Canaries, advice on lincese and registration please?

[nortada]

Personally, I would ignore the well intended advice of some comments to seek advice from someone who has 'done it' by hiding under the radar, and advise you to find an English speaking lawyer in the locale. Unless Capnsensible can provide links to some legitimate website then I am afraid I will take his words with a pinch of sea salt

It is madness to simply rely on the words of a marina owner, broker, forum member or whoever unless EVERYTHING was well documented and with legal translations and notorisations etc.

Initial forum advice is all good and well, but would you buy a house in the same manner in Spain and not take legal advice? Thought not. The onus is on you at the end of the day to preserve your hard earned money and ensure you do it legally

Just my two cents - and whatever info you find out, we'd still love to hear back from you because it's a plan we intend to do ourselves when funds permit

Please don't take this the wrong way but from your last sentence I gather you have yet to embark on your adventure?

Many who have profered advice here are well into theirs. In some cases this can be measured in a considerable number of years.

Your advice reflects one who anticipates the rest of the world plays by the same set of rules, unfortunately they don't so local advice from those in the same boat (please excuse the pun), who have faced the same or similar issues is invaluable.

Seeking the official position is often impossible because different officials interprete the rules differently, if they exist, in different ways. If no rules exists they make it up as they go. Sometimes the officials are not even aware of the rule you quote and embarrassing the Spanish is not a good idea.

I know of a individual who sought out the rules and strongly advised others to follow suite. Subsequently there was a change of local management and he got hammered by a Catch 22 situation. Others who had kept their heads down were not bothered.

Rob - One last thought, irrespective of your circumstances, I would strive to keep/get a contact address an address in the UK. It is perfectly legal to have addresses in more than one country and it makes life much simpler. The SSR and ICC is are cases in point.

Whatever, everybodies situation is different.

 

[Mee]

There is possibly another way, but it relies on possibly bending the 183 days rule. Depends if you want to play the system I suppose

JOHN SMITH (UK) ASSOCIATES & Co

Reg. Office:
Email:
UK Tax Ref:
Bank Account No.
IBAN:

Hi

I can offer the following info re UK registration as a self-employed trader.

First, look at my letterhead. Main points:
• I am a company – but it does not say Ltd. This gives me extra status in Spain cos the locals think I am Ltd. They never ask but I know what they are thinking.,
• The qualifier (UK) makes it absolutely clear that I am a UK company.
• The word Associates allows me to take on / lay off others, as I wish. This is always done on the basis that my associates are also self-employed, therefore, no employment or tax hassles.
• I trade under my own name, not as a company name for example, so that I have no problems with identification.
• My address in the UK is for real – it is a friend’s, and I am registered there for Tax, Social Security, bank account, driving licence, Lottery, mortgage protection insurance, and every other little thing that I can squeeze in there.
• The tax reference is for real. In the UK, and even Spain, this is not absolutely necessary, but many amateur accountants think that it is necessary. I believe that there is accounting software that actually will not function if the debtor cannot enter the creditor’s Tax Ref.
• This letterhead also serves as the top of all my invoices.

Second, the rules for tax registration. You can, in theory, do this online, but I actually went to my local tax office cos I didn’t want any cock ups, and I was near the end of my 100 day limit for registration. Normally, they will send you your tax ref by post but as I was going abroad, I politely asked them to issue it while I waited as I needed it for my invoices. They agreed and it took about 15 minutes, after which, the tax officer shook my hand and wished me good luck.

I told the taxman that I was living in the UK again, after a spell abroad, and that I wished to run a training consultancy all over the EU from my address in the UK. He didn’t even blink – it seemed to be absolutely OK – and it still is. He asked me no questions about the number of days that I might be here, or there, or anywhere else. The rules, however, state that you must be in the UK for 91 days a year to join the various state schemes. If you are in another country, they have different rules. For example, if you just happened to be in Spain for 183 days, then you would be liable for Spanish tax, social, and health charges. You must, therefore, keep a very nice record of your trips to Germany, Slovakia, Budapest, London, etc. The funny thing is that no government in the EU has an efficient tracking system for the movement of either citizens or visitors inside the EU. The evidence is solely in your hands. If, by misfortune, you were unable to satisfy the Spanish authorities re your days abroad, then any statutory payments which you had made to the UK would be deducted from your perceived Spanish tax liabilities.

Third, the rules for Social Security registration. I tried to do this by telephone cos the internet told me that I could do it. For some reason, the guy at the other end thought that I was trying to join the system as a foreigner with the intention of claiming some benefits. I disabused him of this, but he asked a lot of questions about the number of days I would be here or there, and he wanted fixed dates. I told him that my work was project-based and therefore, flexible. This was a mistake as he was then reluctant to register me, but I asked him directly how he would know where I was, and he admitted that he had no way of knowing. At that point, I assured him that I would spend at least 91 days per year in the UK and he relented. Actually, I haven’t hit that figure in nearly 5 years, but I get no hassle about this.

