Motoring yachts & sailing dinghies

[ianc1200]

At heart I'm a motorboater, and having boated most of my life on the upper Thames, we learnt to slow down and go behind sailing dinghies, and if it was likely they were about to tack wait for them a second time. Sometimes there would be so many dinghies coming in all directions it was much more difficult but you tried to go behind where possible. Now owning a sailing boat and a racing dinghy, sailing in races from Walton & Frinton Yacht Club I've noticed where yachts are motoring, faced with a dinghy coming across their bows, they will try and outrun the dinghy. This happened again in the Walton Channel on Sunday. Typically I was second last, nearing the end of the race and no other dinghy within 50 yards. A 25' yacht, under power decided he would speed up and pass in front of me, also slightly veering his course away. I can't say the tide - close to HW and with him - or depth of water - had any bearing on this, yet it does seem the reaction of motoring yachtsman to put the foot down when faced with a possible collision, rather than slow down. I could have struck him amidship but tacked, but why do motoring yachties do this?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

No idea. But having kept my yacht in Chichester for some time, I found that attempting to navigate under power through the thousands of dinghies racing on courses set across the channel was a major trial. Not a single toss was given. Eventually I found that taking all power off so I was under way but not making way turned me into a static obstacle that they needed to avoid. Slow but safe.

Foiling Moths the worst.

 

[ianc1200]

under power through the thousands of dinghies

but not another dinghy within 50 yards in this case....

 

[johnalison]

I think that you will find inexperienced folk with poor judgement in many fields, with rather fewer perhaps people who will selfishly claim entitlement. Newcomers to sailing often feel insecure when going slowly, and so the natural instinct is to speed up, but, as you imply, this is often combined with an attitude problem.

On the other hand, I think that a cruising yacht has some sort of right of passage, and in a river or narrow channel the presence of a racing fleet can impede this. I don’t think I have had any bad-tempered encounters in the Walton Channel but we often had to thread our way through racing fleets in the Blackwater when we sailed there, with fleets of many scores or even hundreds at times. My general policy was to let the leaders of the fleet go by but then be prepared to make my way through the middle or tail of the fleet. The only boat that shouted at me in many years was a catamaran that crossed my path at high speed, suddenly appearing from nowhere and supposing that a 5-ton boat could just jump out of his way. This is part of my general feeling, that any boat, sail or power, that is going significantly faster than other craft has an obligation to keep clear, whatever the collision rules say at that point.

 

[MikeBz]

I partake in both camps. When not racing I do my best to not impede those who are, and when racing I try to make my intentions clear, cooperate and give a cheery wave to those who are not racing especially if they also cooperate. On the other hand I have encountered those who only race and believe every other craft should dematerialise out of their way, and those who don’t race who are doggedly and deliberately obstructive to racing boats just to “prove” a pointless point.

I cruise a lot more than I race these days but I don’t think that gives me any sort of right of passage - that seems alien to me.

At the end of the day we are all sharing a resource for slightly different purposes, and our pleasure and benefit is much greater if we all have some understanding and respect for each other.

 

[tillergirl]

In my first year of sailing on the Blackwater we were running up the Blackwater with the flood tide in full spate, a whooping big main (well it felt whooping big at the time) on the edge of a gybe when encountered probably 3 or 4 races off Stone. We tried to avoid everybody and gradually got squeezed close to the moorings. It terrified me and I have no idea how we didn't hit anyone, anything or had an uncontrolled gybe! Did learn a bit back then.

But on a different tack, Gladys and I were collecting data in Lawling Creek last year when it turned out is was a Maylandsea Regatta. We called one safety boat over to talk and discuss when timing might be best as we wanted to try to do collect data in straight lines. The leader said, 'you've got to do the job. You just drive through as you need, I will tell everybody to get out of your way'! I thought that rather nice of them.

 

[oldgit]

When transitting any area with "racing" yachts however big or small tend slow right up and attempt with obvious early course change or not to show my intentions and then leave the craft to avoid me.
Unless of course something needs to be urgently done to avoid getting paint smears down the side of my boat.
Little terrors in Optimists always bring up a smile especially when being rounded up by a safety boat.

