fireball
New member
It was evident ...
Anyway - what's with the "New Bavaria Yacht Forum" ?? Whats wrong with the BOA's one ?
Anyway - what's with the "New Bavaria Yacht Forum" ?? Whats wrong with the BOA's one ?
Who should be blamed in this collision???
- Thread starter Leonidas
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nigelmercier
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- Live in Kent, boat in Canary Islands
Apart from the £15 to join, and the fact that as a result there are only a few posts a day? Nothing I guess
fireball
New member
Apart from the £15 to join, and the fact that as a result there are only a few posts a day? Nothing I guess
Fair enough ...
dancrane
Well-known member
Fireball, I think you misconstrued my meaning. My fault, maybe - I apologise, if so...
In repect of it being 'good luck', I meant it was just chance, that the impact didn't sink the yacht, and cost lives. Mightn't we very easily be discussing a tragedy here? The rarity of such incidents shows that most racers aren't without a grain of sense.
Quote (Fireball): Are you suggesting that anyone racing is a halfwit?
I'd say any skipper that would risk everything for line honours, is halfwitted. Wouldn't you? Good grief, you're not one of them, are you? And, those that flush away their normal courtesy and knowledge of Colregs "because it's a race"...to my mind, they're much worse than halfwits.
But, I recognise it's wholly possible to sail scrupulously and safely, and still be competitive. That's why the creatures that wilfully push their yachts and crews towards conspicuously hazardous situations like this one, need kicking.
In repect of it being 'good luck', I meant it was just chance, that the impact didn't sink the yacht, and cost lives. Mightn't we very easily be discussing a tragedy here? The rarity of such incidents shows that most racers aren't without a grain of sense.
Quote (Fireball): Are you suggesting that anyone racing is a halfwit?
I'd say any skipper that would risk everything for line honours, is halfwitted. Wouldn't you? Good grief, you're not one of them, are you?
And, those that flush away their normal courtesy and knowledge of Colregs "because it's a race"...to my mind, they're much worse than halfwits.But, I recognise it's wholly possible to sail scrupulously and safely, and still be competitive. That's why the creatures that wilfully push their yachts and crews towards conspicuously hazardous situations like this one, need kicking.
ffiill
Active member
Personally the idiot who sails his boat across the bow of an oil tanker is the same sort of idiot who pulls out onto the main road in front of a fully loaded lorry! or a car towing a fully loaded trailer-brain dead comes to mind! as does lucky to be alive!
dancrane
Well-known member
Amen, Ffiill! Exactly the parallel I was thinking of. I was wrong to call the risk-takers halfwits...they're quarterwitted!
Every day, some dumbwad runs across the road, brushing the fender of a responsibly-driven vehicle that couldn't concievably have changed course to avoid the pedestrian. If, instead, the pedestrian is flattened, it still isn't the driver's fault.
I've dinghy-sailed across the Solent many times, and developed a healthy respect for the big stuff. Nothing, nothing would have set me on a course to cross the bows of the Hanne Knutsen like that.
Fireball implied earlier, that we can't know more than was visible on film; and I infer that he meant, we oughtn't to presume why this yacht was there...but...under spinnaker, and apparently still in the race, isn't it fair to guess she was steered into that position by a fiercely competitive skipper with a penchant for Russian roulette?
Like I said, halfwits.
Every day, some dumbwad runs across the road, brushing the fender of a responsibly-driven vehicle that couldn't concievably have changed course to avoid the pedestrian. If, instead, the pedestrian is flattened, it still isn't the driver's fault.
I've dinghy-sailed across the Solent many times, and developed a healthy respect for the big stuff. Nothing, nothing would have set me on a course to cross the bows of the Hanne Knutsen like that.
Fireball implied earlier, that we can't know more than was visible on film; and I infer that he meant, we oughtn't to presume why this yacht was there...but...under spinnaker, and apparently still in the race, isn't it fair to guess she was steered into that position by a fiercely competitive skipper with a penchant for Russian roulette?
Like I said, halfwits.
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Cookee
New member
There's a chap called "Anchor handler" on Boatmad.com and he has started putting up examples of poor judgement of yachts (no MOBOS yet) that also show very poor judgement skills and a total lack of understanding when it comes to who has right of way - none are racers by the way (so far)!
nigelmercier
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- Live in Kent, boat in Canary Islands
Can someone send a link to this "other thread" please.
VicS
Well-known member
There were several "other threads" but the main one was http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282935
flaming
Well-known member
yes. But again, we have absolutely no evidence that this was what happened.
My own theory, for what it's worth, is that he simply hadn't seen it until the patrol boat brought his attention to it, at which point he bears away hard, but then loses control and broaches straight back into the path of the ship, possibly losing a man over the side in the broach. On one of the films shot from a rib, he appears to be broaching as he enters the shot.
Inexcusable that they hadn't seen it, but NOT risking it all for the race.
fireball
New member
Ok - (iirc) I read it that you considered it lucky that there weren't more incidents in general - which is IMHO nothing to do with luck and all to do with spacial awareness and ability to control their vessels ..
