experience but both of mine have been great, no problems so to speak other than silly niggles but surely that has to be expected on boats that are nearly 20 years old and during my ownership neither have suffered from falling apart hulls, maybe someone glued them back together earlier but as I boat a lot with other Sealine owners and they have not experienced the magnitude of problems that are purported to exist I can only assume that the justification for paying more has something to do with it.
310 Statesman,
Exactly the same boat as the 305 with the superstructure rounded off, as has been said outdrives are not ideal for flybridge boats, the boat does tend to be a bit tippy and require a lot of attention to tabs, you do get used to the amount of lean and leave it at strange angles rather than be constantly correcting but it may well frighten your passengers if you adopt this principle.
There is a lot of windage and the bow is very light, bow thruster would be helpful in close quarter manoeuvring but we have never had one and it does teach you to use the prevailing conditions to your advantage. nothing is overly difficult once you are sure of what you are doing but learning can be a bit fraught.
On the river it will wander a fair bit and need plenty of correction, at speed I have never had an issue but you will change direction with the waves more than a shaft drive bigger boat, you do have to keep a keen eye on where you are going in all but the calmest conditions. The good thing is they will get you home safely in the worst of conditions, you will just feel as though you have been through a spin cycle on your washing machine.
Overall,
we have been over the moon with our 310 statesman, including the petrol engines, yes availability is a pain as is the amount of fuel jerry canned to the boat but the peace of mind they offer against the potential cost of diesel boating has been worth it.
The normal argument goes something like, petrol boats are to expensive and break down a lot before exploding in a fireball.
The reality is, safe if treated with care and properly maintained, reliable again under the same proviso, major parts are a fraction of the price of diesel parts (engine about 1/3 price, fuel pump 1/10th, no Turbo etc) again you will hear that diesels last much longer and don't stop but at 20 years old they do and when they do they cost bucket loads.
Think about how and where you will use the boat, if you are going to be on the river with occasional excursions to sea and are happy to collect your fuel on the way to the boat I do not see a problem with petrol engines or the boat. If you are going to cross the Atlantic get something with sails and if you are going to use it 100% at sea get a diesel or get loads more money and buy something bigger and newer. If however you have a limited budget like me you will be hard pressed to find a better flybridge boat for the money.
Ian
SimonBunker
New member
Thanks everyone for all your help and advice, it has been most useful. I will continue my search and see what I can come up with. Apologies for sparking a debate on the build issues of Sealine - that was not my intention.
Thanks again and I will keep you posted on what I finally purchase
Thanks again and I will keep you posted on what I finally purchase
MikeJ42
New member
Don't apologise, I think we all thoroughly enjoy the opportunity to deconfuse each other.
blueglass
New member
as others have said petrol engined boats that size are awesome in fuel costs. A bit less so with new fuel prices which have clouded the difference between petrol/diesel to some small extent but even so.......
I was told all this many years ago when I bought a fairline 32 ft flybridge with twin 175 volvo petrols. I was swayed by the fact that because it was so cheap I could have a much much newer boat. It was a mistake. Once the purchase period is over, the daily running costs are what you pay out of your readies (as opposed to finance or savings) and trust me - it wil hurt a lot and you won't use the boat as much as you should. Either go smaller or go diesel.
Also whichever you get - look very long and very hard at the outdrives. On an older boat they are notoriously unreliable and almost as expensive to maintain as the fuel bills.
I was told all this many years ago when I bought a fairline 32 ft flybridge with twin 175 volvo petrols. I was swayed by the fact that because it was so cheap I could have a much much newer boat. It was a mistake. Once the purchase period is over, the daily running costs are what you pay out of your readies (as opposed to finance or savings) and trust me - it wil hurt a lot and you won't use the boat as much as you should. Either go smaller or go diesel.
Also whichever you get - look very long and very hard at the outdrives. On an older boat they are notoriously unreliable and almost as expensive to maintain as the fuel bills.
ari
Well-known member
Really?
According to this months MBM:
Fairline Squadron 42 £369,185
Sealine F42 £367,775
Second-hand of course, different matter. You're quite correct that Fairlines and Princess command far higher resale prices.
Wonder why..?
ari
Well-known member
And to answer the original post, depends entirely how much it is and what sort of condition it's in.
If it's (say) reasonably tidy and £10,000 then it's a hell of a lot of boat for the money, buy, factor the massive running costs against money saved buying, and be prepared to similarly "give it away" when you sell it and you shouldn't lose anything.
