Hanse320/325 vs older boat

[Tranona]

They do, however the set-ups are frequently awkward (this is the polite version) and most often have to overcome the friction and resistance of the primary steering mechanism. They are after all, in this instance, considered an emergency back-up.

I have to agree with Johnalison here, under 40' I would consider a tiller to be the preferred steering system. It doesn't prevent you having a below deck autopilot either, doesn't require a rudder indicator, doesn't leave you in any doubt when you need to fix your sail balance for optimum performance, is superbly responsive and you can hold it between your knees as you sort out the main sheet or hang on to your cuppa. In port you hinge it up and it's out of the way whereas some owners of wheel steered boats remove the offending device so they can move about freely or have one of those (wobbly) folding models.

Despite all that, even though many of the smaller 30-33' AWBs like the Hanse discussed here were offered with the option of tiller or wheel (at extra cost) and almost universally buyers ordered them with wheels. So clearly those that buy the boats have different views from those that don't!

As to emergency tillers, they are indeed difficult to operate, but that is little to do with friction or resistance and more to do with limitations of space to use a long enough tiller to deal with the loads of large high aspect ratio rudder. As for responsiveness you have clearly not experienced modern boats with high geared steering. As for holding between you legs, why not just press the autopilot. suggest you read the reviews of boats with wheel steering (just about all of them these days) and they invariably comment positively on the feel and responsiveness of the steering. Things have moved a long way since wheels started to appear a boat sizes increased and a lot of the old fashioned prejudices no longer hold.

 

[Laminar Flow]

If wheel steering has failed, there's unlikely to be any resistance to overcome. Emergency tillers are usually a simple drop-in arrangement, fitting on the rudder stock. In my current boat, an access hatch has to be removed first, requiring only a winch handle to unscrew it.

Perhaps, but that wasn't the intended slant of the poster.

I have "tested" a number of these arrangements and for some ocean races you have to demonstrate how you intend to steer the beast if the steering mechanism fails or, indeed, the rudder drops off.

Quite a few emergency systems are seriously awkward with a short, stubby tillers facing sideways like a Viking longboat, or even in the odd case, backwards.

 

[pvb]

Quite a few emergency systems are seriously awkward with a short, stubby tillers facing sideways like a Viking longboat, or even in the odd case, backwards.

Maybe, but I'd bet that, in a real emergency, you'd be glad of it. Many boats now have a below-decks autopilot acting directly on the rudder, and this can be used to steer in an emergency.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Despite all that, even though many of the smaller 30-33' AWBs like the Hanse discussed here were offered with the option of tiller or wheel (at extra cost) and almost universally buyers ordered them with wheels. So clearly those that buy the boats have different views from those that don't!

As to emergency tillers, they are indeed difficult to operate, but that is little to do with friction or resistance and more to do with limitations of space to use a long enough tiller to deal with the loads of large high aspect ratio rudder. As for responsiveness you have clearly not experienced modern boats with high geared steering. As for holding between you legs, why not just press the autopilot. suggest you read the reviews of boats with wheel steering (just about all of them these days) and they invariably comment positively on the feel and responsiveness of the steering. Things have moved a long way since wheels started to appear a boat sizes increased and a lot of the old fashioned prejudices no longer hold.

They also offered 20' ers with wheel steering. It offered customers the big ship feel. We have/had a C&C 27 and a Cal 28 with wheel steering in the family. Under 30' I can only describe it as an affectation and much in the same league as a 18' centre cockpit with aft cabin.

 

[dom]

Maybe, but I'd bet that, in a real emergency, you'd be glad of it. Many boats now have a below-decks autopilot acting directly on the rudder, and this can be used to steer in an emergency.

+1 On my boat the emergency tiller is too short for comfort. I therefore add to it a 5' stainless steel pole which slots over the top and is fastened with a bolt.
The vessel is then perfectly easy to sail as the combination of a balanced hull, semi-balanced rudders and modern self-aligning roller bearings require minimal effort.

 

[dom]

They also offered 20' ers with wheel steering. It offered customers the big ship feel.....

Buyers buy what they want and some, believe it or not, are good sailors, sometimes very good!

Why the derogatory tones? Surely people should buy what they feel comfortable sailing?

 

[johnalison]

Wondering why the tiller means you can't be frightened by large waves coming from astern? Is it because downwind you steer with the tiller behind you, so you never see them coming ;>

You read it the wrong way round. That sentence was appended to the one about wheel steering, implying that you couldn't see behind when using a wheel but might well do with a tiller.

I don't have an overriding opinion about tillers vs wheels. In most instances I think that it is better to stick with the system the boat was designed for. To take two examples I am familiar with, the Mystere 26 came with a wheel and the cockpit is designed around it. I have seen examples converted to tiller, and they look awkward and don't make good use of the seating. My HR 34 is designed around a tiller and the reverse applies. I have sailed on one with a wheel and although it is fine in sailing terms, the cockpit is difficult to get round and earlier versions had an intrusion into the aft cabin.

 

[Concerto]

That 2007 Jeanneau has a displacement of 7330kg. A Westerly Oceanranger 38 from the 1980s displaces 7212kg, virtually the same.

Why just quote just the displacement without mentioning other basics like LOA, LWL, beam, hull depth (not draft), the transom width as a percentage of the beam, keel weight and draft. The Jeanneau will certainly have a longer waterline, wider beam and wider transom, so a much higher volume hull making this not a direct comparison.

 

[pvb]

Why just quote just the displacement without mentioning other basics like LOA, LWL, beam, hull depth (not draft), the transom width as a percentage of the beam, keel weight and draft. The Jeanneau will certainly have a longer waterline, wider beam and wider transom, so a much higher volume hull making this not a direct comparison.