I have risked quite a bit for line honours - in a dinghy - usually with the kite up - either just skimming a mudbank or sailing close to another competitor and preventing them from passing - even contributed towards a capsize at one time - they wouldn't have capsized if they weren't pushing to get past with their kite up too ... so not my fault ... but I didn't get out of their way - but that's racing!Quote (Fireball): Are you suggesting that anyone racing is a halfwit?
I'd say any skipper that would risk everything for line honours, is halfwitted. Wouldn't you? Good grief, you're not one of them, are you?
I'm sure I've never risked life to get to the finish line ... limb? Probably !
Yes - this particular one ... "I didn't see it guv" wouldn't be an excuse in my book ... especially when racing - because - if you didn't see a fking great orange ship then you probably haven't seen hundreds of racers who you're also giveway too ...
A racer who isn't aware of what is going on outside his vessel is dangerous to all those around.
JohnDWillimann
New member
First rule of COLREGS, avoid collision at any cost!
The ship will have been restricted by his ability to manoeuvre, limited by draught, (also he might not have seen him) etc. so to my mind it is pretty clear that the racing skipper cut it just too fine, to try and win a race.
Well, he didn't win that one on any score...
The ship will have been restricted by his ability to manoeuvre, limited by draught, (also he might not have seen him) etc. so to my mind it is pretty clear that the racing skipper cut it just too fine, to try and win a race.
Well, he didn't win that one on any score...
Scotty_Tradewind
Active member
Hypothetically.....If the yacht skipper had seen the ship, say a good few minutes before the collision and made the decision to cross the ships bow, would it have been prudent to have had the engine running ready to engage if things were too tight?
dancrane
Well-known member
I'm glad we broadly agree, Fireball. I've had some dinghy-disasters myself (destructive but not injurious), but I'd say they're on a different scale to the yacht/tanker scene. Plus, ramming a sandbank or a cardinal mark may be very unpleasant, but at least the collision is with something inert, notwithstanding the tide - it's not ploughing along unstoppably, and with a position made intrinsically harder to judge thereby.
For the record, the Hanne Knutsen (British registered, I think) is nearly 800' long, and a massive 130' wide, weighs 124,000 tons and doesn't go much over 12 knots. I don't think she could ever be accused of sneaking up on the racers! Nor is her steering likely to be particularly sudden or surprising.
If she's within five miles on a clear day, any responsible skipper will know it and steer well clear. This fellow made a horrible hash of it. On the bright side, he'll never live that daftness down, and he's given us all an important reminder.
For the record, the Hanne Knutsen (British registered, I think) is nearly 800' long, and a massive 130' wide, weighs 124,000 tons and doesn't go much over 12 knots. I don't think she could ever be accused of sneaking up on the racers! Nor is her steering likely to be particularly sudden or surprising.
If she's within five miles on a clear day, any responsible skipper will know it and steer well clear. This fellow made a horrible hash of it. On the bright side, he'll never live that daftness down, and he's given us all an important reminder.
Fire99
Well-known member
Blame Blame Blame, We're always looking for someone to blame...
dancrane
Well-known member
I hope that's meant to be funny, Fire99?
Blame only comes after a mistake or culpable misjudgement, in terms of standards that were set up to prevent injury, loss and unhappiness, which are duly caused by mistakes. If you disagree with blaming, maybe you don't approve of preventative laws/rules/guidance either? Or the benefits of learning and practicing responsibility?
Or are you just stuck forever in the summer of '67?
Blame only comes after a mistake or culpable misjudgement, in terms of standards that were set up to prevent injury, loss and unhappiness, which are duly caused by mistakes. If you disagree with blaming, maybe you don't approve of preventative laws/rules/guidance either? Or the benefits of learning and practicing responsibility?
Or are you just stuck forever in the summer of '67?
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Fire99
Well-known member
If you disagree with blaming, maybe you don't approve of preventative laws/rules/guidance either? Or the benefits of learning and practicing responsibility?
Or are you just stuck forever in the summer of '67?
Only a sense of balance in situations...
(Will need a history book for '67
)
Poignard
Well-known member
The will of Allah.
God used to be handy for that but now most of us don't believe, so we have to find a substitute (or even as a desperate last resort - blame ourselves)
God used to be handy for that but now most of us don't believe, so we have to find a substitute (or even as a desperate last resort - blame ourselves)
Fire99
Well-known member
Well one may say it may be of benefit for us to more often look at ourselves before going for the 'strike' at others..
dancrane
Well-known member
Okay, I'm hazy about 1967 myself, but I understand that all over the world, crowds of drugged-up hippies expressed undiscerning love for "everyone", and declined to recognise all manner of brutal facts of existence. Happy thoughts, but no great help in the real world!
But, I'm all in favour of our collectively benefiting from seeing how close a conscious racing crew came to total wipe-out.
But, I'm all in favour of our collectively benefiting from seeing how close a conscious racing crew came to total wipe-out.