Fourth, Health Insurance. The good news is that there is none to pay in the UK. These costs are included in the other tax and SS payments.

Fifth, what to do in a foreign country re residency/visitor status - for example, Spain. I am not registered abroad for anything except my joint ownership of our house in Spain. This is a legal necessity but my address as owner is recorded in the Spanish Land Register as living in Manchester. My bank have my permanent address as in the UK, with a local address for statements. As an EU citizen, I am entitled to roam the EU without registering with the local foreign police. This does not apply to US citizens who are very angry about the difference in treatment. As an EU business – properly registered – I am entitled under EU law to do a job in a foreign country within the EU and invoice my client from the UK. I am not entitled to be employed within Spain unless I am fully registered at all of the various offices for state interference.

My accounts show all of my income including fees and bank interest, and I claim against this every possible business expense, eg. Travel, car leasing for 2 cars (1 for me and a pool car for the associates), motor insurance, toll bridges, motorway tolls, mobile, internet, Skype, postage, newspapers, magazines, CD’s, DVD’s, pens, pencils, refills, textbooks, a cleaner for the office (well – I am too busy), cloths, mops, tissues, small items of furniture, parking, laptop, printer, paper, all other computer expenses, hotels, ferries, flights, trains, meals and coffees on the way back to the UK, buses, trams, office expenses like toilet paper, cleaning materials, bulbs, diesel, petrol, car servicing, conferences, legal and accountancy fees, private pension contributions, training for me or the associates, office shelves, cupboards, kettle, microwave, etc., etc., etc. Remember – keep all of your receipts and don’t overdo it or they won’t believe you and you will get a tax audit. But I run my office at a fraction of the cost of a UK office and my accountant encourages me to claim more against tax. I look and I look but I can’t find any other expenses. I do not claim gas, water or electricity for my house in Spain.

 

[nortada]

There is possibly another way, but it relies on possibly bending the 183 days rule. Depends if you want to play the system I suppose

Thank you for sharing this information.

A classic example of detailed research and pre-planning before effectively playing the system. It highlights the fact that it is vitally important how you treat officialdom and that normally officials do not go looking for work - anything for the quiet life!

For me, this example just highlights how every individual's circumstances are unique.

One message that comes across loud and clear is the need to get/keep a footprint (a contact address) in the UK.

Would you continue with an UK EHIC or transfer to a Spanish one? Of course, EHIC only becomes significant if you plan to leave your host country for significant periods. Otherwise you can always take 'holiday insurance' to cover shorter periods.

One element not covered is age.

Within the EU, individual's of pensionable age (65), receive very different treatment to those below pensionable age. This is especially true concerning health and social security issues. In Portugal OAPs travel on concessionary rates on production of proof of age (UK passport or driving license) and this even applies to holiday makers.

Thousand euro question. How much is this all going to change post Brexit?

Word on the streets in Portugal is, not very much. The Portuguese value their visitors, both long and short term to much too kill that money tree. If the EU rules change, from experience, if it is not in Portugal's best interests, they won't inforce the changes. I suspect, at local level, the Spanish attitude will be very similar?

 

[Mee]

Thank you for sharing this information.

No problem.

It's why I also mentioned about registering a boat in Gib, although we never got as far as looking properly into that using the above 'system', as we realised working a few more years in the UK would give us a much bigger money pot for any future move to Spain. Whether or not a 'company address' in Gib would be enough, I could not say

The 183 day rule would be easy to fulfil (hide), by flitting between Gib, Spain and Portugal along with any flights back to the UK that most ex pats will do to visit friends/relatives, albeit not as easy to do in the Canaries, so may not work there as you can't simply nip down to Gib every once in a while and stock up on office supplies to get the required receipts.

And as you noticed, the key to this is to maintain a UK base, even if it is just a friends house - PLUS, and this is the important part, YOU MUST GET DATED RECEIPTS TO SHOW A TRAIL OF WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING. I'm not going to suggest how anyone would do that if they were mostly living in Spain, but a monthly tank of fuel with a receipt from a few petrol stations in the area around your registered UK address would do wonders for your 183 day credibility, I'm sure you can work out how to do that whilst you sun yourself on deck for 300 days a year

 

[Mee]

P.S. When you are submitting your petrol receipts, make sure you don't submit two from the same day in both Malaga and London, it's a dead giveaway

 

[nortada]

P.S. When you are submitting your petrol receipts, make sure you don't submit two from the same day in both Malaga and London, it's a dead giveaway

Ref #42, doesn't John Smith have more than one car?

