Complete electronics refit... or perhaps not

[matt1]

I spec’d up what you have a couple of years ago, minus the 2nd plotter, all in Raymarine and got to about 12k (w/o labour)

If you are going voyaging Raymarine parts are more available. I ended up with B&G because that was fitted to the stock boat I bought.

If you are on the south coast Hudson Marine are excellent and very honest about pros and cons (they sell Raymarine and B&G)

 

[Yngmar]

What I would do in your shoes:

Get rid of the broken antique Furuno radar. Your C120 chartplotter should be radar capable, so find out which domes it is compatible with and get a used one (usually plenty on eBay). Assuming you wanted Radar at all. Ours is used only a few times a season but there's always at least one passage where it justifies its existence. Might be fog, might be tracking thunderstorms or might be spotting illegal fishing vessels that run with no lights or AIS.

AIS and VHF already sound fine. Keep as is.

Sailing instruments: ST50 is fine. Either hunt down replacement screens, replacement units or fit some ST60/ST60+ series kit, which is compatible with your existing transducers.

Transducers: Repair or replace broken windvane (kits and bearings available). Replace depth sounder. Antifoul the log wheel area so it actually works sometimes (new one won't do any better unless you get the Ultrasonic one perhaps).

Autopilot: Sounds like it's mostly fine. Replace screen or head unit and calibrate fluxgate compass.

In my experience the old kit in good repair works a lot better than any of the new Raymarine/Simrad kit, which all seem to suffer from too many silly marketing gimmicks, rather lousy firmware programming and poor NMEA2000 implementations. Maretron may be the exception to that, but then your 25k budget will end up being nearer 30k.

For the cockpit, anything that can run OpenCPN or Navionics will do - regular threads around with advice on that.

All in all this should cost less than £2k and isn't difficult work.

 

[Birdseye]

Faced with the same issue as the OP and being a mean old man by nature, I tried to add a few necessary pieces of modern kit to a set up of old Raymarine. I might have saved a bit of money though less than I expected because I had to buy tech to translate NMEA 2000, Raytalk 1 and NG and 0183 etc. And the result still doesnt work that well with each manufacturer blaming the other. Its a bit like taking an old Ford and putting in it a VW engine and a Toyota gearbox - a bodge.

My advice is bite the bullet, scrap the lot and replace from one maker. Its not as if the boat is a cheap piece of French or German tat.

 

[matt1]

Don’t be surprised if you end up with a new set of frustrations when you upgrade. For instance, My old (2006) Raymarine ST60 wind instrument was crystal clear, with a nice analogue dial and pretty intuitive. A couple of button presses to get things like max wind or toggle between apparent and true for instance. By contrast Max wind and max boat speed (through the water) don’t even feature in my 2018 instruments and many features that do are burried in the software or require multiple menus. glitches include only showing half the track on a recent channel crossing, an inability to enter a log calibration factor manually meaning you have to do several runs to calibrate speed. I could do on....

With the plethora of features has come complexity, some basic features missed and a few software glitches.

Now where things have come on is in the pilot area where the 9 axis controllers are amazing

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Don’t be surprised if you end up with a new set of frustrations when you upgrade. For instance, My old (2006) Raymarine ST60 wind instrument was crystal clear, with a nice analogue dial and pretty intuitive. A couple of button presses to get things like max wind or toggle between apparent and true for instance. By contrast Max wind and max boat speed (through the water) don’t even feature in my 2018 instruments and many features that do are burried in the software or require multiple menus. glitches include only showing half the track on a recent channel crossing, an inability to enter a log calibration factor manually meaning you have to do several runs to calibrate speed. I could do on....

With the plethora of features has come complexity, some basic features missed and a few software glitches.

Now where things have come on is in the pilot area where the 9 axis controllers are amazing

It took me about a year before I finally settled on what info to put on which pages with my Triton 2 display. Just when I got to the stage where I instinctively knew the button presses I got bored and changed everything I imagine I will do the same again next year.

Max wind in the last hour I have and max boat speed for the trip. But it takes some finding.

