Classic Sunseeker advice please

[Nito]

Good morning all,

We are in the market for a classic Sunseeker. It would be our first boat and we began our search nearly a year ago. Initially we were looking at either a San Remo 33 or a Martinique 36. Both fabulous designs by all accounts the layout of which suits us perfectly and both able to accommodate quite a few people for local trips out. Pretty much all the boats we have looked at so far have been pretty much ruled out, each one for unique reasons and strangely, no two boats have had the same issues which is pleasing somewhat because the perfect boat may still be out there, rather than them all being affected by the same issues!

As time has gone on, the budget has become a bit more flexible which has opened up some other options. We have been to see many boats which has been great because you get a feel for what to look out for and various reference points for expectations.

Late last year we tried to take the plunge on a perfect Martinique 39 (this one... Sunseeker Martinique 39 (Complete Refited) Used Boat for Sale 1994(SOLD) | TheYachtMarket )which was as new having been expensively refitted and recently repowered with Volvo D3 220's. Unfortunately while we were making our decision someone else put a deposit on the boat the day before we went back to confirm (you snooze you lose!) and frustratingly, that sale took 3 months to complete so we have sat tight until it had gone through. Having fallen in love with the Martinique 39, the San Remo 33 now seems a little on the small side cabin wise. We would be basing the boat at Dover and would look to do some holiday trips around the coast Marina hopping in the summer and local outings with friends and family to accommodate between 8-12 people on board. I still wonder if the San Remo 33 (approx 35ft with its platform) would be the best bet for a first boat, being easier to manage in marinas etc, best on fuel, easier to get on a plane etc.

I think we've pretty much narrowed the range down to;

San Remo 33 (35ft) wrap around seating at the rear, excellent use of space, small main and secondary berth. Sea keeping(shorter/lighter)? Volvo AD41.
San Remo 35 beautiful looking boat but seating area on deck limited which has sadly ruled this out despite being one of the most handsome boats.
Martinique 36 (which is 38ft long anyway) has generous cabin space inside and the most seating on deck of any boat we are looking at. But it's a climb over transom. Volvo AD41 powered.
Martinique 39 benefits from all the way around seating and has a cut out in the transom for boarding. (Volvo KAD or Yamaha ME420 STI powered)
Portofino 400 which has a much smaller seating provision on deck making it a bit cosy, but much nicer and more modern internal layout with proper shower cubicles. These are on shaft drives rather than the sterndrives of the Martiniques.(Volvo or Yamaha ME420STi powered)

While looking at this level (now that we're getting up to 40ft anyway), it is hard to ignore;
Mustique 42 (Cabin privacy with rear cabin under sun beds) typically on twin Detroit Diesels 550hp shaft. Seating probably too limited on deck.
Camargue 46 The beautiful Camargue, also on twin DD 550hp on shafts with once again rear cabin under the rear sunbeds.

Does anyone have experience on more than one of the above? The Martinique 36, at 38ft seems perfectly manageable. Is jumping up to a Camargue 46 unwise or too much for a first boat? I've done research on the DD engines and they don't put me off and likewise sterndrives don't deter me either. I do wonder if seakeeping on any of the shaft drive boats above would be significantly better than the sterndrive Martiniques. The shaft boats here are heavier, arguably better weight distribution from a sea keeping perspective and seem to cut through choppier sea far more smoothly from the videos I have seen. Is it the case that they offer better seakeeping or is it just the helmsmanship in the videos?!

So basically, any advice on the above boats would be hugely appreciated. I understand fuel costs would be more on the DD/shaft boats, I really like the idea of the Yamaha ME420 powered options. There aren't really that many boats on the market at the moment, and it's almost a case of whichever one that ticks the most boxes comes along. Unlike the Martinique 39 we tried to buy, none of the others have instantly jumped out at us, we don't mind doing work on one but that has to be reflected in the price we're prepared to pay and buyers obviously have a figure in their mind of what they will take which introduces a lot of variables into the mix!

I think the main question buried somewhere here is;

Which one from the shortlist...Martinique 39, Portofino 400 or Camargue 46, all things considered?!

Many thanks in advance for any help, comments, opinions,

kind regards
Nito

 

[Portofino]

Camargue 46 , less likely to want to go through selling / buying again , or you will be more satisfied for longer .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

You might have been blessed for not buying that Martinque 39. I would suggest you go to the Vatican four times a year for the next four years and let the Pope bless you well.
D3-220 a 2.4 litre engine on a twelve meter Sunseeker, add to this the not so good reviews of the D3....
Who ever did this did refit or has no idea what he was doing or really wanted to give a lemon to someone.

