Complete electronics refit... or perhaps not

Shuggy said:
And absolutely no worms in the bucket in my experience. There is a bunch of naysayers on here - I found integrating SeaTalk 2, NMEA 0183, NMEA 2k and SeaTalk NG fine. You just need to talk to people, read the manual and wire competently. Why do some posters on here want to pick holes in everything? Or everyone? Weird.
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Some of us have been on boats where complex networked systems have stopped working.
I can live with any one thing having a day off, but when some gremlin takes out everything at once, you suddenly wish the depth sounder was independent of the chart plotter.

I think you have to be clear what it's doing for you. There is a danger it will get like Windoze, suddenly some upgrades mean something is obsolete after 6 years. It becomes a lot to keep on top of and it can be completely opaque when you buy a used boat.
Look at the threads on here where new owners are struggling to work out WTF they've bought just in terms of a 12V charging system. Move that on to a network containing 3 types of bus and a few interface 'black boxes' and wonder about the chances of it going pear shaped?

I've been through a few FMEA escapades in avionics and quite like the idea of a depth sounder that can only be prevented from working by enemy action. As opposed to NMEA inaction....

OTOH, you can't beat being able to see the info you want from where you need to be in the boat.
 
TernVI said:
Some of us have been on boats where complex networked systems have stopped working.
I can live with any one thing having a day off, but when some gremlin takes out everything at once, you suddenly wish the depth sounder was independent of the chart plotter.

I think you have to be clear what it's doing for you. There is a danger it will get like Windoze, suddenly some upgrades mean something is obsolete after 6 years. It becomes a lot to keep on top of and it can be completely opaque when you buy a used boat.
Look at the threads on here where new owners are struggling to work out WTF they've bought just in terms of a 12V charging system. Move that on to a network containing 3 types of bus and a few interface 'black boxes' and wonder about the chances of it going pear shaped?

I've been through a few FMEA escapades in avionics and quite like the idea of a depth sounder that can only be prevented from working by enemy action. As opposed to NMEA inaction....

OTOH, you can't beat being able to see the info you want from where you need to be in the boat.
Click to expand...

The depth sounder should be independent of the plotter, as i described earlier. Same with wind. Just because systems are integrated does not mean that a failure of one instrument brings the whole system down. Using my own system as an example:

The VHF can be used stand alone, it has its own 12v circuit.
The plotter can also be used stand alone, it too has its own 12v circuit.
The auto pilot is the same.

The N2K network is also on its own circuit, so no part of the system can lose power and take out any other equipment. If an individual piece of equipment fails everything keep working. If the N2K network loses power i lose wind and depth, little different to what happens if one of the sensors fails. I can also just power the N2K network, with the plotter and everything else turned off, so i can independently monitor wind and depth.

Your opening two lines in this post suggest one of two things (possibly both). 1) You don't understand how modern electronics interconnect 2) Whoever installed the systems you describe didn't understand how they work and how best to install a system that isn't reliant on a single point of failure.
 
Anybody else ever had multiple instruments lock up?

If you've got two instruments putting data on a bus, and one of them locks up the bus, then the other won't be able to put data on the bus.
So the depth sounder might be working perfectly, which is no use if its data doesn't reach a display you can see.
 
PaulRainbow said:
The depth sounder should be independent of the plotter, as i described earlier. Same with wind. Just because systems are integrated does not mean that a failure of one instrument brings the whole system down. Using my own system as an example:

The VHF can be used stand alone, it has its own 12v circuit.
The plotter can also be used stand alone, it too has its own 12v circuit.
The auto pilot is the same.

The N2K network is also on its own circuit, so no part of the system can lose power and take out any other equipment. If an individual piece of equipment fails everything keep working. If the N2K network loses power i lose wind and depth, little different to what happens if one of the sensors fails. I can also just power the N2K network, with the plotter and everything else turned off, so i can independently monitor wind and depth.

Your opening two lines in this post suggest one of two things (possibly both). 1) You don't understand how modern electronics interconnect 2) Whoever installed the systems you describe didn't understand how they work and how best to install a system that isn't reliant on a single point of failure.
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Thats the same power setup I have, everything independent. I'd like to claim to was the result of foresight, but actually it was just in consequence of buying installing all the things separately over time.

TernVI said:
Anybody else ever had multiple instruments lock up?
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Nope.....
 
TernVI said:
Anybody else ever had multiple instruments lock up?

If you've got two instruments putting data on a bus, and one of them locks up the bus, then the other won't be able to put data on the bus.
So the depth sounder might be working perfectly, which is no use if its data doesn't reach a display you can see.
Click to expand...
CAN bus is used in many industries including as you know aircraft FBW architecture. Your scenario of "an instrument locking up the bus" is not something I have experienced and even if I did it would clear itself with as the first node detecting a problem will transmit an error flag if the problem is data. I check my data log on the Triton 2 after every trip as part of my shutdown. I so far have had ZERO data errors in 3 years!!!
I would be interested to know what sensors and instruments were on your network and of course was it n2K or 183 which might well explain your problem ;-)
 
Hi all,

Since many of you very informatively commented on this post last month, I thought I should provide an update: This was not a £25K quote after all!