 

[johnalison]

I only have trouble with one or two items on my current kit. One is when I inadvertently make some vessel my 'buddy' on AIS because the button is next to the one expanding the info. It always takes me an age to de-bud the offending vessel. Another is working out how to re-enable the touch screen after I have mistakenly disabled it, something I never normally need to do.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am going through the same situation as you, Rival 41C. I removed the same Radar unit and sold it for spares some years ago and have no replaced it (yet). Plotter is Navman 5600 which works but iPad works just as well. Instruments are ST60+. Autohelm was old Neco device.

My plans are not to spend £25k on instruments if I can help it, and if I do have to spend money spread the cost over a few years. So far: -

Ditched the Radar and not replaced it.
I would like AIS but don't consider it necessary.
Spent £350 updating charts cards for the Navman so that I had up to date electronic charts.
ST60+ work
Bought a new Raymarine Evolution ACU400 autohelm at Southhampton boat show and had the Neco motor converted to be driven from the ACU 400.

The next phase is to replace the Navman with a suitable Raymarine plotter.
I have bought a second hand Scanstrut pole for the radar antenna and may buy the radar at the same time as the plotter but that depends on work and spare cash.
Buy the AIS device.
Last phase will be to interface the log, depth and wind to the Raymarine backbone using some fo the gizmos that Raymarine have for that.

To get to where I am now has been 3 years and the cost of the Autohelm, easily afforded over the period. Maybe a staged update is something you could do.

 

[doug748]

.....
My advice is bite the bullet, scrap the lot and replace from one maker. Its not as if the boat is a cheap piece of French or German tat.

Either that or follow my suggestion and avoid networking and over complex software solutions, like the coronaflu.

.

 

[prv]

Either that or follow my suggestion and avoid networking and over complex software solutions, like the coronaflu.

Some people like to keep things basic and that’s fine, but the OP clearly isn’t in that category. He introduces himself with “I do love good tech” and intends to spend quite a few thousand pounds (just not “north of 25k”) on a “luxurious” total refit.

Projecting your own preferences onto him isn’t helpful.

Pete

 

[FlyingGoose]

Either that or follow my suggestion and avoid networking and over complex software solutions, like the coronaflu.

.

exactly
NASA instruments (300) some upgrades but still nasa , love them
Digital yacht AIS (400)
FURUNO RADAR (FREE) came with boat 821 still shows me targets not in color bloody shame that like color as an a aspie
OPEN CPN (FREE)
HUAWEI TABLET (100)
LENOVO LAPTOP (200)
24 INCH MONITOR (100)
RAYMARINE AUTO PILOT (1400) one free p70 head
LINEAR DRIVE FROM A BRITISH COMPANY WHICH IF YOU BUY DIRECT I 600 POUNDS CHEAPER (900)
BEAUTIFUL WIFE (the most expensive piece I have)

Auto pilot needed replaced the old neco , and the chain was rusted solid

Nothing integrated apart from AIS . my two autopilot heads are separate and work from my fingers either at the nav station or cockpit . got one free when I bought the first one
Why is there is a need to network or have It all talking to each other , I have never understood this just more sales people convincing you you need some thing when did you really NEED AIS what a waste of time unless in A crowded areas but then have we lost our eyes, but maybe fog , mmm very rare , fog horn , and slow down expecting that anything that can sink you will see you before they hit you with all their tech.
I suppose the argument is, does it make sailing easier , and safer ? , well I think there is another debate right there

 

[prv]

In my experience the old kit in good repair works a lot better than any of the new Raymarine/Simrad kit

I can’t comment on Simrad kit, nor standard instruments as I’ve kept my original ST60s, but my experience with Raymarine plotter, radar, and pilot is completely at odds with this assertion.

The new pilot performs far better than the old, and unlike the old one was trivial to set up and calibrate. The pilot control head, which I also use as the helmsman’s instrument display, works better for this purpose because of the improved screen. Control of the pilot from the plotter is very good and intuitive - small things like the “Engage” button always including a little display of what course change that will cause, or giving the option of whether to return to the previous track or ignore it and steer straight for the waypoint from the present position.

