Canaries, advice on lincese and registration please?

[Tranona]

Nobody answered this with any clarity

Suspect that is because it is not a valid question as there is an assumption that a boat is for using as a boat and has a skipper who, if local regulations require it, will need to have the relevant qualification.

You could, of course argue the toss with the Spanish local officials but don't fancy your chances!

 

[Mee]

Suspect that is because it is not a valid question as there is an assumption that a boat is for using as a boat and has a skipper who, if local regulations require it, will need to have the relevant qualification.

You could, of course argue the toss with the Spanish local officials but don't fancy your chances!

An owner does not have to be the skipper. Nor does anyone who lives on board. So there is still no clarity on the original question about this

 

[Tranona]

An owner does not have to be the skipper. Nor does anyone who lives on board. So there is still no clarity on the original question about this

If you are looking for clarity on this subject then I think you will be disappointed. You may well find there is no underpinning law supporting what seems to be the practice and very much is left to local interpretation. Spain is well known for the devolution of power to local officials, hence the importance (as in this case) of finding out from trusted sources what is acceptable in the port where you are based. Exactly the same in Greece if you read the extensive threads on the new regulations that may, or may not, be in place. A general observation that such inconsistency is common in southern European states.

 

[Mee]

Suspect. Assumption. May well. Seems to be. May, or may not be. Signed off with General observation.

I'm not having a go at you. We looked into this several months back, and whilst we would still like to do it, financially it is not an option for us just yet. What I am getting at, is that as Spanish laws do tend to differ from region to region, the best course of action would seem to be to rely on a Spanish lawyer rather than vague answers on a forum.

 

[nortada]

If you are looking for clarity on this subject then I think you will be disappointed. You may well find there is no underpinning law supporting what seems to be the practice and very much is left to local interpretation. Spain is well known for the devolution of power to local officials, hence the importance (as in this case) of finding out from trusted sources what is acceptable in the port where you are based. Exactly the same in Greece if you read the extensive threads on the new regulations that may, or may not, be in place. A general observation that such inconsistency is common in southern European states.

A realistic response.

It was explained to me that the law in both Spain and Portugal is a legacy of Napoleonic rule, when there was an explosion in new laws. The result is local law enforcers impose some laws but ignore others and the emphasis can regularly change.

The EU has inherited this 'law for every occasion' concept. This can result in conflicting laws and confusion.

This totally at odds with the concept of British law.

The so.ution, take local advise from those in a similar situation to yourself and keep your head down.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The so.ution, take local advise from those in a similar situation to yourself and keep your head down.

That's all very good but where have they got there info from .
Best bet if you want to be 90% sure are there no 100% is go N to the local police or what every dept deal with it and ask some one in the know how , if poss get something in writing ,
NOT the local pod .
Other wise your just guessing

 

[capnsensible]

Nobody answered this with any clarity

I did.

 

[Tranona]

Suspect. Assumption. May well. Seems to be. May, or may not be. Signed off with General observation.

I'm not having a go at you. We looked into this several months back, and whilst we would still like to do it, financially it is not an option for us just yet. What I am getting at, is that as Spanish laws do tend to differ from region to region, the best course of action would seem to be to rely on a Spanish lawyer rather than vague answers on a forum.

You may well get a similar answer from a Spanish lawyer! For exactly the same reason, although you may well have more confidence in their lack of clarity than the forum's.

Gets back to nordata's observation. It is the Napoleonic code (or Roman) approach to law which is based on the principle of law telling you what you can do, rather than Common Law which essentially tells you what you can't.

The difficulty with the former is that it does not always cover every situation and is slow to respond to changes. So many laws are both out of date or ignored, or local practice chooses which to apply. You only have to look at the Brexit negotiations to understand the difference in approach.

 

[nortada]

That's all very good but where have they got there info from .
Best bet if you want to be 90% sure are there no 100% is go N to the local police or what every dept deal with it and ask some one in the know how , if poss get something in writing ,
NOT the local pod .
Other wise your just guessing

They have personal experience which trumps all advice.

