My main sail has recently become baggy between the tack of the Main sail and to approximately 1m up the luff. Then it is taught as it should be

[ritchyp]

Hi Members,

My recently purchased Feeling 1090 has a problem with the mainsail. When it is fully hoisted and the majority of the luff is tight, There is a bulge and a considerable gap between the mast and the luff. As mentioned above, the luff is taught most the of the way up the mast but considerably loose from from the tack and up to the first 2 or 3 feet. Obviously the lower part of the sail is not giving any performance at all. This isn't along the entire length of the foot of the sail as it is ok at the leech It is a fully Battened sail, new in 2021 from Hyde Sails and the previous owner told me it was a higher grade sail than first ordered and paid for because of some delays in it being ready for collection so they gave him a higher or better grade sail for the same price as a gesture of good will for the delay. (I am only repeating what the previous owner told me.)

The sail barely has 500 Nmiles on it so it couldn't or shouldn't be stretched.... There is a new stack pack sail bag with lazy jacks and the eyelet on the tack has a D shackle through it which is shackled to the eye on the same bracket as the reefing hooks or rams horns.

There is a Cunningham eye 6 inches above the bottom eyelet on the tack and as I was looking at it whilst sailing last weekend, I thought abought rigging up a Cunningham pull down to take the slack out of the luff. The chap I was sailing with suggested using my binoculars to look up to the top of the mast and head of the sail to see if there was something in the slug track stopping the sail from being fully hoisted. The main halyard was tight but it looked from below (Its a 14m high mast) that the head of the sail was well over 1 foot (maybe even 400mm) short of the top of the mast.
Difficult to judge being that far up and at sea so trying to look at it with binoculars would have been futile and dangerous trying to look up at that angle with the boat pitching. I had planned to have a look to see if there was something blocking the track once we were back at the marina but after the clean up and wash down and putting all the covers on, I totally forgot about until I got home an hour's drive away.

No sailing this weekend but I will be going down to the boat as you all know very well, there is always something that needs fixing or improving on a used boat and I would very much like to figure this out, this weekend. I thought about a smaller D shackle but that would only shorten the luff by maybe 2cms and it feels like it is 4 to 6 inches.
I will be going up the mast in a couple of weeks, to fit a new Wind Transducer so if its a problem at the mast head, I should have time to fix it. I'm too big and heavy to go up in a bosuns chair so i'll be going up by crane in a basket so on a double high tide in Southampton, I should have nearly 3 hours.

Any thoughts or ideas gratefully received

ritchyp

 

[Refueler]

Sounds like short hoist .... not getting sail fully up.

Does the boom have a traveller to set its height ? Some boats you can push the boom down to further tighten luff.

On a calm day while alongside - I would check the luff along entire height of sail - check head to be sure no damage ....

What about how the halyard is fast to the sail head ? Is the halyard knot stopping at the mast head ?

Once all up - then look carefully at relation of leech to luff ... is boom at wrong angle creating good leech but slack luff ?

Is it a solid kicker that is set wrong ?

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Do you have a Cunningham ?

 

[andsarkit]

On a calm day with no wind you could hoist it outside the track and see where the tack ends up. This will check the size of the sail and eliminate any problems with the track.
Maybe too obvious but are the reefing lines and topping lift loose and not tensioned?

 

[flaming]

My first thought is that it's friction between the cars or slugs and the track, so that the tension is not even down the luff but reduces as each car adds more friction. Used to see this on a similar sail. If it gets very bad it can add a lot of tension so what feels like "full hoist" is just friction.

If so, a good spray with some lubricant on the cars / slugs should go a long way to improve matters.

