Hanse320/325 vs older boat

[dom]

Here's some more:

3. Modern vessels of the sporty variety have a lot more control lines coming back to the cockpit, opening the risk that a crewmember rolls an angle when standing on the rope.

4. Modern race derived vessels can have wider cockpits, which when beating to windward can open a large, and potentially dangerous fall risk when pressed.

5. Modern race derived boats are much faster than their older cousins, especially offwind, making bow work difficult unless the vessel is dialled back. There is a genuine risk of fast green water at these speeds which will easily knock you down.

6. Moving further into the race derived models, it is fair to say that some of these boats can be a bit twitchy and directionally volatile for those not used to saving them.

7. Reversing old boats is tricky, reversing twin rudder affairs an act of faith at slow speeds!

 

[RJJ]

Fail to see how any of that is relevant. This discussion is about boats around 30-33' (nothing to do with the examples you quote) which is the crossover between tiller steered and wheel steered. There are very sound reasons why some boats in this size range have a tiller and why some have a wheel. Just observing that when a choice was offered in the sort of boat the OP is considering the paying customers chose a wheel - and now increasingly twin wheels. For somebody who constantly writes about design issues on boats, I thought you might be able to work out why that was for yourself.

The major disadvantage of any tiller is leverage. If the rudder is designed to be wheel-steered, then it's likely to be rather hard work with a tiller. If the rudder is designed accordingly, for size and distribution of area around the axis, then a tiller can be great.

I prefer a tiller, but have sailed some boats around 35-40 foot that are absolute pigs. Not that there was anything wrong with the design, but the tiller option just didn't work - back-breaking stuff.

Regarding emergency steering, it's typically not designed for steering. That stubby tiller is designed to be tied off to immobilise the quadrant, perhaps hove-to, while you fix the steering cables or rig a drag device of some kind.

One of the more valid concerns about wheel steering is the quality of what sits underneath. I don't like dual wheels with a single steering cable - it's more prone to stretch/slip, and then if it fails it's complicated to fix. If the dual wheels are independently rigged, there's less stretch and also that's your emergency steering right there. For a tiny amount more money and weight. Who knows the difference, from on deck?

All that said, my suspicion about the popularity of a wheel at 32 feet when I would instinctively tend to prefer a tiller - is that it's about the illusion of accessibility to novices. I say illusion, because it's nodding in the direction of "steer it like a car" and novice sailors can take that too literally. Seems a mistake to me, but ultimately these decisions are made by charter clientele and those who actually buy new boats, not pbo debates.

 

[Daydream believer]

Your directionally unstable boat was designed to race where fast tacking and agility are prime assets. In a cruising boat, that and flat water speed , are not necessarily such a great thing. One person thinks a quick helm is a joy, another will be infuriated by it.
Like many other aspects of design, few are black and white issues.

The basic hanse is not designed as a race boat but a pretty fast cruising boat. If you want to race they have the Dehler line for that. . Most of the Hanse boats built in the 2003-2007 are pretty quick. I like the designs & I think that they are a little better built as it was a different age in the developement of the Hanse brand.. The 37 was an excellent boat & have done numerous atlantic crossings. I believe that the Varianta still uses that hull mould but I am not certain as I have not kept up to date. I must admit that when I was in the market for a new Hanse I was so dissappointed with the interior build of the Hanse ( the Bavaria on the next stand was considerably better inside) that I decided not to upgrade. I have only been on a 45 since & My son has crewed one a few times. It is great in a marina where we all congregate for drinks when cruising in company. However, my son laughed when the owner returned from a walk in a rain squall & had nowhere to throw his soaking shirt other than the saloon table. My son also said that going below in a breeze was a nightmare with nowhere to hold on between furniture.
Of course the OP wants a smaller boat but the principles still apply & one assumes that he will look for things like this

But I do love my 311 . I have had 2 Stellas & I have to admit that there is something about helming a Stella that the Hanse just does not have. Obviously the Hanse is a better boatat 31 ft, but I once hove too for 4.5 hours off the North Falls in a F9 in my first Stella & actually slept for 3.5 hours.The cockpit was not self draining either!!. Underway I had to pump every 15 minutes. I could leave the helm upwind for a while by trimming the sails- I had no autopilot back in the 70s.
So a long keel has its merits & the Stella was a pretty quick boat in its day. But would I swop my Hanse for a long keel now? No way.

 

[tyce]

Here's some more:

3. Modern vessels of the sporty variety have a lot more control lines coming back to the cockpit, opening the risk that a crewmember rolls an angle when standing on the rope.

4. Modern race derived vessels can have wider cockpits, which when beating to windward can open a large, and potentially dangerous fall risk when pressed.

5. Modern race derived boats are much faster than their older cousins, especially offwind, making bow work difficult unless the vessel is dialled back. There is a genuine risk of fast green water at these speeds which will easily knock you down.

6. Moving further into the race derived models, it is fair to say that some of these boats can be a bit twitchy and directionally volatile for those not used to saving them.

7. Reversing old boats is tricky, reversing twin rudder affairs an act of faith at slow speeds!

Reversing with twin rudders makes not a jot of difference, after all why would it. What is tricky is starting forwards as there's no prop wash.