As to taking advice from any of the authorities, often they are as much in the dark as you and make it up as they go along (T2L in early days case in point).

Trouble is once they have made their mind up IT BECOMES THEIR GUIDANCE which will be applied to you!

Hence, head down and let others take the lead.

 

[nortada]

Gets back to nordata's observation. It is the Napoleonic code (or Roman) approach to law which is based on the principle of law telling you what you can do, rather than Common Law which essentially tells you what you can't.

Absolutely - very well put?

 

[Mee]

Thank you for your email and the interest in our Company.

We will be delighted to help you with the purchase of a property in Granada or any other areas in Spain.

Please find attached our presentation letter. If you agree then we kindly ask you to complete the attached forms and return them to us with a copy of your passports, and a copy of your NIE, (if you have one).
In order to work in your behalf, we will need a power of attorney in our favour. The easiest option is, if you are coming soon would be to have a have a meeting and prepare a power of or if not, you can sign a power of attorney in the UK at your local notary/lawyer or the Spanish Embassy.

Our fees to assist you in the purchase, are 1% of the property price, plus VAT 21%.

Other services are: asking for connecting the utilities, signing the contract and set up direct debits (water, electricity and in some cases internet/telephone). 150 euros plus VAT.

Preparing a bilingual testament.

Each Will cost 265 euros including VAT (21%) and notary fees. We write up the Wills in double columns in English/Spanish and send them to you for approval by e-mail. We then make the appointment at the Notary office and accompany you to the signing, collect the copies after a few days, and will keep the copies in the office until you come to collect them or we can send them to you, whichever you prefer.

Our charges are fully inclusive of: all professional time and attendances; applicable taxes and disbursements; all dealings with our local Notary and the professional translation referred to above. You won't have to pay any additional sum or fee.

Our service includes registration of the will at the Central Wills Registry in Madrid and also secure lifetime storage of the original will in the Notary’s document storage facility.

Regarding the inscription of a boat in Spain we work with different administrators in different areas. The expenses depend on the nationality of the boat, type…, same for the car.

Regarding the registration of the car is the same than the boat. If you bring the car from the UK make sure you have a VAT invoice for the purchase and all original documentation.

If you became resident later on we will assist you in filing the petition to the police our fees are 150 euros plus VAT per person.

Regarding the purchase of the property, there will be other expenses like, taxes, notary fees and land registry fees on the property and if you apply for a mortgage on the mortgage deeds. The expenses are around 12-15% of the purchase price.

Do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions..

Thats what we received from a Spanish lawyer several months back (Velasco Lawyers in Granada) - which although doesn't answer the OP's questions, it may be of interest to him, even if it is in mainland Spain and so may not apply directly to him in the Canaries.

 

[Tranona]

Thats what we received from a Spanish lawyer several months back (Velasco Lawyers in Granada) - which although doesn't answer the OP's questions, it may be of interest to him, even if it is in mainland Spain and so may not apply directly to him in the Canaries.

With respect that is referring to bringing a boat into Spain when you take up residence, which has its own procedures and potential taxes. That is relatively straightforward as the Spanish Government has established a strict procedure following their spat with the EU commission on the subject.

The OP is looking at buying a boat that is already in Spain and on the Spanish register, which is very different and where the lack of clarity exists (unlike importing a boat when taking up residence).

 

[Mee]

With respect that is referring to bringing a boat into Spain when you take up residence.

So what difference does it make if the boat is already registered in Spain? Or if it is one that is from the UK and then registered in Spain? The lawyer clearly states:

If you became resident later on we will assist you in filing the petition to the police our fees are 150 euros plus VAT per person.

From what you are saying, nobody would ever buy a boat in Spain

 

[Mee]

Boat Legal

by Maria Teresa Velasco | Sep 2, 2009 | Motor and Marine Law

When buying a boat in Spain it is always best to leave the process in the capable hands of a lawyer or an expert in the matter because the legal and fiscal systems are complicated, especially when compared to other countries. For example in the UK the registering process is extremely simple.