 

[Nito]

Thanks gents for the responses so far.

@Portofino , I hear what you say about the Camargue, it seems to have awesome seakeeping but I worry is it too much boat to handle at close quarters? ( though it is only a case of experience at the end of the day and I’m usually one for jumping into the deep end and have always coped well so far) but also a case of the additional expense (additional mooring, fuel, maintenance items (2 bathrooms, more to go wrong etc) though shaft may be less maintenance effort than outdrives and the DD’s do sound great and being handed should be easier to work on.

@PowerYachtBlog , on that particular Martinique, I did a lot of research on the D3’s and there were some horrific horror stories as you point out, but most of those were from 2009 ish iirc, these were installed in 2016 by which time I understand they were all sorted out but their rep was already tarnished for good by then. On the positive side, they are very light engines, with good output and frugal, make a great sound and running a late EVC system (which also put me off a bit), not a fan of too much electronics but again they seem to be getting more reliable but a ba$$tard to diagnose when it comes to fault finding! I guess being aluminium, they are a lighter duty engine no doubt. They were professionally fitted as part of a 90k euro refit.

Mustiques seem to be fitted with DD’s or TAMD72’s, again lots of horror stories on both of these. The DD’s seem to be misunderstood and apparently require rebuilding at 1000-1500 hours, I think there is a lot to be said for them but they aren’t fuel efficient by all accounts. The TAMD’s, I don’t know much about, I hear part prices and rebuild costs are exorbitant but aren’t they on most?

It’s a minefield buying a boat and the initial outlay is just the start!! We’re being cautious and picky but half the battle is buying a good one at the outset. I don’t want to be sinking fortunes into one after purchase unless it was bought for the right money in the first place. They seem to hold their base residuals quite well, the rest of the outlay is ‘pay to play’!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

They where not professionally fitted. Who ever puts a 2.4 litre engines on a 39 foot Sunseeker does not understand a toss about boats, whatever he and his CV might say.

As I said say thank you lord for the deal not happening.

Tamd 72s are very reliable engines, I sold a Rodman 410 with them never an issue.

 

[Meagain]

You sound a lot like us buying our second boat, alot of research determining the boat then nearly a 2 year search. The reality is it’s not like buying a car, with low build volumes and not many on the market at the moment the perfect boat is the needle in a haystack throw into it the price you want to pay vs the price the seller wants (or someone else will pay) it’s challenging.
a couple of times we found ‘the‘ boat which needed work (only ever cosmetic, as engine cost can really run away) but the price wasn’t right for us considering the work to be done, guess what ! For someone else the price was ok (our loss). We changed tack chose the right boat with the right engine history and well looked after (accepted he cosmetics that needed doing) then paid the price we could afford. Yes we paid a lot more than wanted to, but we got the boat we wanted and then CV struck .... suddenly my overpaid boat became good value. If you want a boat now you will probably have to accept you are going to pay top price, but it’s anyone guess what happens to prices next year.

 

[matt8442]

Morning Nito, I have a 1992 Sunseeker San Remo 35 and have found the boat to be amazing both with performance, running costs and sea keeping. I have gone out with 8 people for the Bournemouth airshow, and fireworks night and found the seating to be adequate, however this does include one person sitting either in the helm seat or the co-pilots seat facing backwards. As you say with 12 people on board it would be crowded and I don't think you would enjoy that. Regards how she is to own, she is running Kad 42's which I find very easy to service there are plenty of spares available. There is also a huge knowledge base on here of people who have written accounts on changing impellors, oil changes, filter changes, and valve adjustments so if you wanted to do the work yourself you could save money and gain experience (I do not know what level of engine experience you have, for all I know you could have wrote the manual on Volvo engines!) Seakeeping is very good, she turns very well and cruises at 22 knots quite comfortably, I don't push her up to 32 knots very often, but she can do that if I wanted to. Running costs have been good, and overall we like her so much that me and my wife instead of trading up have decided to keep the boat for another couple of years and are currently having her undergoing a restoration. A good boat overall and as you already know the classic sunseekers hold there money pretty well.
Anyway that was just my take on owning the San Remo 35, any questions please fire away I know its not the boat your after but I'm happy to help regardless.