 

[ianc1200]

I think the replies so far have missed the point I was trying to make - why not simply slow down, for probably 30 seconds, rather than speed up and try and race ahead?

 

[johnalison]

I think the replies so far have missed the point I was trying to make - why not simply slow down, for probably 30 seconds, rather than speed up and try and race ahead?

Each situation is different, but a yacht returning or going out on the tide can’t be expected to wait for an hour for the race to finish. Generally, most of us will attempt to pass astern of a tacking dinghy but there can be occasions when having done so the dinghy tacks earlier than expected and the yacht finds itself again in its path, when speeding up might be the obvious action when the alternative would be a crash stop.

 

[alandalus11]

Only an observation and I am sure I will get shot down with the usual crash and burn but whenever I have come across racing dinghy's on the Crouch, in my view the people racing dinghy's seem to have the attitude that they are racing and stuff the consideration of other water users. I get the impression that they seem to be entitled and it's their water and safety or not the race is more important. Not a whisker of help from safety boats.
Then on a different view, we were sailing in convoy up to Woodbridge one year. A rib came over to the lead boat and said if you slow down we will get everyone to move out of your way. Two very different approaches, one considerate and the other inconsiderate.
Sometimes when something bigger is approaching rather than having and entitled attitude it may be better to get out of the way.

 

[xyachtdave]

I'd say in every crossing situation where we are clearly the stand on vessel with a motoring yacht, 80% of the time more throttle is applied rather than less. In the Ionian when we are chartering there this rises to 100%.

Large groups of dinghies can be troublesome to avoid when they've set a race and are using all the navigation buoys in a channel as marks of their course.

You'll probably upset someone sailing or motoring through it no matter what you do, we do our best to keep out the way but don't take any old lip.

We tacked out the way once and put the boat in the shallows to let a fleet round a mark only to be told we were disturbing their wind by a bloke near the back. I'm not sure that was the case then but it certainly was later on when we followed him up Gillingham reach, he was kneeling in his boat like William Dafoe from the cover of the film 'Platoon' pointing at his flappy sails.

All good fun.

 

[Puffin10032]

Each situation is different, but a yacht returning or going out on the tide can’t be expected to wait for an hour for the race to finish. Generally, most of us will attempt to pass astern of a tacking dinghy but there can be occasions when having done so the dinghy tacks earlier than expected and the yacht finds itself again in its path, when speeding up might be the obvious action when the alternative would be a crash stop.

I don't think the OP is suggesting that yachts wait for the racing to finish. I was at Walton a few weeks ago as part of the excellent Swallows and Amazons weekend. On the Thursday evening we were discussing what time we should launch in order to get to Oakley Creek and back. The locals advised us to get off as early possible so that we were back at around high tide. They impressed on us that trying to get back against the ebb is not a fun experience. The club actually time their races so that they're back around high tide. That leaves plenty of time for yachts to motor out with nary a sailing dinghy in sight should they wish to have a clear run.

 

[The Q]

I normally sail on a river on the Norfolk broads, we were tacking up river a couple of weeks ago, when I had a day motorboat try to overtake to windward, they got the idea it might be good to slow down as we approached the opposite river bank..

It's problem we face here, the widest part of our river course is 180 ft, narrowing to 90 ft further up.
School holiday season you get a continuous trail of motor boats in both directions. If they are being good, they'll follow each other within 6 ft of the bank. If they do that we'll treat them as the bank and tack off. Every so often you'll get one that decides keeping right is just right of the centre line, or tries to overtake both sailing boats and motor boats. It's then chaos happens.

Occasionally you'll get a non competing yacht that decides he might run aground if he goes near a river bank even though we have keels and sail right up to the banks. They seem annoyed when they then get our boats all around them.

Next week I'll go onto the broads forums, and facebook to give advice on getting through or avoiding our regatta week. Unfortunately those who read such things are the responsible ones anyway. But at least my giving race timings gives them the choice of going through at quiet times.