Currently frequent checks are being carried out on boats moored in Spanish ports flying Spanish ensigns. If the owner has a Spanish residence permit then the general rule is that the boat used in Spain should be registered under the Spanish flag. If the owner has not applied for residency but spends more than 183 days during the calendar year in Spain, he is equally regarded as a resident. Although initially it may seem difficult to establish the number of days that the boat is on Spanish territory, in reality it is not, as the Civil Guard control the entry into Spanish ports.
What taxes need to be paid by the owner of the boat?

When the buyer is not a company but buys the boat from a Spanish Company then the registration tax is 12% and VAT is 16%. When the buyer is a company and buys a new boat from a company domiciled within the Schengen territory other than Spain, the registration tax is 12% and there is no VAT paid in Spain. When the buyer is a company from the European Community and buys either a new or second hand boat from a company domiciled in Spain, and the boat is exported to another European Community country then there is no registration tax and no VAT to be paid in Spain. When the buyer is not from a European Community country and buys a boat to export to a non European Country, then there is no registration tax or VAT to be paid in Spain.
The tax of 4% of the price of second hand boats which are already registered in Spain, is paid to the regional tax office; for example in Andalucía it is paid to the Junta de Andalucía. It should be kept in mind that there are Government regulations for valuations and therefore to avoid complications later on, it is best to be guided by the published tables.
The buyer has to pay the 4% tax which is paid by completing the form called ‘Modelo 620’ within 30 days after the purchase and presenting it at the bank. If the purchase is subject to VAT then this tax is exempt, but the corresponding form has to be presented.
The person who is registering the boat must have a NIE number whether he is a resident or not. The inscription of pleasure craft is registered in the 7th List of the Ship Registry, and the navigation permit has to include the characteristics of the boat with features such as: what it is made of, length, propulsion, engine and fuel, as well as the name of the boat and the identification data, plus the owner’s ID and the navigational qualifications that he has.
The following documentation has to be attached to the application for registration with the Harbour Master:

Certificate from the boat yard confirming the description of the vessel.
Certificate from the manufacturer confirming engine description.
Owner’s manuals for the boat and the engine with Spanish translation.
Sales purchase deeds, private contract or invoice.
Official safety certificate for the life rafts.
Proof of payment for the fees for maritime signals.
In case of imported craft, customs clearance and registration certificate from the country of origin.
Documentation showing payment of taxes, exemption or where taxes are not payable.
Copy of the payment for inscription fee in the ships registry.

If the boat has been previously registered in Spain, it is essential to request the information from both the Ships Registry and the Movable Property Registry (which is part of the Commercial Registry); to find out whether there are any charges or encumbrances on the boat.
Where boats which were previously registered in Spain are exported to the UK, it is important to keep all the documents showing the owner of the boat, that the VAT has been paid and the invoice for the sale. It is also important to de-register the boat both at the Ship’s Registry and the Movable Property Registry.

http://www.velascolawyers.com/en/motor-and-marine-law/67-boat-legal.html

 

[Tranona]

Still does not answer the question as to whether the skipper needs a Spanish licence, or whether an ICC is acceptable. The latter seems to be the case in the canaries according to capnsensibles source. However for a long time it was definitely not the case in other parts of Spain making owning a boat for non nationals who were resident very difficult.

However, under the new rules if new residents import their boat when they become resident there is no need to put it on the Spanish register, nor to have a Spanish licence. Does create other difficulties though because in theory the owner is no longer eligible for the SSR so the boat should be on Part 1.

Of course non residents can keep a British registered boat indefinitely in Spain with no restrictions (currently at least).

So when trying to determine what you can and cannot do does depend on knowing the exact circumstances, but recognising that there are still grey areas.