On the other hand if it's a bit unloved forget it, it'll cost you more to maintain and run than is ever relevant to the price, and if it's (say) £30K forget it, you're too close to the price of a decent/diesel boat and you'll never shift it again for anything like when you get tired of hosing hundreds and hundreds of pounds away every weekend.
In short, it's either a bit of cheap fun that you can enjoy and move on from at not too much cost, or it's a potential moneypit.
Without knowing what it's up for and whether it's in reasonable order it's impossible to advise.
ian38_39
New member
You could also look at Last months YBW where the Sealine F42 was tested and where they concluded that the build quality design and ride exceeded that of the new Fairline Squadron 42 but we are talking here about 20 years ago when Princess and Fairline built heavy and expensive, Sealine built light and less expensive
ian38_39
New member
out of interest what MPG do people on here running 34' flybridge diesel boats get at say a 22 knot cruise speed?, just interested as my super fuel hungry petrols do 1.55 mpg
ari
Well-known member
Well, they're certainly not "less expensive" any more, that's for sure...
ari
Well-known member
That seems very good. My maths is rubbish, am I right in saying that's 15 gallons per hour?
I used to get 12GPH from a Princess 266 Riviera with twin Volvo 205's. A later Fairline 35 Targa with twin 200hp diesels got almost exactly the same GPH, but the cost was phenomenally less.
Not sure how prices equate currently, but at the time our local fuel station was charging a 50p/gallon premium over road prices for petrol. Diesel of course was considerably cheaper, so we saved a fortune in fuel costs yet were running a far more substantial boat.
It'd be interesting to know what current marine fuel (petrol and diesel) costs per gallon are, because if we assume 10GPH for your boat with diesels (fairly realistic I'd guess) then we could work out the per hour running cost difference (which is the important figure, rather than fuel consumption).
I do agree that there is a place for petrol boats however, provided the initial cost of the boat provides a great enough saving.
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MikeJ42
New member
The SIBS 'boat as seen' prices where £456K for the Sealine and £504K for the Fairline. The 'base book' price means little.
Thats why they command higher 2nd hand prices, cos they cost more new.
MikeJ42
New member
Yes they are. That's why the last 2 I have bought have been Sealine. Believe me, I tried very hard to go down the Princess or Fairline route. When you spec them up, the Princesses and Fairlines get expensive.
I bought the last F42/5 (I think) off the production line a couple of months ago. However, if cost was no object I would have bought a Princess 42. I thought it was a better boat…but it cost too much!
ari
Well-known member
The "base book" price reflects the cost before the boat is loaded with extras.
If the Fairline had a lot more extras, and/or bigger engines then it would indeed be dearer yes.
Fact is, strip off the extras and you've the two boats are at the same price point, remarkably...
Second-hand values reflect what a person is prepared to pay for the boat at that point in time, no reflection on new cost, other than where a higher new cost is justified by increased quality or value that the used buyer still recognises and is prepared to pay for, perhaps a premium for bigger engines or better build quality for instance.
If (for example) you decided to pay a lot extra for your brand new boat to have a slightly different coloured hull that appealled to you specifically, then a used buyer isn't automatically going to pay more for it just because the new price was higher when you bought it (unless he see's the value in it and also considers it worth a premium).
ari
Well-known member
I can understand that the last of the old model would be cheaper, probably a good buy that.
However the current 42ft Sealine appears to be virtually the same money as the current 42ft Fairline.
MikeJ42
New member
If you sit down and spec the new F42 and new Squadron 42 roughly the same, the Fairline costs lots more. I did it. Every single thing just cost that bit extra on the Fairline.
I don’t blame Fairline for engineering their headline price to be the same as the Sealine. BMW do it. If you buy a 320i at the book price you wont even get a radio. Buy a Mondeo for the same price and you'll get touch screen sat nav. Some people even still think the BWM's is a better car and you are buying more than a badge.
Now I have started it
ari
Well-known member
I haven't done it so I will take your word for it.
However most people I know who've bought one of the larger Sealines has been trading up from a smaller Sealine and found buying a bigger one the only way to get the sort of part exchange value they need. So yes it is cheaper for them to buy a Sealine, but the "headline" prices are the same, it's the cost to change that is dearer for a Fairline or Princess, because they can't get what they need for their boat, other than by rolling it into a yet bigger Sealine.
I don’t blame Fairline for engineering their headline price to be the same as the Sealine. BMW do it. If you buy a 320i at the book price you wont even get a radio. Buy a Mondeo for the same price and you'll get touch screen sat nav. Some people even still think the BWM's is a better car and you are buying more than a badge.