 

[geem]

Yawn

There’s surely a line where passion / loyalty for a brand get crossed and starts to look a lot more like having “issues”

Without the need to state my experience I can’t think of a single boatbuilder that I haven’t heard of having had problems at one time or another; Westerly keels in the early days, Moody’s with hull stiffening, ask a blaster their experience with HR laminate, even the mighty starlights had to be rebuilt with major hull surgery, Hunter boats with their one off resin issue, Beneteau briefly had an osmosis issue, Oyster and Bavaria keels ........I could go on!

Let’s try to avoid disparaging brands to try to justify ourselves. These are other people’s pride and joy. When bothered to sift through all the BS and nonsense on these kind of threads the one thing that strikes me is I’ve rarely heard anyone declare their brand of boat a lemon. Who can say that about cars? Strikes me that whether it’s old, new, ultra expensive quality brand or cheap and cheerful mass production everybody seems happy with their choice

I think this guy might describe his boat as a lemon . I have heard of several Lagoon cats with bulkhead problems but this series of videos shows the gory details. Just remember these are modern boats built to RCD standards (for what they are worth). Lagoon catamarans are built by Beneteau

 

[rotrax]

After 7 pages of this it just makes me happier with my choice of vessel.

Lets face it, if I wanted to travel fast by water the last thing I would have bought would have been a sailing boat!

Primary safety, inherant strength, seaworthyness, a kindly motion and comfort alongside or on the hook are for First Mate and I, far more important issues

 

[kof]

3. Rolling an ankle on a deck line? Serious? You know non-racing boats have deck lines also.

4. Racing boats maybe. Most modern cruising boats have less open cockpits and usually have a table in the middle to brace against.

5. Why go to the bow when you don't have to leave the cockpit as all the lines are led aft? I would have thought deck lines running aft means you don't have to go onto the foredeck to do any of that sail handing hence your point about "making bow work difficult " is also mute.

6. And old boats are so slow to respond you can't get out of the way. And when a boat starts to be over pressed or has too much speed (twitchy) you depower to have more control, just like on an old heavy boat.

7. Reversing a twin rudder boat just takes practice ,just like a long keeled boat reversing takes practice. Zero difference once you get used to it.

Here's some more:

3. Modern vessels of the sporty variety have a lot more control lines coming back to the cockpit, opening the risk that a crewmember rolls an angle when standing on the rope.

4. Modern race derived vessels can have wider cockpits, which when beating to windward can open a large, and potentially dangerous fall risk when pressed.

5. Modern race derived boats are much faster than their older cousins, especially offwind, making bow work difficult unless the vessel is dialled back. There is a genuine risk of fast green water at these speeds which will easily knock you down.

6. Moving further into the race derived models, it is fair to say that some of these boats can be a bit twitchy and directionally volatile for those not used to saving them.

7. Reversing old boats is tricky, reversing twin rudder affairs an act of faith at slow speeds!

 

[Daydream believer]

I want to know what has happened to Brent Swain these days. He would give some practical, reasoned arguement as to why none of us have a clue about yacht design & what the Op should be sailing. Nothing like an "unbiased, balanced" view
Perhaps he is off on one of his trips up the coast of Nova Scotia, or in a field somewhere knocking up steel cruising yachts for the more discerning types

 

[pvb]

I want to know what has happened to Brent Swain these days.

No longer a member, I believe. His name is greyed out. Last online Oct 2019.

 

[dom]

3. Rolling an ankle on a deck line? Serious? You know non-racing boats have deck lines also.

4. Racing boats maybe. Most modern cruising boats have less open cockpits and usually have a table in the middle to brace against.

5. Why go to the bow when you don't have to leave the cockpit as all the lines are led aft? I would have thought deck lines running aft means you don't have to go onto the foredeck to do any of that sail handing hence your point about "making bow work difficult " is also mute.

6. And old boats are so slow to respond you can't get out of the way. And when a boat starts to be over pressed or has too much speed (twitchy) you depower to have more control, just like on an old heavy boat.

7. Reversing a twin rudder boat just takes practice ,just like a long keeled boat reversing takes practice. Zero difference once you get used to it.

Lol, as the owner of both a fast cruiser and twin-rudder racing boat, I am reasonably au fait with their advantages ?

I was responding to bibaltic and others who make the perfectly reasonable point that people are slow to fess-up about the downsides of their chosen vessels.

Incidentally, disagree with all of your points except point #4, if a cockpit table is permanently fitted.

 

[Tranona]

All that said, my suspicion about the popularity of a wheel at 32 feet when I would instinctively tend to prefer a tiller - is that it's about the illusion of accessibility to novices. I say illusion, because it's nodding in the direction of "steer it like a car" and novice sailors can take that too literally. Seems a mistake to me, but ultimately these decisions are made by charter clientele and those who actually buy new boats, not pbo debates.