The plotter software generally is far more intuitive and task-focused than the old C-series. People who have those will be used to them by now and have internalised their quirks, but the menu layout on those things really was arbitrary and illogical in places. Lighthouse 3 just feels modern and straightforward, and of course being a touchscreen opens up far more possibilities for effective UI design (and no, I have had zero ”OMG, touchscreen onna boat!!!1!!” problems that people like to imagine).

Finally, the radar works significantly better than the old one. The tuning is automatic and works well - occasionally I put it in manual mode and fiddle, but never manage to improve on what it was doing on its own (unless my goal was to pick up rain-squalls with it, which the auto tuning naturally aims to filter out). The resolution is better. The target tracking actually works, which it never did on the old one - inevitably the numbers aren’t as accurate as AIS would be, but still perfectly fine for confident collision-avoidance through the shipping lanes when my old AIS receiver failed in thick fog. For the unpracticed radar operator (which most of us are) trying to plot all that traffic manually with the old set would have been hard work, stressful, and definitely less safe than having the computer do it. The fact that the new radome weighs a fraction of the old one (it almost felt empty as I was carrying it up the mast to install), uses much less power, and switches on instantly without a warm-up period are nice bonuses too.

Which kit is your experience with?

Pete

 

[doug748]

Some people like to keep things basic and that’s fine, but the OP clearly isn’t in that category. He introduces himself with “I do love good tech” and intends to spend quite a few thousand pounds (just not “north of 25k”) on a “luxurious” total refit.

Projecting your own preferences onto him isn’t helpful.

Pete

Can't see why my view should be censored . I have suggested he spends 5 grand it would be nearer 7 if he has the work done for him.

The OP asked:

"So my question is, what would you let go if you were in my position? "

I am giving my opinion as you are, you are stuck with it, as I am yours.

.

 

[roaringgirl]

If you can retain the old autopilot drive unit, the parts for your job will be 20-25% of what you have been quoted. If you are clever about it, you'll leave your options open for future replacements and upgrades.

You only need one chart plotter in this day and age. Tablets as repeaters work ok(ish) but really aren't necessary. Don't rely on a tablet outside, I have direct experience of it not working in bright sunlight, if your hands are wet or if it overheats.

Replace the bits that don't work with bits that are NMEA2000 - compatible so that your options are kept open.

I went through this whole process 2 years ago and fitted it all myself, it was all just mounting things and running cables. I wouldn't pay labour for it.

Definitely get radar as well as AIS if you're ever going to sail somewhere where not everyone uses AIS. Having chart, AIS and radar on the same screen, at the helm is wonderful and leaves you spending your time doing the fun stuff that computers can't do better than you!

Wireless (data) radar saves on an extra cable-run and works fine.

I chose to buy the interface boxes where necessary, to make old and new things talk to each other, that way it is going to be easier to replace the old units with new in the future.

Presumably the integration of a vhf is just the lat and long for DSC? I would look for a box of tricks to integrate your old one with the new NMEA2000 backbone.

 

[alexincornwall]

Some very interesting points raised here, thanks everyone.

One point made my Pete and others seems particularly logical - why continue with a chart based plotter? The reality of our current setup is that we'll bang in a few waypoints at the beginning of a trip, have a little look at the plotter when entering the log, but when pilotage or traffic get interesting, out come the mobile phones, Navionics and associated AIS apps. On a recent 6 week cruise along the Atlantic cost of France, I would have been more uncomfortable with not having a charged up phone/tablet than I would a functioning plotter down below. The action is at the helm, not the chart table so it seems logical for the main kit to be there.

In terms of branding, I'm not sure there is a huge amount in it these days but I was slightly swayed by B&G because their gear seems a bit more sailing orientated whereas Raymarine seems a little more universal in nature. I've also used their linkup app which essentially give you full plotter control from a mobile device and it works very well. AIS is brilliant but I would like the comfort of radar as we've found ourselves in fog on numerous occasions unsure as to whether what we see on AIS accounts for everything out there...

So it sounds as though the best way to retain some hard earned cash maybe as follows:

Go with the instrument upgrades.

Go with the radar install.