 

[Mee]

Ref #42, doesn't John Smith have more than one car��

Well spotted

 

[nortada]

Well spotted

I value you opinion to carefully read your words.

 

[Mee]

I value you opinion to carefully read your words.

You know why I mentioned it though. Why rock the boat for the sake of one petrol receipt? Keep it simple, and don't over claim is also the advice given. Your main reason for doing it is not for claiming back one tank of fuel, it's for ensuring you don't go over your 183 days and have evidence to show you were in the UK.

However, saying that, if you were to legitimately own two cars, and get monthly receipts for both (in UK and Spain), might that not make it easier to hide your trail? I think I'd prefer to keep it as simple as possible...

 

[Tranona]

You know why I mentioned it though. Why rock the boat for the sake of one petrol receipt? Keep it simple, and don't over claim is also the advice given. Your main reason for doing it is not for claiming back one tank of fuel, it's for ensuring you don't go over your 183 days and have evidence to show you were in the UK.

However, saying that, if you were to legitimately own two cars, and get monthly receipts for both (in UK and Spain), might that not make it easier to hide your trail? I think I'd prefer to keep it as simple as possible...

You really are making this all too complicated. Keeping a functioning address (ie not just an agency) does have advantages, but it is not the same as being resident. If you intend becoming resident in Spain then you cannot also be resident in the UK just because you have an address. You have to decide which is best for you.

It is true that many people have used the SSR for example while non resident, but recently the eligibility rules have been clarified and more rigorously enforced and many, including some on here have had their renewals refused. This can all however be avoided for UK citizens by registering on Part 1 which is not dependent on residence. You can keep such a boat in Spain either as a resident (assuming you import it) or as a non resident without any restrictions or having a Spanish licence. So, why even consider the hassle of registering in Gib? The solution to that particular problem is easy and works.

The uncertainty is about keeping a boat on the Spanish register, where the "official" position seems to be that you need the appropriate Spanish licence, but practice seems to indicate otherwise in some areas - the Canaries in this case. Once again this can all be avoided by deregistering the boat and reregistering on UK Part 1. Then there are (currently) no restrictions. The only downside is the one off registration and survey fee (about £1000), but it avoids the ongoing cost of maintaining Spanish registration and complying with their survey and safety requirements. No brainer really!

Why go to all the hassle of trying to create an image of being something you are not (collecting petrol receipts and airline tickets and all that guff) when a simple, legal solution exists?

It is worth noting that very little to do with boat ownership and registration (except VAT) is anything to do with the EU and is unlikely to change after we leave. The free movement aspect of VAT may of course change but there are no indications so far as to what such changes might be. There is, however a clear intention that the EHIC system will continue in much the same form, partly because it is not strictly EU, but EEA, and our government intends to keep UK citizens in it, by making direct contributions if necessary.

 

[rich]

I sold my boat to an English man , who lived in ??, he was allowed to keep it on the Jersey register.

 

[Mee]

You really are making this all too complicated. .

I disagree

You can keep such a boat in Spain either as a resident (assuming you import it) or as a non resident without any restrictions or having a Spanish licence..

But you cannot use and keep a UK flagged boat as a Spanish resident, that is FACT

The uncertainty is about keeping a boat on the Spanish register, where the "official" position seems to be that you need the appropriate Spanish licence, but practice seems to indicate otherwise in some areas - the Canaries in this case. .

Why risk it? You know, and I know, that the law clearly says that as a resident in Spain you MUST have a Spanish flagged vessel. You even used the word 'uncertainty' - so you know very well that it's not by the book, and quite likely backhanders are involved - if/when you get found out, do you want to have your boat impounded until you pay a hefty fine?

a simple, legal solution exists?

You point me to a credible source, with the full breakdown explaining the legal solution, and then I will believe you. Until such date, then collecting receipts would seem to be the best option for a lot of people

 

[nortada]

Some excellent posts on this thread with many varying points of view. It brings it home to me there are so many ways to skin this cat.

Having spent nearly 20 years intimately associated with Portugal and to a lesser degree Andalusia (quote Andalusia rather than Spain to emphasis the widely different attitudes across Spain), we have seen huge variation of views within the British community. Beyond the boat we have no interest in Iberia so we have assiduously defended our priveledges as Britons. We keep a very visible presence on the UK, pay UK taxes (including a community charge). We appear on an electoral roll, exercise a postal vote and do not transgressions the 183 day rule.

My quesstion, why would any Brit want Spanish or Portuguese residentia? What are the benefits? Especially once you reach 65 - pension age.