I rejected the quotation on the basis that I considered £15K to be OTT for labour and the very decent electrician immediately looked at what had been listed on the estimate, sighed, laughed and then apologised for hitting an extra zero. Now we're down to £1.5K!!!

So with a more palatable labour bill to look forward to and having acted on the advice of leaving the chart table plotter and retaining our old autopilot drives, we're back in business.

B&G Zeus 3 9" (helm mounted)
B&G Halo 2 radar
B&G Trident 2 (3 in cockpit, 1 at the chart table)
B&G Triton controller

New masthead wind gear, plotter helm pod, transducer, network cables etc. etc.

I'd like to garner opinions on autopilot control if I may. The Triton controller to be fitted is/was to replace the ST7000 controller which is sited on the starboard side of the cockpit within easy reach of the helm. I'm aware that full autopilot control can be had from the B&G plotter, but felt more comfortable having a physical standby button to hand should I need to take control at short notice. Now I'm wondering if that might be a bit over cautious and that I should use the plotter and either leave the triton controller altogether or potentially put it down below at the chart table.

It seems unlikely that I'd want to control the direction of the boat from down below, but also seems a bit illogical to have (the only) two separate controls within a couple of foot of each other.

What do'ya reckon?
 
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I suppose it depends how obvious and accessible the B&G software makes the Standby button on the plotter. Might you be looking down poking around in some menu, look up to check your surroundings and see a lobsterpot in front, and have to frantically cancel out of all the menus before you can turn the wheel? My Raymarine plotter puts a Standby button at the top of the screen whenever the pilot's engaged, but I don't remember offhand whether it floats over menus or gets hidden behind them. In my case it doesn't matter since I have a dedicated controller at the wheel and the plotter's under the sprayhood, so I'll always be using the physical button to take manual control.

Assuming you don't have a deck saloon from which you can keep a lookout, I agree that changing course from down below seems unlikely, especially since with a modern plotter in the cockpit you're unlikely to use the chart table as much as you think.

Pete
 
I've just checked the manual for the Zeus 9. It appears that it has a physical button (the one with a wheel on it top-left of the knob) to put the pilot in standby. It also opens the pilot control window, which presumably makes it easy to engage it. This would seem to make the dedicated pilot controller more or less redundant. If I was putting this plotter at the helm, I don't think I'd bother with the separate controller.

Pete
 
prv said:
I've just checked the manual for the Zeus 9. It appears that it has a physical button (the one with a wheel on it top-left of the knob) to put the pilot in standby. It also opens the pilot control window, which presumably makes it easy to engage it. This would seem to make the dedicated pilot controller more or less redundant. If I was putting this plotter at the helm, I don't think I'd bother with the separate controller.

Pete
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Thanks Pete, that's very interesting. I didn't check the manual as I'd been reliably (or perhaps not), informed that the control did require use of the touch screen and would require more than one menu option. That pretty much decides it then.
 
Buck Turgidson said:
I'd stick with the Buttons in case of rain.
why do you need 3 Triron2 displays in the cockpit? 2 should be ample. i make do with 1.
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Very well spotted! Two would have sufficed - one for wind, one for depth/speed etc. Alas, we have three holes in the boat from the old ST50s! I quite like the idea of having the third instrument for whatever might take my fancy; probably AIS when I'm wedged under the spray hood mid channel in the middle of the night and can't see the plotter. But yes, a bit over extravagant.
 
KompetentKrew said:
I certainly doubt the need for one at the chart table. What would it show?

The whole of the chartplotter can be mirrored to a £150 tablet with the B&G Link app.
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Everything that I would like to see without going outside and lat/long for my log which I maintain religiously. Plus I would need to cover a hole in the panelling from the ST50 that currently resides there...
 
I highly recommend you find someone with a B&G (you're welcome to see mine if you're in Faro) and try the Link app for yourself.

You can see far more using it than you could on a Triton².
 
alexincornwall said:
Thank you! My expectations haven't been high based on the reviews, would you disagree?

‎Link: Connect Your Boat
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I'd absolutely disagree, but I use an Android tablet on which Link is brilliant (not iPad or phone).

In fact I've used it on more than one tablet - previously on an Amazon Fire and currently on a Samsung Galaxy Tab 5Se.

Perhaps it is because I only have the 7" Vulcan, the display via Link is even better than on the chartplotter itself. I use Link constantly.
 
KompetentKrew said:
I certainly doubt the need for one at the chart table. What would it show?
Click to expand...

I do find a navigation data display at the chart table useful - in my case it's an ICS Navtex which can also be connected to NMEA0183 and set to display a selection of instrument data. I use it on longer passages to put the log reading against the hourly chart fixes; many would also get the lat/long from it (I have a Yeoman) and perhaps log other pieces of data besides miles run.

In some conditions it's also useful to have a wind and/or depth readout in the saloon when at anchor.

KompetentKrew said:
The whole of the chartplotter can be mirrored to a £150 tablet with the B&G Link app.
Click to expand...

That'd work, perhaps with a dedicated tablet semi-permanently mounted at the chart table and essentially used as a cheaper and larger instrument display. Although the experience won't be quite as slick - having to turn it on manually, fire up the relevant app, etc, instead of the display just being there, and packaging issues like the power cable coming out the side instead of the back. The OP isn't trying to do this on a shoestring, so the dedicated hardware may still be preferred.

Pete
 
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