Another possible cause might be that the sail has been hoisted with the kicker and/or mainsheet tight, which can transfer the luff tension further back in the sail, especially in the last couple of feet at the bottom.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have had several Hyde sails & my current laminate is a Hyde. I would be surprised if it was a problem with the cut of the sail itself. However, I have had problems hoisting both my Hyde mains on my cruiser- not on my Squib though. This may be an isolated incident to me but it is similar.
I suggest that you look at the slider at the head of the sail. Mine is a bow shaped aluminium one & they sent me this to replace the slightly straighter one. What was happening was that the slider was tipping inside the track. Being aluminium it digs into the luff groove & causes a little piece of metal to stick out. This then catches on further hoists & before you know it the darned thing will not hoist at all.
Mine happened at about 900mm from the head. I had to get emery paper & when the mast was down I abraded the "spurs" away . Also the new sliders Hyde supplied were less prone to snag. In addition I make sure that the halyard is attached into the closes hole in the headboard to the mast to avoid tipping it towards the mast as tension comes on with the sail as it is loaded when hoisting. In the interim one can only ease the halyard a couple of feet & try again.

Another solution that I did think of trying ( but did not get round to it) was to remove the slider altogether, ( not so good when reefed) or replace it with one of the standard plastic ones. Trouble is that one has to re assemble the sail in the luff groove & I sail SH so struggle on my own. - no friends you know -- did not even get considered for the forum 5 person get together

 

[ritchyp]

Sounds like short hoist .... not getting sail fully up.

Does the boom have a traveller to set its height ? Some boats you can push the boom down to further tighten luff.

On a calm day while alongside - I would check the luff along entire height of sail - check head to be sure no damage ....

What about how the halyard is fast to the sail head ? Is the halyard knot stopping at the mast head ?

Once all up - then look carefully at relation of leech to luff ... is boom at wrong angle creating good leech but slack luff ?

Is it a solid kicker that is set wrong ?

Thanks for the reply Refueler. I can tell you that the aft end of the boom was as low as you would want it, I had folded the rather tall spray hood down as it restricts the boom height when underway (Under sail.)

The boom position is fixed as the pivot and swivel mounting bracket is riveted to the mast.

The main halyard has a steel eye spliced into it and a 50mm D shackle goes on to the sail head before we slip. The kicker is steel cable with metal pulleys and an eye with a 12mm rope coming back to the cockpit coming through a Jammer.

I never noticed anything wrong until the last bank holiday2 weeks ago. On the bank holiday Monday, it was gusting to over 25 kts (My Wind speed anemometer has seized, hence fitting a new one) 2.5m swell & waves so we had 2 reefs in. Even though I'm convinced that the main is not all the up when the halyard goes tight, with 2 reefs in, the sail head would have been much lower which rules out the the halyard connection causing the issue.
However, there was still a gap in the lower part of the luff but nowhere near as bad as it was this weekend just gone when I didnt reef at all.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My thought, is the no. 1 reef line free to run? That would stop the bottom part of the sail fully hoisting. But friction is more likely, or even simply underestimating how much grunt on the winch it takes. Ours requires the last half metre to be ground up hard, using 2nd speed of a size 40 winch, on roughly the same luff length I should think. Sometimes we go back for a second grind if it looks a bit floppy low down. Ours isn’t friction, the sail needs to be slowed down when dropping it.

 

[ritchyp]

I have had several Hyde sails & my current laminate is a Hyde. I would be surprised if it was a problem with the cut of the sail itself. However, I have had problems hoisting both my Hyde mains on my cruiser- not on my Squib though. This may be an isolated incident to me but it is similar.
I suggest that you look at the slider at the head of the sail. Mine is a bow shaped aluminium one & they sent me this to replace the slightly straighter one. What was happening was that the slider was tipping inside the track. Being aluminium it digs into the luff groove & causes a little piece of metal to stick out. This then catches on further hoists & before you know it the darned thing will not hoist at all.
Mine happened at about 900mm from the head. I had to get emery paper & when the mast was down I abraded the "spurs" away . Also the new sliders Hyde supplied were less prone to snag. In addition I make sure that the halyard is attached into the closes hole in the headboard to the mast to avoid tipping it towards the mast as tension comes on with the sail as it is loaded when hoisting. In the interim one can only ease the halyard a couple of feet & try again.