 

[Groova]

Hi Nito, I almost bought a Martinique 39 4 years ago but the seller withdrew just prior to completion. Nice boat, smooth Yamaha engines with outdrives. Subsequently been advised that whilst the engines are great (based on Toyota block), the outdrives can be troublesome. Then looked at a Portofino 400 which I felt had a better cockpit. The difference in space was also very evident, so much more volume and physically a bigger, taller boat. Centerline double in master and much better mid cabin. Cat engines on shafts. Regrettably condition prevented taking it further. MBY second hand article by Mr Burnham suggests shafts are much better than outdrives on Portofino 400 as it’s a heavy boat. They appear to be rare on secondhand market.
Bought a Fairline Targa 37 in the end, it’s a bit newer, similar size to Martinique but better cockpit layout and accommodation in my opinion.
90’s Sunseekers look so good, shame that not all have been looked after. Good luck!

 

[petem]

You might have been blessed for not buying that Martinque 39. I would suggest you go to the Vatican four times a year for the next four years and let the Pope bless you well.
D3-220 a 2.4 litre engine on a twelve meter Sunseeker, add to this the not so good reviews of the D3....
Who ever did this did refit or has no idea what he was doing or really wanted to give a lemon to someone.

My thoughts too. At least there will be lots of space around the engines to fix them.

 

[Mr Googler]

Go for a martinique 38. The integrated bathing platform/ stern door makes a load of difference. The lines on the 36 just look old fashion IMHO. Mate has a carmargue 46. Engine access is crap unless you lift the floor which is a 4 man job. Detroit’s are thirsty and super noisy. I did 3 hours on one and it did my head in! It will stomp through anything though.

The 38 still looks modern today and I could easily manage single handed

The 39 just doesn’t look as well proportioned but I’ve never been able to explain why!

 

[LBRodders]

Go for a martinique 38. The integrated bathing platform/ stern door makes a load of difference. The lines on the 36 just look old fashion IMHO. Mate has a carmargue 46. Engine access is crap unless you lift the floor which is a 4 man job. Detroit’s are thirsty and super noisy. I did 3 hours on one and it did my head in! It will stomp through anything though.

The 38 still looks modern today and I could easily manage single handed

The 39 just doesn’t look as well proportioned but I’ve never been able to explain why!
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Why did you sell? ??

 

[Nito]

Thanks for the responses.

@PowerYachtBlog, thanks for the info on the TAMD72’s that’s reassuring to know.

@Meagain, you’ve summed up the situation perfectly. I would say that a lot of the ones we’ve walked away from are still for sale many many months later. We have made offers on two of them and the owners are holding out for what they want which of course is up to them. You’re right about covid tax, brokers simply can’t get enough stock at the moment, and there are a lot of boats that are trying to capitalise on that with a superficial spruce up but with lots of other underlying issues for us.

Surprisingly the dearer 100k + boats seem to be moving much quicker, like the 130k Portofino 35 and a 220k Camargue 50 HT that both under offer within a couple of weeks! I think when we find that perfect boat we would move quickly on it, even if it means paying a bit of a premium because all this searching is doing my head in and all the travelling to view boats last year isn’t cheap either not to mention the time it consumes!

@matt8442, hi, you’ve posted on my threads before, your boat looks beautiful, I really think the SR35 is arguably the best looking of the bunch. I like the easy access on board, it’s a pity for us that it didn’t retain more of the SR33’s seating capacity, like the M38 which managed a good compromise between keeping the M36 seating but with rear door.

I do most of my own work on my motorbikes and my old track cars etc so I’m fairly handy with the spanners and have pretty much all the tools I’d need. Regular servicing, bellows etc is no problem. Good to know the KAD42’s are good units also. They seem a pretty solid bet.

@Groova, we have a Landcruiser Amazon so the Yamaha engines are a tick in the box for us. I have read the drives are really smooth changing gear but can suffer with water ingress and aren’t as reliable as the volvo outdrives. I’m not sure what parts availability/support is like for the Yamaha drives?!

The Portofino 400 is perfect inside. The second cabin is a much better layout than the M39 and the interior looks far more up to date and better finished. The revolving shower door is a big plus because I can’t stand the idea of showering all over the toilet seat like most of the others! It also features the bullet hole air intakes which I’m a big fan of. Where it loses out for us is the upstairs seating, which appears much smaller than the Martiniques but I’m yet to see one of these in the flesh so maybe pics are misleading on that. Is the Portofino 400 also available in outdrives then?

@petem, there really is no love nor salvation for the D3’s lol. It certainly makes me feel better about losing that M39! Yes there was plenty of space in the engine room!