Put a 9 inch plotter at the helm (no room on the coachroof behind the spray hood). Have this integrated with autopilot, instruments, VHF for DSC calling, and the exiting Vesper transponder.

Sell the C120 and enjoy a clear chart table, maybe with a tablet in situ running the linkup app/Navionics etc.

Retain autopilot drive equipment.

It'll still be costly but at least we'll be up to date for the foreseeable. She's a great boat and I've put a huge amount of effort into her since ownership so it would be a shame to skimp too much in areas such as these. .

 

[prv]

In terms of branding, I'm not sure there is a huge amount in it these days but I was slightly swayed by B&G because their gear seems a bit more sailing orientated whereas Raymarine seems a little more universal in nature. I've also used their linkup app which essentially give you full plotter control from a mobile device and it works very well.

I think you're right about B&G being more sailing - certainly racing - oriented.

Raymarine made a deliberate decision with their new Lighthouse OS that it would be continually upgradeable - not minor bug fixes, but significant new chunks of function come out on a regular basis and are easy to install over marina wifi, a phone hotspot, or an SD card loaded at home. I think the latest version (which I haven't got round to installing yet) does have some more sail/race features, but B&G are traditionally the masters here.

All of them have similar tablet apps. Originally the Raymarine one didn't allow control of the pilot, as a safety measure (they were concerned about some random person on board taking over the steering without the skipper's awareness) but they've dropped that over-cautious restriction now.

Put a 9 inch plotter at the helm (no room on the coachroof behind the spray hood). Have this integrated with autopilot, instruments, VHF for DSC calling

Be aware that plotter integration with DSC can be hit-and-miss. It shouldn't be, as there are standard NMEA sentences for it, but for whatever reason manufacturers haven't always been great at implementing them. Presumably you're keeping the Icom, so will need a converter from NMEA2000 to NMEA0183 - check carefully what PGNs and sentences each piece of kit supports.

Pete

 

[Yngmar]

I can’t comment on Simrad kit, nor standard instruments as I’ve kept my original ST60s, but my experience with Raymarine plotter, radar, and pilot is completely at odds with this assertion.

The new pilot performs far better than the old, and unlike the old one was trivial to set up and calibrate. The pilot control head, which I also use as the helmsman’s instrument display, works better for this purpose because of the improved screen. Control of the pilot from the plotter is very good and intuitive - small things like the “Engage” button always including a little display of what course change that will cause, or giving the option of whether to return to the previous track or ignore it and steer straight for the waypoint from the present position.

The plotter software generally is far more intuitive and task-focused than the old C-series. People who have those will be used to them by now and have internalised their quirks, but the menu layout on those things really was arbitrary and illogical in places. Lighthouse 3 just feels modern and straightforward, and of course being a touchscreen opens up far more possibilities for effective UI design (and no, I have had zero ”OMG, touchscreen onna boat!!!1!!” problems that people like to imagine).

Finally, the radar works significantly better than the old one. The tuning is automatic and works well - occasionally I put it in manual mode and fiddle, but never manage to improve on what it was doing on its own (unless my goal was to pick up rain-squalls with it, which the auto tuning naturally aims to filter out). The resolution is better. The target tracking actually works, which it never did on the old one - inevitably the numbers aren’t as accurate as AIS would be, but still perfectly fine for confident collision-avoidance through the shipping lanes when my old AIS receiver failed in thick fog. For the unpracticed radar operator (which most of us are) trying to plot all that traffic manually with the old set would have been hard work, stressful, and definitely less safe than having the computer do it. The fact that the new radome weighs a fraction of the old one (it almost felt empty as I was carrying it up the mast to install), uses much less power, and switches on instantly without a warm-up period are nice bonuses too.

Which kit is your experience with?

Yep, there's some actual progress in technology to be had, notably in radar power consumption (which doesn't really matter in reality for most cruisers, which like I said probably end up using it a few times a year at best) and in autopilots, due to better sensors - although an old autopilot with a retrofit gyroscope sensor for a few quid does nearly as well.