Another solution that I did think of trying ( but did not get round to it) was to remove the slider altogether, ( not so good when reefed) or replace it with one of the standard plastic ones. Trouble is that one has to re assemble the sail in the luff groove & I sail SH so struggle on my own. - no friends you know -- did not even get considered for the forum 5 person get together

"I have had several Hyde sails & my current laminate is a Hyde. I would be surprised if it was a problem with the cut of the sail itself. However, I have had problems hoisting both my Hyde mains on my cruiser- not on my Squib though. This may be an isolated incident to me but it is similar.
I suggest that you look at the slider at the head of the sail. Mine is a bow shaped aluminium one & they sent me this to replace the slightly straighter one. What was happening was that the slider was tipping inside the track. Being aluminium it digs into the luff groove & causes a little piece of metal to stick out. This then catches on further hoists & before you know it the darned thing will not hoist at all.
Mine happened at about 900mm from the head. I had to get emery paper & when the mast was down I abraded the "spurs" away . Also the new sliders Hyde supplied were less prone to snag. In addition I make sure that the halyard is attached into the closes hole in the headboard to the mast to avoid tipping it towards the mast as tension comes on with the sail as it is loaded when hoisting. In the interim one can only ease the halyard a couple of feet & try again.

Another solution that I did think of trying ( but did not get round to it) was to remove the slider altogether, ( not so good when reefed) or replace it with one of the standard plastic ones. Trouble is that one has to re assemble the sail in the luff groove & I sail SH so struggle on my own. - no friends you know -- did not even get considered for the forum 5 person get together"

Thank for the reply daydream believer. I think your on to something, I feel sure it is something to do with the hoist track and the slugs make sense. I found a container of sail track lubricant in one of the cockpit lockers so while the sail was down and I had a helper, I got him to pull the sail up a meter or so, so that I could spray the track as far up as I could reach and try and get the stuff all over the slugs. I thought it was very watery and not very slippery when it got on my hands. Is there a better lubricant out there. I have WD40 Advanced silicone and WD40 white lithium grease but not sure if it is the right product to use....?

I have to say that it is always a big chore to raise the main sail. Only one person has ever manged to pull it up to within 6 feet of the mast head by hand by sweating it at base of the mast, the rest of the way is by winch but I always thought it looked too low when the halyard would no longer move. Its the same dropping it, when you let the halyard go free, the sail falls maybe a meter and then it has to be pulled down by and doesn't get flaked properly.

I have very few friends that are interested in Sailing so I have to advertise on websites "Come and sail with me if you are a sailor with no boat of your own. I'm always looking for people to sail with!

 

[flaming]

Check the slugs for damage. We had a similar problem once, and it turned out to be a slug that was cracked. It looked ok with no load, but separated and jammed solid when the load came on.

 

[Bobc]

Sounds to me that you're not putting enough tension on the halyard when you hoist it, and the kicker/mainsheet load is pulling it back down again. Try winching harder.

 

[Minerva]

Thanks for the reply Refueler. I can tell you that the aft end of the boom was as low as you would want it, I had folded the rather tall spray hood down as it restricts the boom height when underway (Under sail.)

The boom position is fixed as the pivot and swivel mounting bracket is riveted to the mast.

The main halyard has a steel eye spliced into it and a 50mm D shackle goes on to the sail head before we slip. The kicker is steel cable with metal pulleys and an eye with a 12mm rope coming back to the cockpit coming through a Jammer.

I never noticed anything wrong until the last bank holiday2 weeks ago. On the bank holiday Monday, it was gusting to over 25 kts (My Wind speed anemometer has seized, hence fitting a new one) 2.5m swell & waves so we had 2 reefs in. Even though I'm convinced that the main is not all the up when the halyard goes tight, with 2 reefs in, the sail head would have been much lower which rules out the the halyard connection causing the issue.
However, there was still a gap in the lower part of the luff but nowhere near as bad as it was this weekend just gone when I didnt reef at all.

This is the key bit of information - if the boom is fouling the sprayhood, it's not getting full hoist.

Check the batten cars and sliders & lube.
Check the halyard isn't jamming in the top sheave - does the end that attaches to the head have a splice making a hard spot.?
Make sure kicker and mainsheet fully off on the next hoist.

 

[ritchyp]

Sounds to me that you're not putting enough tension on the halyard when you hoist it, and the kicker/mainsheet load is pulling it back down again. Try winching harder.