Lot of truth in that. Many owners/charterers/buyers are not buying for the same reasons that buyers bought similar size boats in the past where "sailing" was the core activity. Boats are now mainly a platform for enjoying life afloat with the capability to get safely and comfortably from one nice location to another, whether it be hopping along the N European coast or from bay to bay in the Med. Not much time is spent physically steering the boat, just plug in a waypoint and press go for the autopilot. Priority in the cockpit is space free of lines and gear, a table and access off the transom for swimming. That is why today's boats are shaped and laid out as they are. There is, however still a market for boats where "sailing" is a priority and tillers preferred - Sunfasts, Firsts, Dehlers, Elans etc in the smaller sizes, although they seem to be a dying breed.

 

[rotrax]

As usual, Tranona hit the nail on the head with the previous post.

As a sport, sailing requires a certain type of boat.

As a family pastime/hobby the requirements are often - but not always - different.

That might well depend on ones Partner/Wife

 

[Daydream believer]

No longer a member, I be lieve. His name is greyed out. Last online Oct 2019.

Pity I miss his rubbish rants. Some forumites really did seem to bite. Made for some amusing posts. He did actually score a coup[le of valid points, but a job to pick them out of the dross though.

 

[Daydream believer]

That might well depend on ones Partner/Wife

& that is the big problem. A couple where the 2 partners have the same attitude to sailing must be a rare thing. Those manufacturing boats have to split the design in such as a way as to satisfy 2 totally different requirements. I am fortunate that my wife plays golf & is more than happy for me to disappear on my own for 12 weeks or more at a time. 50 years of happy marriage & we have never lived in each others pockets. If she wants to go abroad on a golfing holiday for a week the first I know of it is after it has been booked.
But some couples just cannot live apart. they cannot even visit the supermarket on their own. So a wife who wants warm weather and flat seas & idle comfort will never fit with a balls out racer looking forward to a thrash down the south coast.
The modern AWB boat is a blatant compromise nothing less. Well built all the same but designed for a different breed to the 70s
Even the pampered kids are different. When i was a kid I was told where I was going. Now my grandson gets consulted about " would he like to go to....." if not plans get altered to compromise. I sometimes cringe at the situation.

 

[Gary Fox]

....if you really think your boat still fits your sailing a decade after purchase, whatever the boat, you have arrived at a point where your sailing is not continuing to develop.
....it is sad if that happens because that is quite the opposite of the essence of sailing and yachtsmanship...

I was casually flicking through this thread, not really being a Hanse person myself, but this post deserves a prize for its combination of professional, Dunning-Kruger levels of profound ignorance, with overweening, almost breathtaking blind arrogance. Astonishing. I apologise if author is mentally handicapped; narcissistic personality disorder springs to mind, so will make no further comment.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I want to know what has happened to Brent Swain these days. He would give some practical, reasoned arguement as to why none of us have a clue about yacht design & what the Op should be sailing. Nothing like an "unbiased, balanced" view
Perhaps he is off on one of his trips up the coast of Nova Scotia, or in a field somewhere knocking up steel cruising yachts for the more discerning types

Ahem, wrong side of the country, Nova Scotia, but yes.

 

[pvb]

I was casually flicking through this thread, not really being a Hanse person myself, but this post deserves a prize for its combination of professional, Dunning-Kruger levels of profound ignorance, with overweening, almost breathtaking blind arrogance. Astonishing. I apologise if author is mentally handicapped; narcissistic personality disorder springs to mind, so will make no further comment.

Accusing posters of suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect is a serious personal insult, much favoured by Rogershaw and Coopec whenever they were unable to understand others' posts. Fortunately, both of them have decided to leave these forums and spout their bile elsewhere.

 

[FortBeau]

I think it's lovely that everybody here already owns the perfect boat, I'm happy for you all. Whether it's compact and nippy, or grand and luxurious. Tried and tested or modern and cutting edge. Built to be exclusive, or attainable. There is a perfect boat for everyone.

Ideally we would have one boat for each category: a compact for the ease and the cost, the nippy for the winning feeling, and a bit of grandeur with luxury too. All boats are a bit grand and a luxury at any size and price ;>.

 

[FortBeau]

After 7 pages of this it just makes me happier with my choice of vessel.

Lets face it, if I wanted to travel fast by water the last thing I would have bought would have been a sailing boat!

Primary safety, inherant strength, seaworthyness, a kindly motion and comfort alongside or on the hook are for First Mate and I, far more important issues

Pray tell, which vessel is that?

 

[ashtead]

As said above having sailed a Westerly in my youth with a tiller that can knock you down in the cockpit and goes backwards but not in the direction you would want why would anyone not be tempted by a wheel in say a small Bav or Hanse or Hunter. Instruments where you want them, not lurking below, throttle on the helm station ,not down by your ankles five foot away, space to reverse facing backwards,stern walkthrough, proper stern cabin not a coffin, autopilot you just turn on not clip to helm, waypoint navigation is simple, ability to fix a table to the front and dine as you sail along, -all these things appeal to newbie entrants to sailing of the past 20 years . Im sure many like the lines of older vessels but new boats are built for mass market to be as simple to park on flat as possible. If you look back to early charter boats like the Mirage28 etc even these were replaced fairly quickly with larger wheel helms with more space and comforts.