 

[Mee]

I found this

Although a Yacht Masters certificate (and translation into Spanish) or an ICC (International Certificate of Competence) are considered sufficient proof of competence to skipper a UK (or some other) flagged vessel, the ICC is not a recognised qualification for Spanish flagged vessels. Anyone resident in Spain must have a Spanish recognised qualification, the título de recreo.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/spain/costa-blanca/lifestyle/sports-leisure/sailing-and-boating

 

[Mee]

Is there any advantage to forming a company in Gibraltar?

http://www.formacogibraltar.com/gibraltar_yacht_registration.html

Yacht Registration Package

Advantages and Procedures For The Registration Of A Yacht In Gibraltar

Advantages

Gibraltar's situation at the gateway to the Mediterranean, its British Flag Registry and the facilities provided by all three of its marinas means that it is ideally placed to service all registration, mooring, repair and maintenance needs associated with the yachting world.
All vessels registered in Gibraltar are registered as British flag vessels with documentation being identical to the UK requirements and are required to fly the Red Ensign.
Gibraltar's status within the EU is that it is a full EU member except that it is exempted from levying VAT as it does not form part of the EU's Common Customs Tariff area. For this reason, it is important to differentiate between countries falling within the EU's CCT area and other EU territories such as Gibraltar. For the reasons described above, if you register your yacht in Gibraltar you pay:
• No VAT in Gibraltar
• No Import Duty (if your vessel is not based in Gibraltar)
• No tax on the sale of your vessel
Under the laws applicable to yachts registered in Gibraltar in the name of limited companies it is:
• Not necessary for shareholders or company directors to be nationals or residents of Gibraltar
• Not necessary for the vessel to be surveyed annually
• Not necessary for the skipper to hold any form of mariner's certificate in the case of pleasure yachts under 80 GRT.

Entitlement

The persons entitled to be owners of British Flag vessels are:
• British nationals
• Citizens of the European Union
• Companies incorporated in jurisdictions which are subject to UK laws, and have principal places of business in these locations.
Non-British nationals can make use of Gibraltar companies to own their vessels. The vessels can then be registered in the names of their Gibraltar companies, with the owners or their nominees holding all the shares in the Company.
All vessels registered in Gibraltar be they in the name of Gibraltar companies or EU citizens, are required to appoint Registered Agents in Gibraltar who are entrusted with the annual renewal of the registration of the vessels for and on behalf of the Beneficial Owners of the vessels.

VAT (Value Added Tax)

VAT is normally charged on yachts which are used within Common Customs Tariff waters, regardless of whether the yacht is owned by a Gibraltar company. For this reason it is important to note that whether a yacht is registered in Gibraltar or any other British Flag port, it is also subject to the conditions imposed by other countries as to the length of time that it may remain in any port without becoming subject to Import Duty as a foreign registered vessel.
Although VAT-free temporary importation status is still available to yachts which do not spend more that six months in any year in CCT waters, this is conditional upon the yacht not being used by any EU residents during its time in CCT waters.
If a vessel which is seeking a transfer of its Port of Registry from a country within the Common Customs Tariff area to Gibraltar, has already paid VAT on its purchase value, it would be important to show that the "resale" of the vessel to the name of a Gibraltar company is effected within the CCT area in order to preserve its VAT-paid status.
EU citizens seeking to re-register their vessels in Gibraltar in the name of Gibraltar companies should note that any VAT levied by CCT member countries on their vessels would be conditional upon their status as EU citizens and not on their vessel's Port of Registry. For this reason it would certainly be a bonus if those EU citizens seeking to re-register their vessels in Gibraltar and continue to use their vessels within CCT waters, have already paid VAT on their vessels.