 

[swatchways]

I wonder if it’s to remove the doubt as it were. In recent years we’ve been whacked a few times on our mooring there. Last one was especially stressful as they impaled themselves on our anchor and when freeing themselves scraped all the way down the hull, getting battens stuck on our shrouds again. By this point I was up on deck and grabbed their forestay to hold them off until they had a bit of time to sort themselves. Crew was apologetic and a bit shaken but skipper was somewhat shouty which didn’t really add any positivity to the experience.

Anyway, I don’t type this as criticism, I’ve had plenty cockups myself. It was simply an unfortunate incident and everyone was ok which was the main thing. However, as it’s a stressful experience for both I do wonder if encounters like this are more common than we know and potentially drive the behaviour you describe. I’m in the hang back and let others sort themselves out, but I could understand some feeling they’d be better controlled behind them. It’s similar to the roads, we never really know what has informed the decision making I suppose.

 

[johnalison]

I don't think the OP is suggesting that yachts wait for the racing to finish. I was at Walton a few weeks ago as part of the excellent Swallows and Amazons weekend. On the Thursday evening we were discussing what time we should launch in order to get to Oakley Creek and back. The locals advised us to get off as early possible so that we were back at around high tide. They impressed on us that trying to get back against the ebb is not a fun experience. The club actually time their races so that they're back around high tide. That leaves plenty of time for yachts to motor out with nary a sailing dinghy in sight should they wish to have a clear run.

I was with you until your last sentence. I just don't think it is on to have to consider changing one's time of arrival or departure on the off-chance that there might be a dinghy fleet in the creek.

I can remember from my days of racing how one's attention becomes totally fixated on the boat ahead or behind and the rest of the world fades into a sort of mental mush, which can lead to conflict with non-racers (or stationary objects even). On the other hand, there does, as has been pointed out, seem to be a preference under power to want to speed up. A similar thing occurs on roads, such as when during a tight overtaking manoeuvre almost all drivers will speed up, when the correct action is to ease off. I don't think I am a particularly pushy boat-motorer, but I will occasionally adopt my position of stand-on vessel (usually when in conflict with Dutch sailors, but that's another story).

 

[ianc1200]

Each situation is different, but a yacht returning or going out on the tide can’t be expected to wait for an hour for the race to finish. Generally, most of us will attempt to pass astern of a tacking dinghy but there can be occasions when having done so the dinghy tacks earlier than expected and the yacht finds itself again in its path, when speeding up might be the obvious action when the alternative would be a crash stop.

There was no other dinghies to consider, no complications of boats on buoys, tide, depth, no waiting for lots of dinghies to finish a race - simply a crossing situation where the motoring yacht, as they mainly do, try and beat the racing dinghy. I tacked to avoid a collision, suggested they go round the back of a tacking dinghy and received a feeble set of reasons why they had sped up.
Also was on the Swamazons weekend with my Smacksboat, highlight was Sunday going up the Dardenelles and over the bridge back onto the Wade, something I haven't done before.

 

[Puffin10032]

I was with you until your last sentence. I just don't think it is on to have to consider changing one's time of arrival or departure on the off-chance that there might be a dinghy fleet in the creek.

They have just as much right to be there as you have.

 

[DanTribe]

I often find it's the tail enders who are most belligerent and shout "we're racing!", to which I reply, "well you're not very good at it".

 

[johnalison]

They have just as much right to be there as you have.

No-one denies that. I’m just suggesting that the idea that cruisers might want to avoid periods when dinghies might be racing as being a bit extreme. While a motoring yacht should, and must, obey collision rules, a dinghy fleet per se does not have the right to exclusive use of a channel in regular use.

 

[dunedin]

No-one denies that. I’m just suggesting that the idea that cruisers might want to avoid periods when dinghies might be racing as being a bit extreme. While a motoring yacht should, and must, obey collision rules, a dinghy fleet per se does not have the right to exclusive use of a channel in regular use.

Sensible yachtsmen have adjusted times of departure for tides, weather and other factors for years. Giving them information on t8mes of racing gives the opportunity to have a stress free departure shoukd they choose to so.
On the other hand if you can depart entirely under sail upwind on starboard tack, then feel free to depart when you want. But if motoring, on port tack or upwind boat then as give way vessel under ColRegs you may need to do a lot of giving way,