Appreciate the comment Bob but winching any harder will make something go bang! I my genoa furling drum wouldnt pull the last bit of sail in so i gave it some Ritchy Power and did 100 quids worth of damage. On the main it could be a whole lot more. As I said thanks for the advice though

 

[laika]

I had folded the rather tall spray hood down as it restricts the boom height when underway (Under sail.)

Could it be that the previous owner had the sail cut to allow the boom to be higher at the back in order to clear the spray hood? In which case might you be cranking the main sheet down more than the sail was cut for? The symptoms of that would be exactly what you're seeing: halyard taught, no apparent jamming of sliders, baggy at the bottom of the luff. Try not tightening the main sheet so much.

This is pretty much what I did except that in my case the higher cut was suggested to me by the sailmaker to clear my head (I'm relatively tall) and I naively said "yes why not" ("Because you'll never be able to get the boom over the centreline even with the traveller pulled all the way to windward, that's why not...")

 

[RupertW]

When you hoist it have you made sure that the boom is as high as possible using topping lift or boom strut and the vang is fully slack - and also that the outhaul is slack too. If you get all of those nice and loose and still can’t get the sail fully hoisted then there must be something wrong with mast track or slugs.

 

[Laser310]

Thank for the reply daydream believer. I think your on to something, I feel sure it is something to do with the hoist track and the slugs make sense. I found a container of sail track lubricant in one of the cockpit lockers so while the sail was down and I had a helper, I got him to pull the sail up a meter or so, so that I could spray the track as far up as I could reach and try and get the stuff all over the slugs. I thought it was very watery and not very slippery when it got on my hands. Is there a better lubricant out there. I have WD40 Advanced silicone and WD40 white lithium grease but not sure if it is the right product to use....?

i use mclube on my track - works great

it is a dry lubricant, so it won;t make a mess

McLube Sailkote Dry Lubricant ML0

also - pictures would help...

 

[William_H]

Just one other thought. The luff of the sail should be a straight line halyard to tack attachment with no great pressure when hoisting on the slugs or sliders of the luff. So atachment of the halyard to sail head should be close to luff and tack attachment should hold the luff in close to the track. Likewise for the tack of the reef. ol'will

 

[Refueler]

I think I would be taking a long tape measure - I have a 50m builders tape ! - tie a slug / slider (depends on what name you use !) to the end and hoist to see real luff groove height on mast. Then measure the sail luff ...

When tying slug to tape end ... I would fix a 'stopper' on the halyard that equals same measurement of slug to top of headboard .... so that slug only hoists to same position as on the sail.

If all is good ... then it has to be something fouling the hoist.

 

[stuartwineberg]

When you hoist it have you made sure that the boom is as high as possible using topping lift or boom strut and the vang is fully slack - and also that the outhaul is slack too. If you get all of those nice and loose and still can’t get the sail fully hoisted then there must be something wrong with mast track or slugs.

+1. We had this problem for ages till I realised the leech was going tight before the luff was fully hoisted. You say the leech is “ok” which supports this idea. Scandalise the boom, let the mainsheet run free, vang off exactly as here then get the sail up. If you don’t have a dynema halyard it may go a bit slack after the sail is up as it stretches slightly. Other obvious stuff is check that your reefing lines aren’t getting jammed and with a fully battened sail get absolutely head to wind or the battens can jam the cars.

 

[Daydream believer]

Surely no one hoists a sail with the mainsheet sheeted in & the vang down hard.
There should be no tension on the leech whatsoever. In fact a small ( just enough) amount of topping lift to take the weight of the boom is my preferred option
I also sail head to wind to allow the sail to flog lightly to "rattle" the sliders in the groove to help them free off as the sail goes up. This is particularly useful with fully battened setups. I know that some have specialist luff systems, but not applicable to OP & this thread anyway.
I cannot agree with refueler about stoppers on the halyard because he has not allowed for stretch in the luff & the fact that the halyard often needs adjusting under way.
The simplest solution- It is not rocket science- is to hoist the sail. Stand back- if on a pontoon, or get in the dinghy & look at it through some binoculars to se the head of the sail.
I had a problem at the head of my mast in Dover once. I just waited for LW, stood on the dock wall & looked. Easy to see the issue from only a few feet away.