@Mr Googler, that M38 is beautiful. I don’t know why I omitted it above, it most certainly is in contention and as you say, probably the sweet spot in the Martinique range, a better spare cabin arrangement and only loses one seat to the M36 but gains a rear door and integrated platform. It also retains the bullet hole intakes that the M39 sadly loses which might go some way to explaining why you feel it doesn’t look as good, it also has those side strakes which are quite a prominent feature with which it loses some of the classic Sunseeker lines which the Portofino 400 regains somewhat. There seem to be less M38’s about than either of the other two Martiniques. Thanks also for your insight into the Camargue 46’s, I can imagine the drone could get annoying now that you mention it. There is also the dearer Camargue 44 and the beautiful 50 with some great engine options but I’m pretty sure this would end up being too far beyond our means.

Thanks again to all for your responses and advice thus far.

kind regards
Nito

 

[Nito]

Why did you sell? ??

I’d have had his arm off for that, looks in perfect condition and well looked after

 

[Mr Googler]

Why did you sell? ??

Profit ???

 

[Nito]

Profit ???

What did you replace it with, or haven’t you?

 

[Mr Googler]

I’d have had his arm off for that, looks in perfect condition and well looked after

I got it pretty nice ? I enjoy the doing up stuff

 

[Mr Googler]

What did you replace it with, or haven’t you?

Give me a few weeks on that......something completely different....hopefully

 

[LBRodders]

Give me a few weeks on that......something completely different....hopefully

..profit gone! ?

 

[Mr Googler]

..profit gone! ?

Nope ???

 

[matt8442]

Hi Nito, looks like

Thanks for the responses.

@PowerYachtBlog, thanks for the info on the TAMD72’s that’s reassuring to know.

@Meagain, you’ve summed up the situation perfectly. I would say that a lot of the ones we’ve walked away from are still for sale many many months later. We have made offers on two of them and the owners are holding out for what they want which of course is up to them. You’re right about covid tax, brokers simply can’t get enough stock at the moment, and there are a lot of boats that are trying to capitalise on that with a superficial spruce up but with lots of other underlying issues for us.

Surprisingly the dearer 100k + boats seem to be moving much quicker, like the 130k Portofino 35 and a 220k Camargue 50 HT that both under offer within a couple of weeks! I think when we find that perfect boat we would move quickly on it, even if it means paying a bit of a premium because all this searching is doing my head in and all the travelling to view boats last year isn’t cheap either not to mention the time it consumes!

@matt8442, hi, you’ve posted on my threads before, your boat looks beautiful, I really think the SR35 is arguably the best looking of the bunch. I like the easy access on board, it’s a pity for us that it didn’t retain more of the SR33’s seating capacity, like the M38 which managed a good compromise between keeping the M36 seating but with rear door.

I do most of my own work on my motorbikes and my old track cars etc so I’m fairly handy with the spanners and have pretty much all the tools I’d need. Regular servicing, bellows etc is no problem. Good to know the KAD42’s are good units also. They seem a pretty solid bet.

@Groova, we have a Landcruiser Amazon so the Yamaha engines are a tick in the box for us. I have read the drives are really smooth changing gear but can suffer with water ingress and aren’t as reliable as the volvo outdrives. I’m not sure what parts availability/support is like for the Yamaha drives?!

The Portofino 400 is perfect inside. The second cabin is a much better layout than the M39 and the interior looks far more up to date and better finished. The revolving shower door is a big plus because I can’t stand the idea of showering all over the toilet seat like most of the others! It also features the bullet hole air intakes which I’m a big fan of. Where it loses out for us is the upstairs seating, which appears much smaller than the Martiniques but I’m yet to see one of these in the flesh so maybe pics are misleading on that. Is the Portofino 400 also available in outdrives then?

@petem, there really is no love nor salvation for the D3’s lol. It certainly makes me feel better about losing that M39! Yes there was plenty of space in the engine room!

@Mr Googler, that M38 is beautiful. I don’t know why I omitted it above, it most certainly is in contention and as you say, probably the sweet spot in the Martinique range, a better spare cabin arrangement and only loses one seat to the M36 but gains a rear door and integrated platform. It also retains the bullet hole intakes that the M39 sadly loses which might go some way to explaining why you feel it doesn’t look as good, it also has those side strakes which are quite a prominent feature with which it loses some of the classic Sunseeker lines which the Portofino 400 regains somewhat. There seem to be less M38’s about than either of the other two Martiniques. Thanks also for your insight into the Camargue 46’s, I can imagine the drone could get annoying now that you mention it. There is also the dearer Camargue 44 and the beautiful 50 with some great engine options but I’m pretty sure this would end up being too far beyond our means.

Thanks again to all for your responses and advice thus far.

kind regards
Nito

you see Nito, that’s how much I love the boat I just CAN’T stop telling people about it, even those I’ve already told! ? ?