Complete electronics refit... or perhaps not

alexincornwall

alexincornwall

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Hi All,

Interested in receiving some opinions on my silly first world problem. We're looking at having a complete refit of the nav/instrument electronics on our Bowman 40 this Autumn/Winter. She's currently equipped with some pretty vintage equipment as follows:

Plotter:

Raymarine C120 classic (nav station based) running Navionics Gold CF card based charts. The plotter is connected to a Vesper AIS transponder but nothing else (no NMEA 2000 input). No autopilot interaction.
No plotter repeater installed at helm.

AIS:

Vesper Marine XB-8000 with WiFi.

VHF:

New Icom unit.

Radar:

Very old Furuno scanner (not working) with a rather antique standalone display.

Instruments:

Autohelm ST50 multifunction display at chart table, with wind, sounder and speed displays in cockpit. The contrast is shot on all, the windvane annometer is missing at the mast head, the paddle wheel is a nuisance for clogging up and we’ve had some erratic displays from the in-hull transducer (this may be a faulty Airmar transducer).

Autopilot is controlled by an ST7000 display and works well but I suspect the fluxgate compass needs calibration. The contrast on the display is also knackered.

Everything works (apart from radar), though only just on some equipment. The instruments and their respective sensors are in a bad way. My plan was to bring everything up to date as follows:

New B&G instrument displays
New B&G plotter at chart table with a further B&G repeater installed in a binnacle pod at the helm
New B&G radar scanner to integrate with new plotter
New B&G autopilot control and drives
New cabling throughout, masthead kit and speed/depth transducers

All pretty luxurious and I do love good tech.

I've had a quote from a very reputable fitter and I whilst I was always a expecting a pretty hefty bill, the estimate is simply more than I can stomach (north of £25K).

So my question is, what would you let go if you were in my position? We sail a fair amount, mainly European, a few thousand NM most years. Nothing seriously blue water on the horizon for now though I'd like to think that might change one day.

The instruments and their accompanying kit are a given.
Is it silly to replace the C120 plotter given that it works fine, though obviously lacks the refinement of new kit?
Do I really need a helm based plotter given the wonders of phones, tablets, and a perfectly good plotter at the chart table?
We have AIS so I should be falling over myself for radar?
If you were replacing your autopilot system, would you pay another £2K+ to replace existing working drive arms, or would you consider not replacing to be a weak link?
Or would you stump up the cash, safe in the knowledge that everything will (hopefully), be good for years to come?
How should I approach this with the wife?!?!? I don't think flowers are going to cut it.
 
Last edited:
alexincornwall said:
New B&G plotter at chart table with a further B&G repeater installed in a binnacle pod at the helm
Click to expand...
I wouldn't have a plotter down below - you just use the B&G Link app.

Big screen plotters are expensive, but you can display a 7" plotter on a 10" tablet. ??
Samsung A10 is £150 or the 5SE is a bit thinner and nicer at about £400.

Sorry I'm not qualified to comment on the rest of your question.
 
That 25k is insane, and presumably mostly labour? I'm not particularly familiar with the B&G range and I know that individual instrument displays seem to be unreasonably expensive nowadays and will quickly add up, but even so my gut feel for the main hardware would be about a quarter of that. Ok, perhaps a bit more once you add in proprietary cables and fiddly bits, and maybe my gut feel is out of date, but still, 25k seems way over the odds.

To answer some specific questions:

  • Given that you're clearly not on a shoestring budget, I think the C120 is due for replacement. If you're getting other new stuff, it will expect to be integrated with the corresponding modern plotter and you'll be giving up utility by not having it. Also the entire C-series range is on borrowed time now for the notorious stripy-screen problem, so you might as well preempt that rather than having to replace it ad-hoc when it goes wrong.
  • I don't think you need two plotters - but I strongly suggest putting the single one in the cockpit. Plotters at the chart table are a hang-over from navigating on paper which couldn't be taken into an exposed cockpit. Don't hide your situational awareness (position, surroundings, AIS targets, radar) down below where you can only check it occasionally, con your vessel from the cockpit with everything at your fingertips.
    Note that "in the cockpit" doesn't have to mean "at the helm". Personally I like having this stuff under the sprayhood, at the front of the cockpit. But it will depend on your layout.
    If you remain determined to do plotter work in the saloon, that's where the tablet comes in. It'll be much happier there out of the rain and sun. Let the designed-for-purpose plotter handle those.
  • Radar depends whether you're ever likely to find yourself in fog. If you can't answer that with a confident "no", then I think it's worth having. Modern radar (at least the Raymarine kit I have, but I assume other brands are similar) is much more effective and easier to use than the old type, and uses far less power. Mine cost £1300 and worth every penny of that on my last Channel crossing in unforecast thick fog.
  • I did replace my autopilot system, and I didn't replace the drive unit. At least in the Raymarine world, the design of the mechanical parts hasn't changed in at least 20 years, so if there's no signs of wear then there's no reason to replace it "just because". Replacing the control gear, though, has made a very big difference to the effectiveness of the pilot and again was well worth it.
Pete
 