The rest is gimmicks. Sure, the trend does go to gimmicky nonsense, and not just in electronics, it's everywhere. Whether you need a squatty potty to help you take a better dump or a variable speed water pump so your shower water flow doesn't slow down when you turn on the galley tap or you need to control your music player from your chartplotter is up to everyone, but it sure doesn't make the boat work better, and the side effect of all this superfluous stuff is that it often makes the boat work less well, because more complexity means more can (and will) break down and (for instruments) because you have more rubbish dangling off your NMEA bus and more code bloat in your firmware.

Specific kit? Let's see:

Raytheon/Autohelm era stuff (ST50/ST60/ST60+) - this is what we have (ST60). It's pretty solid stuff, very well engineered, no nonsense, super readable LCD displays, very repairable (thanks to leaked service manuals with circuit diagrams). This is probably why they to this day fetch good prices on the used market.

Then came NMEA2000 - a reasonably good idea at the time, gone a bit wrong. Most NMEA2000 implementations are terrible - with the exception of Maretron, who seem to have hired some experienced firmware programmers rather than an intern who did a webpage with some javascript once. Older Navico (= Simrad/Lowrance/B&G) kit would plain freeze if there were any non-Navico devices on the bus. Newer ones only freeze at random for no reason at all. ST70 crashes if the bus had a problem with termination, short-circuits or coming apart (something that can happen anytime you're underway due to water ingress, corrosion, vibration or cables chafing/being crushed), although at least Raymarine implemented a hardware watchdog that notices the unresponsiveness and resets the instrument. Haven't tried this on current gen Raymarine kit, but feel free if you have some - just open up your N2k bus at any T-Piece and see what the various devices do now. If they do anything other than tell you there is a problem with the bus, the firmware is rubbish at the lowest layer and you can't trust it. Even Windows (the peak of mediocrity in software) doesn't crash just because you unplugged the Ethernet. Old IBM servers I used to work on would not only tell you there was a cable fault, they would measure the runtime of the reflected signal and tell you how many meters down the cable the fault was.

Recent B&G kit has looked particularly flawed to me, but that's because I got exposed to more of it recently (seems to be what they fit on new boats these days). Hardware that fails a few weeks after the warranty expires, Triton displays that freeze and show false data for hours before someone notices it, VHF antenna splitters that get stuck on one path after a few weeks each and all the manufacturer does is send an endless supply of warranty replacements of the same flawed box rather than admit there is a problem and revise their junk. And firmware upgrades that are so utterly confusing the average sailor can't deal with them at all - with poor and conflicting documentation to boot.

Now you might say, but we have mediocre rubbish everywhere! And right you are, it's all over the place, from mobile phones full to cheap Chinese made swimwear that lasts one season if you don't go in the sun too much. But the difference is, that's all cheap consumer stuff, while these marine gimmick manufacturers are asking a fortune for their kit, and that's where I get annoyed. If I'm going to plonk down several ten grand for some marine electronics, I would expect them to last for more than a year and be the absolute pinnacle of engineering - as good as in airplanes (oh wait...oops).

Ok, that's enough ranting from me now The OP said they liked good tech, but the right answer depends on whether you place the emphasis on good or on tech...

 

[prv]

So from that I can extract some low-level N2k issues in older products, and poor build quality in recent Navico kit.

It's a big leap from that to "anything designed since 2003 is rubbish". And while you clearly understand electronics, it sounds like your experience as an installer, owner, and user of current-generation gear is limited.

Pete

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Yep, there's some actual progress in technology to be had, notably in radar power consumption (which doesn't really matter in reality for most cruisers, which like I said probably end up using it a few times a year at best) and in autopilots, due to better sensors - although an old autopilot with a retrofit gyroscope sensor for a few quid does nearly as well.

The rest is gimmicks. Sure, the trend does go to gimmicky nonsense, and not just in electronics, it's everywhere. Whether you need a squatty potty to help you take a better dump or a variable speed water pump so your shower water flow doesn't slow down when you turn on the galley tap or you need to control your music player from your chartplotter is up to everyone, but it sure doesn't make the boat work better, and the side effect of all this superfluous stuff is that it often makes the boat work less well, because more complexity means more can (and will) break down and (for instruments) because you have more rubbish dangling off your NMEA bus and more code bloat in your firmware.