I would add our circle of friends and acquaintances extend way beyond the liveaboard community. Many own property but have not taken residenceia. Some have rushed to take residencia as soon as possible. Is it to give them a sense of belonging? Others vehemently eschew any thought of residencia - why

 

[Mee]

Residency in Spain is linked to tax. So you need at least temporary residency if you plan to live and work there (as I understand it).

I don't have time right now to read this link fully, nor can I see when it was written, but skip reading through it seems to confirm how I at least understood the law when we looked into it

If you are in the country for more than 183 days of a calendar year you are considered to be resident and liable for taxes

http://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-spain-registration-residency

 

[Mee]

Some excellent posts on this thread with many varying points of view. It brings it home to me there are so many ways to skin this cat.

I think what we have proved though, is that there is no 100% legal way for a Brit to actually own a Spanish boat in Spain, and be licenced to sail it unless you take the test in Spanish language.

So now it seems to just be a case of finding the best way to live aboard permanently without getting caught breaking the precious 183 day rule until such time the OP (or anyone else for that matter) can speak Spanish

 

[Tranona]

I disagree


But you cannot use and keep a UK flagged boat as a Spanish resident, that is FACT


Why risk it? You know, and I know, that the law clearly says that as a resident in Spain you MUST have a Spanish flagged vessel. You even used the word 'uncertainty' - so you know very well that it's not by the book, and quite likely backhanders are involved - if/when you get found out, do you want to have your boat impounded until you pay a hefty fine?

You point me to a credible source, with the full breakdown explaining the legal solution, and then I will believe you. Until such date, then collecting receipts would seem to be the best option for a lot of people

You are making it too complicated. Hundreds, probably thousands of British people keep boats in Spain either as resident or non resident without any problems.

Yes, you can keep a British registered boat even as a resident. Suggest you read the RYA advice on the subject, which is based on advice from a Spanish lawyer (which I know you value so much). You need to be a member to access. The clear advice is that if you use your boat in both Spain and other countries you do not have to put it on the Spanish register. So, your "CLEAR" is not as clear as you think. There is more background to this in the RYA paper. Of course you may have to collect evidence that you do this in the unlikely event of ever being asked to prove it. Incidentally the RYA advice also warns that Spanish laws are variably enforced both in different parts of Spain and at different times - just as many of us here are telling you. So there is always some uncertainty no matter how carefully you have prepared yourself.

If you seriously think that having your boat impounded is a possibility, find some examples and investigate them thoroughly as there is invariably a specific back story that may be very different from what you imagine. "Ordinary" people with simple lives generally don't get their boats impounded.

Still don't understand why you need to keep evidence as to your movements. Residence in Spain is a fact. Once you get it you don't have to prove your movements. If you remain UK resident (ie do not register in Spain) you may want to keep some evidence that you do indeed spend 183 days here, but in general there is very little need to do so as in a sense it is the default position of having been here for a long time, have a permanent address, pay your taxes etc.

 

[Mee]

Still don't understand why you need to keep evidence as to your movements. Residence in Spain is a fact. Once you get it you don't have to prove your movements. If you remain UK resident (ie do not register in Spain) you may want to keep some evidence that you do indeed spend 183 days here, but in general there is very little need to do so as in a sense it is the default position of having been here for a long time, have a permanent address, pay your taxes etc.

Then you have completely missed the point.

 

[Heckler]

I disagree


But you cannot use and keep a UK flagged boat as a Spanish resident, that is FACT


Why risk it? You know, and I know, that the law clearly says that as a resident in Spain you MUST have a Spanish flagged vessel. You even used the word 'uncertainty' - so you know very well that it's not by the book, and quite likely backhanders are involved - if/when you get found out, do you want to have your boat impounded until you pay a hefty fine?

You point me to a credible source, with the full breakdown explaining the legal solution, and then I will believe you. Until such date, then collecting receipts would seem to be the best option for a lot of people

I have posted several times about this, about 18 months ago, my Spanish neighbours in Albufeira marina suddenly started flying Belgian flags and sported new words on the back of their boats, Port of registry Antwerp.
We then noticed that there were a lot of new Belgian flags in Culatra and the Algarve in general. When we asked what was going on the reply was "luxury taxes" The Spaniards were bringing their boats to Portugal and reflagging them to Belgian registry to dodge the luxury tax. They also mentioned the liferaft thing, Spain registry allegedly requires yearly testing, the Portuguese tester that did mine said Uk register, test certificate good for three years
Stu

 

[nortada]

Well Rob, I think you have had all the advice available.

I am sure we will all be interested to hear what you decide and how you get on.

Best of luck with your adventure. ?

 

[Mee]

Well Rob, I think you have had all the advice available.

I am sure we will all be interested to hear what you decide and how you get on.

Best of luck with your adventure. ��

I think we'd all like to know - we've probably put him off his dream of life in the sun, forever