Certainly would not stump up 25k for what are, in effect, little more than toys; however:

Keep the plotter and use a tablet/phone in the cockpit.

Bin the radar and buy a standalone Furuno for 2.5k

Look out for used, but good, ST50 kit, to replace as necessary say 1k

Replace the helm control head/ compass unit if poss (look out for used backup drive arms, as you go) - 1.5k?

Tell the ole missus you have saved the family 20 thousand quid - happy days, Christmas Eve for you my lad.


Nice boat.

.
 
doug748 said:
Bin the radar and buy a standalone Furuno for 2.5k
Click to expand...

You could buy a plotter and radar for that, if you don't go Furuno. From my own refit plan/budget:
Raymarine T70266 Quantum Q24C 18” Radar with 15m Power & Data Cables £1329
Raymarine E70366 Axiom 9, 9" Multifunction Display (no sonar or chart options) £1245
Click to expand...
Pete
 
I have just started on the B&G route but was not in a position to purchase all at once. I installed a 9" Vulcan plotter at the helm which I am so far very impressed with and was £899. I use the B&G link app on a tablet which allows you to control the plotter down below if you wish. I have also bought the wireless wind, depth and log pack at £1100 complete with Triton 2 control screen. I have still to fit this as I am having difficulty pairing the masthead unit with the receiver unit.

My next purchase will be the autopilot but cant decide on whether to go for the nac2 or nac 3 unit....these are expensive but the old wheelpilot I had was just not powerfull enough to helm the boat at 10,000 kg

Can you not keep your ais transponder and link it with a new B&G plotter?

Have you considered self installation as it all seems pretty much plug and play......apart from my minor issue with pairing the wireless unit.
 
Furuno First watch Radar on Ipad , Ipad at helm running what ever you fancy. 2 for one right there get your AIS networked so the ipad can pick it up . , new compass and calibrate , Second hand iPAD X2 less than 3000 all in easy , take the wife on a nice holiday
 
I think that if you want to enjoy the boat fully, an integrated set has many advantages, including having radar and plotter on a single screen. What you have in the cockpit and below depends on the boat and how you use it, but iPad as repeater is very much a second-rate alternative, especially in sunlight. I use a Graphic Repeater in the cockpit to display COG, SOG, + waypoint parameters but those with wheel will prefer a screen at the helm. I upgraded my stuff some eight years ago and the convenience of it has given me a lot of pleasure.
 
That's a lot of money for labour if you just price up the parts.
I'm a big fan of my triton 2 and would love to add to it but the autopilot options from B&G don't make sense on my little boat. I'm a fan of iPad for plotter so won't comment on that except to say you really don't need 2.
 
I’m in no position to look at replacing my current set up which is ancient Raymarine kit (some labeled Raytheon, it’s that old) but I’ve done the dreaming often enough....
But the basis of whatever kit I eventually get round to buying will be: plotter at the helm, big enough to be able to display depth, log wind etc round the chart image. Radar scanner, probably via wifi to cut down on the wiring. AIS and VHF integrated into the system so as to be able to make calls to nearby vessels. Below will be an iPad in a holder, linked to the plotter via wif: that’ll provide the log keeper/navigator with all the same information as the helm has. iPad is not intended for use anywhere else for navigation, so no case and permanent plug in available for charging.
Autopilot will be linked into the system (as it is at present). I’ll probably update it at the same time as the rest of the kit except for the drive and rudder sensor hardware which is doing fine at present.
£25k is well over the top unless there’s an enormous quantity of old wiring to rip out and replace and even then it’s a bit steep. Perhaps the chap doesn’t really want to do the job?
 