Specific kit? Let's see:

Raytheon/Autohelm era stuff (ST50/ST60/ST60+) - this is what we have (ST60). It's pretty solid stuff, very well engineered, no nonsense, super readable LCD displays, very repairable (thanks to leaked service manuals with circuit diagrams). This is probably why they to this day fetch good prices on the used market.

Then came NMEA2000 - a reasonably good idea at the time, gone a bit wrong. Most NMEA2000 implementations are terrible - with the exception of Maretron, who seem to have hired some experienced firmware programmers rather than an intern who did a webpage with some javascript once. Older Navico (= Simrad/Lowrance/B&G) kit would plain freeze if there were any non-Navico devices on the bus. Newer ones only freeze at random for no reason at all. ST70 crashes if the bus had a problem with termination, short-circuits or coming apart (something that can happen anytime you're underway due to water ingress, corrosion, vibration or cables chafing/being crushed), although at least Raymarine implemented a hardware watchdog that notices the unresponsiveness and resets the instrument. Haven't tried this on current gen Raymarine kit, but feel free if you have some - just open up your N2k bus at any T-Piece and see what the various devices do now. If they do anything other than tell you there is a problem with the bus, the firmware is rubbish at the lowest layer and you can't trust it. Even Windows (the peak of mediocrity in software) doesn't crash just because you unplugged the Ethernet. Old IBM servers I used to work on would not only tell you there was a cable fault, they would measure the runtime of the reflected signal and tell you how many meters down the cable the fault was.

Recent B&G kit has looked particularly flawed to me, but that's because I got exposed to more of it recently (seems to be what they fit on new boats these days). Hardware that fails a few weeks after the warranty expires, Triton displays that freeze and show false data for hours before someone notices it, VHF antenna splitters that get stuck on one path after a few weeks each and all the manufacturer does is send an endless supply of warranty replacements of the same flawed box rather than admit there is a problem and revise their junk. And firmware upgrades that are so utterly confusing the average sailor can't deal with them at all - with poor and conflicting documentation to boot.

Now you might say, but we have mediocre rubbish everywhere! And right you are, it's all over the place, from mobile phones full to cheap Chinese made swimwear that lasts one season if you don't go in the sun too much. But the difference is, that's all cheap consumer stuff, while these marine gimmick manufacturers are asking a fortune for their kit, and that's where I get annoyed. If I'm going to plonk down several ten grand for some marine electronics, I would expect them to last for more than a year and be the absolute pinnacle of engineering - as good as in airplanes (oh wait...oops).

Ok, that's enough ranting from me now The OP said they liked good tech, but the right answer depends on whether you place the emphasis on good or on tech...

I upgraded from non dsc radio, trailing log, seafarer 5 and hand held anemometer to Triton 2 with wireless wind, DST800, V50 radio camino 801s AIS transponder and Point 1 GPS and Compass almost 3 years ago all networked and with a Vyacht wifi bridge to connect mobiles devices . It's worked flawlessly apart from 1 anomaly since then. The anomaly is that when I sail in waters deeper than 200m I get random shallow depths displayed. not exactly a problem but I'm not hiding anything. Everything else has Just worked for extended periods up to 19 days continuous operation.

My reality does not match your bias.

 

[Yngmar]

I'm certainly not the only one who has observed these issues. Some more reading here, and lots more if you follow the "Wall of Shame" tag: NMEA 2000 Device Score Card

 

[Jamie Dundee]

I’ve got a suite of Simrad electronics, the same hardware as B&G but mobo rather than sailing software. Simrad NSS7 evo3, NSS7 evo2, RS40B VHF/AIS transponder, 3G radar and a Lowrance HDS10 gen2, Totalscan and Airmar B17 transducers. All networked via NMEA2k and ethernet. I don’t recognise any of the frailties posted here, all excellent kit and ultra reliable. I won’t have an antenna splitter on board though and have separate 2.4m Simrad antennae for VHF and AIS. I suggest that anyone incapable of downloading a firmware update file and applying it should seriously consider staying in bed in the mornings (I download updates direct via WiFi using my mobile as a WiFi hotspot).