Now I have started it
A BMW has a radio as standard, Ford charge extra for a touch screen sat nav on a Mondeo.
And the BMW will probably be worth usefully more come resale...
MikeJ42
New member
I agree about getting locked into a brand via a broker. I am effectively in that situation myself.
....but the pricing I did was from the ground up. The Fairline price is 'engineered' to look similar. There is nothing wrong with that, apart from getting a your hopes dashed as you go through the detail with the salesman!
....but the pricing I did was from the ground up. The Fairline price is 'engineered' to look similar. There is nothing wrong with that, apart from getting a your hopes dashed as you go through the detail with the salesman!
ian38_39
New member
Thanks for replying Ari, I put an in depth response to the OP's question based on 3 years experience of running the boat he was asking about. It seems everyone but you decided it was better to stick to the idea that petrols cost a fortune to run and an't possibly be any good, no wonder no one gets an informed response when they ask about petrol.
I did not calculate the exact GPH but yes it would be in the 15 - 16 GPH bracket, As I said this was real time information accurately collected across 350 miles of mostly fast cruising in a mix of seas and tidal conditions. There were no big seas involved which I believe hurt a petrol boat more than diesel but at least there is fact behind them not total rubbish passed on in the pub. The calculations started and ended with full tanks and fuel fills were accurately recorded and receipted.
I payed £1.24 at both Bradwell Marina and Gillingham Marina in August of this year. Diesel prices in the same marinas were 1.06 and 1.04 so basically 20p per litre cheaper.
I think and this is from what I have been told, not personal or calibrated figures, that AD41's in the same boat will return between 1.75 and 2.25 miles per gallon at cruise so yes it would be cheaper but over the 350 mile 15 day trip that would add up to a saving of about £400 in fuel.
The trip cost in total including Berthing, eating and drinking was in the region of £3500.
Taken in context of our main 2 week Holiday costing £400 more than if we had done it in a diesel boat of the same type and given that for the rest of the time during the year we would be lucky to cover half that mileage at sea again and the rest of our time is spent inland that would equate to about £600 per year more expensive.
It gets even more interesting when you take into account that if you run the sort of boat every one seems to suggest with shafts, you may get a more stable ride but you will use up the saving in the extra fuel you will burn. so financially no different but a better ride and a much greater outlay in the first instance.
ari
Well-known member
I think you hit the nail on the head there with the fuel cost vs total running cost. I had exactly the same argument with Gludy when red diesel concession was changing and Gludy was trying to claim that this would decimate boat values. Fact is that fuel is a tiny proportion of total running cost, if people were going to be so affected then they wouldn't be boating in the first place. Needless to say, boat prices didn't halve overnight...
However, the problem with fuel costs is they're the ones you actually see. You write out a cheque for £3,000 for berthing at the beginning of the year and it's done, gone, no longer seen. You put £500 in your tank and burn half of it over the weekend and suddenly you feel the urge to slow down or not go as far with the other half.
I've had petrol and diesel boats, indeed my last was a petrol boat (a 21ft cuddy cabin sportboat) and there's definitely a place (and a price point) for them.
But I can totally understand why large cheap twin petrol boats are shied away from. It's the old "if you can afford to run it you can afford a diesel boat, if you can't afford a diesel boat you probably can't afford to run it" scenario.
But used sensibly and costed properly, as you have done, and most of all priced right, there's certainly an argument for them, and much more so now fuel prices are so much closer (if I remember correctly diesel was less than half the cost of petrol when we had our Targa, now that was a saving worth having!!)
However, the problem with fuel costs is they're the ones you actually see. You write out a cheque for £3,000 for berthing at the beginning of the year and it's done, gone, no longer seen. You put £500 in your tank and burn half of it over the weekend and suddenly you feel the urge to slow down or not go as far with the other half.
I've had petrol and diesel boats, indeed my last was a petrol boat (a 21ft cuddy cabin sportboat) and there's definitely a place (and a price point) for them.
But I can totally understand why large cheap twin petrol boats are shied away from. It's the old "if you can afford to run it you can afford a diesel boat, if you can't afford a diesel boat you probably can't afford to run it" scenario.
But used sensibly and costed properly, as you have done, and most of all priced right, there's certainly an argument for them, and much more so now fuel prices are so much closer (if I remember correctly diesel was less than half the cost of petrol when we had our Targa, now that was a saving worth having!!)