Buck Turgidson said:
That's a lot of money for labour if you just price up the parts.
I'm a big fan of my triton 2 and would love to add to it but the autopilot options from B&G don't make sense on my little boat. I'm a fan of iPad for plotter so won't comment on that except to say you really don't need 2.
Click to expand...
What happens if one breaks . 2 second hand ipads are still half the price of a plotter, get rid of the plotter down stars and mount the ipad easy .
or run a laptop and a tablet from pedestal . but then I prefer to sail ,i think in my 5 week trip this year I did not turn on my AIS, nor my radar , and even had the tablet off, and the auto pilot never went on ,
I sailed ny boat the old fashioned way , like I steered it and used my eyes and wonderful navigation skills by route planning on a paper map , marking any issues and eye balling them as I passed , like oh look there is a cardinal bouy. . yes I had fog, rain, storms even seen a boat or 2 , I even got out my old bugle fog horn and gave it a blast or two as well . Bloody marvelous what sailing is all about iMHO ofc, god only knows why we need so much data , and information coming in and all integrated onto a little screen so we can see how far we have went in 3 mns ..
Then I do not have a mobile phone , luxury :LOL:
 
FlyingGoose said:
What happens if one breaks . 2 second hand ipads are still half the price of a plotter, get rid of the plotter down stars and mount the ipad easy .
or run a laptop and a tablet from pedestal . but then I prefer to sail ,i think in my 5 week trip this year I did not turn on my AIS, nor my radar , and even had the tablet off, and the auto pilot never went on ,
I sailed ny boat the old fashioned way , like I steered it and used my eyes and wonderful navigation skills by route planning on a paper map , marking any issues and eye balling them as I passed , like oh look there is a cardinal bouy. . yes I had fog, rain, storms even seen a boat or 2 , I even got out my old bugle fog horn and gave it a blast or two as well . Bloody marvelous what sailing is all about iMHO ofc, god only knows why we need so much data , and information coming in and all integrated onto a little screen so we can see how far we have went in 3 mns ..
Then I do not have a mobile phone , luxury :LOL:
Click to expand...

My quote was about two fixed plotters. You sailed in fog but did't switch on your AIS or Radar? As for the rest it's all in my youtube videos including blowing my bugle fog horn.
 
alexincornwall said:
............

All pretty luxurious and I do love good tech..............
Click to expand...


Beware then of getting sucked into a vortex of tripe which revolves around "stuff" none of which gives any extra worth to your sailing or adds a tot to your safety afloat.

Buy the minimum, make sure it speaks only unto itself. Treat yourself to something useful instead like new sails, buy MrsAlex some new frocks, happy days.

.
 
£25k is a lot of money for an electronics refit.

I'm not going to go into full depth detail here, but:

Keep the Icom.
Keep the AIS.

Keep the autohelm drive, i assume a Raymarine below decks linear drive ? This should be OK with B&G, Raymarine or Garmin auto pilot core packs.

Bin everything else.

Fit a new Airmar DST810 depth/speed/temp sensor.
Fit a new wind sensor, doesn't have to be brand specific, a standard N2K one is £224.

Fit one plotter at the helm, use a cheap android tablet down below, on a bracket, plugged in. The appropriate app' will mirror the plotter, showing AIS and radar overlays. Buy a tablet with built in GPS (Samsung Galaxy TAB A, 10", about £140) and it doubles up as a backup plotter that is independent of the boat systems.

Fit a new autohelm core pack and use the old Raymarine drive. Saves about £1500

You do not have to have anything else down below, as the tablet will show all data from the plotter. But, in this installation i would plan to have the N2K network on it's own circuit, so the plotter/radar/AIS can be powered off separately, in which case i would have one 4" display below.

You will need minimum small displays in the cockpit, as everything can be shown on the plotter. You'll obviously have the autopilot control in the cockpit, i like to have a separate wind display and one multi display to show depth, speed etc.

If you really want radar, fit the radome of your choice.

In keeping the autohelm drive, Icom VHF and AIS, you are still free to choose any manufacturer for the rest of the equipment, but stick to one brand.

Difficult to get that that to come to anything like £25k, but for £25k i'll travel to you and do the installation :)
 
Can't fault Paul's advice there.

Personally I'd pick Raymarine for the new kit, but I'm not familiar enough with the other big brands to do a proper fair comparison.

Pete
 
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