Procedures

If the vessel to be registered in new, and has never been registered elsewhere previously, then we would need to be furnished with a Builder's Certificate which should carry the seal or rubber stamp of the Builder(s) and should indicate for whom the vessel was built.
If the vessel is not a new vessel and is currently registered in a Non-British Flag port, then we need to be furnished with a Bill of Sale which indicates the sale of the vessel to the Gibraltar company, and which needs to be authenticated by a Consul or Notary Public who can bear witness to the nationality of the Vendor.
If the vessel is currently sailing under the British Flag, then an ordinary Bill of Sale without any form of certification will suffice.
If the vessel has been purchased from a British subject (or corporation), and it has not be registered previously, then we would require the applicant to provide us with a sequence of Bills of Sales from the initial owner to date.
Every vessel seeking registration in Gibraltar (except for those meeting the criteria described in point f below) is required to produce a Measurement and Tonnage Survey Certificate which should be carried out by representatives of any of the following recognised syndicates:
• Bureau Veritas
• Lloyds of London
• Germanischer Lloyd
• American Bureau of Shipping
• Norske Veritas
• RINA
• The Royal Yachting Association
• Yacht Brokers Designers & Surveyors Association.
If a vessel seeking re-registration in Gibraltar can produce certified documentation pertaining to any EU port authority confirming that the vessel is up-to-date in its compliance with their registration requirements, and assuming that this documentation meets with the approval of the Gibraltar Yacht Registry, then the requirements to have a Measurement & Tonnage Survey carried out on the vessel can be simplified via the homologation of the information appearing on these documents to meet British standards.

Cost Of Registering A Yacht In Gibraltar
FORM-A-CO (GIBRALTAR) LIMITED's costs for the services of registering a vessel in Gibraltar (inclusive of all Registry fees, but exclusive of the provision of a Gibraltar company) are as follows:

GBP £ 850 - exclusive of a Measurement and Tonnage Survey

The costs listed above refer exclusively to FORM-A-CO (GIBRALTAR) LIMITED's "YACHT REGISTRATION PACKAGE" and assume that no additional services such as the provision of Nominee facilities etc., would be required of us. Should it be anticipated that such services may be necessary, please refer to our Introductory Fees List appearing on this Website in order to determine the relevant costs.

Yacht Insurance
FORM-A-CO (GIBRALTAR) LIMITED will be pleased to assist with placing insurance for yachts at competitive rates through major insurance companies.

All costs appearing in this package are subject to review on a periodic basis and FORM-A-CO (GIBRALTAR) LIMITED reserves the right to amend fees
for this service without prior notice.

 

[RobWales]

Thanks guys, even more confused now!

Flying out tomorrow, will seek advice and report back.....cheers.

 

[Mee]

Thanks guys, even more confused now!

Flying out tomorrow, will seek advice and report back.....cheers.

Personally, I would ignore the well intended advice of some comments to seek advice from someone who has 'done it' by hiding under the radar, and advise you to find an English speaking lawyer in the locale. Unless Capnsensible can provide links to some legitimate website then I am afraid I will take his words with a pinch of sea salt

It is madness to simply rely on the words of a marina owner, broker, forum member or whoever unless EVERYTHING was well documented and with legal translations and notorisations etc.

Initial forum advice is all good and well, but would you buy a house in the same manner in Spain and not take legal advice? Thought not. The onus is on you at the end of the day to preserve your hard earned money and ensure you do it legally

Just my two cents - and whatever info you find out, we'd still love to hear back from you because it's a plan we intend to do ourselves when funds permit

 

[Tranona]

I found this

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/spain/costa-blanca/lifestyle/sports-leisure/sailing-and-boating

That is what I believed to be the case, as I said earlier, but capnsensible is very well connected and I can quite believe that the officials in the Canaries either choose to ignore it or, like other rules in that territory, the local rule is different from mainland Spain.

It has always been frustrating dealing with matters in Spain for all the reasons given earlier. Your advice to use a lawyer is sound - they are very good at exploiting the ambiguities - for their own benefit!

No point in owning your boat through a Gib company as Gibraltar is outside the EU and if, as a resident, you want to use it in Spain you will have to import it. If you are non EU resident then you can use it in the EU under the temporary importation rules with all the constraints that implies.