They're both about 38ft LOA. Jeanneau has a bit longer LWL. The Jeanneau's beam is almost identical (2cm wider). Westerly keel is 2996kg, versus only 2280kg for the Jeanneau, so the bare hull weight of the Jeanneau is more than the Westerly's. I'm sure you understand the point I'm making.

 

[Concerto]

They're both about 38ft LOA. Jeanneau has a bit longer LWL. The Jeanneau's beam is almost identical (2cm wider). Westerly keel is 2996kg, versus only 2280kg for the Jeanneau, so the bare hull weight of the Jeanneau is more than the Westerly's. I'm sure you understand the point I'm making.

Where are the numbers to prove your comments.

 

[doug748]

Where are the numbers to prove your comments.

Well, yes. Getting a bit baffled myself.

I thought modern boats benefit from computers, the modern materials and robots. Now we are told they are no different to an owd Westerly.
I'm bereft.

.

 

[Tranona]

They also offered 20' ers with wheel steering. It offered customers the big ship feel. We have/had a C&C 27 and a Cal 28 with wheel steering in the family. Under 30' I can only describe it as an affectation and much in the same league as a 18' centre cockpit with aft cabin.

Fail to see how any of that is relevant. This discussion is about boats around 30-33' (nothing to do with the examples you quote) which is the crossover between tiller steered and wheel steered. There are very sound reasons why some boats in this size range have a tiller and why some have a wheel. Just observing that when a choice was offered in the sort of boat the OP is considering the paying customers chose a wheel - and now increasingly twin wheels. For somebody who constantly writes about design issues on boats, I thought you might be able to work out why that was for yourself.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Buyers buy what they want and some, believe it or not, are good sailors, sometimes very good!

Why the derogatory tones? Surely people should buy what they feel comfortable sailing?

A fine example of customer choice over practicality is the new HR 34. As standard the boat is designed with a tiller. The test boat (Segeln magazine) had his "n" her steering wheels which made movement around the cockpit very awkward. When the testers asked HR about it they just shrugged and said the customer wanted it that way. Customer choice obviously doesn't necessarily make a better boat.

I have also found that some people find tiller steering counterintuitive.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Fail to see how any of that is relevant. This discussion is about boats around 30-33' (nothing to do with the examples you quote) which is the crossover between tiller steered and wheel steered. There are very sound reasons why some boats in this size range have a tiller and why some have a wheel. Just observing that when a choice was offered in the sort of boat the OP is considering the paying customers chose a wheel - and now increasingly twin wheels. For somebody who constantly writes about design issues on boats, I thought you might be able to work out why that was for yourself.

For somebody who constantly writes about the glory, not to say absolute superiority and better build of contemporary designs, I thought you might be able to work out why that was for yourself.

Whatever that may be, it has not much to do with the practicalities of sailing, be that cruising or racing, real mechanical advantage, never mind aero- or hydrodynamics.

 

[doug748]

Perhaps that's because there aren't many significant disadvantages of newer boats!

Surely between ourselves we could come up with something?

I have a 2003 hanse 311
..........................................It is directionally unstable so one cannot let the helm go for a split second. One needs a good autopilot. I have burned out several & have an aeries. .......................

.

 

[Daydream believer]

Surely between ourselves we could come up with something?

You can add-- "will not heave too"-- to that as well but there is nothing else that I can object to & after 17 years of ownership my only regret is not buying the 34 instead

 

[dom]

Surely between ourselves we could come up with something?

1. Modern hulls do seem to jig around at anchor a lot more than their trad cousins.

2. Also, modern hulls are designed to cut through waves at an angle of heel. Which makes motoring to windward in a big sea a very slammy affair indeed!

 

[doug748]

You can add-- "will not heave too"-- to that as well but there is nothing else that I can object to & after 17 years of ownership my only regret is not buying the 34 instead

Good for you for pointing it out, we could do with more honesty. I can think of a number of things I don't like about most boats, which, for many people, is the nub of the matter.

When folk say "modern boats are infinitely better" like that, flat, no discussion, it's obviously just wrong. It will get pointed out. I think most people take a far more moderate line.

Your directionally unstable boat was designed to race where fast tacking and agility are prime assets. In a cruising boat, that and flat water speed , are not necessarily such a great thing. One person thinks a quick helm is a joy, another will be infuriated by it.
Like many other aspects of design, few are black and white issues.

.

 

[johnalison]

Good for you for pointing it out, we could do with more honesty. I can think of a number of things I don't like about most boats, which, for many people, is the nub of the matter.

When folk say "modern boats are infinitely better" like that, flat, no discussion, it's obviously just wrong. It will get pointed out. I think most people take a far more moderate line.

Your directionally unstable boat was designed to race where fast tacking and agility are prime assets. In a cruising boat boat, that and flat water speed , is not necessarily such a great thing. One person thinks a quick helm is a joy, another will be infuriated by it.
Like many other aspects of design few are black and white issues.

.

And many modern boats need a contraption for keeping the anchor clear of the bow, thus extending the boat’s marina length beyond its accommodation size. Many sailors are not live-aboards but use the boat for extended periods and may want an interior which is different from the light and open ones designed to appeal to charterers and weekend sailors. Personally, I think that lightness inside is overrated. My HR is in the middle of the range here but I have visited many boats that others would consider dark and what for them might appear gloomy often appeals to me as being cosy and warm-feeling.

 

[pvb]

Where are the numbers to prove your comments.

You 'll find the Jeanneau 39i numbers on the Jeanneau website; you probably know the Westerly numbers off by heart.