What's a storm?

[Christopher_B]

What\'s a storm?

Saw this in YM this month; "[We had] three reefs in the main and almost all the foresail, a high-cut Yankee, rolled. By nightfall, however, the seas had got up quite a bit, the wind was a steady 35 knots and we were still tramping along at 7 knots." I've often read similar, from experienced and knowledgable people, so I ask this in due humility - triple reefed main and rolled up jib in 35 knots?

And I ask because ... Delivering an ageing Oyster 37 from Bermuda to the UK, the skipper wouldn't tolerate reducing sail unless - well unless nothing really. Two crew jumped ship in the Azores, we continued two-up. No self-steering, autopilot intermittent and a dodgy engine so we couldn't afford the battery load, we steered all the way back. Log packed up soon after Bermuda but the wind speed indicator - what are they for? - worked fine. Which is how I came to be watching the apparent wind speed of around 25 knots as we surfed along under full sail, as it crept up to 30, then 35 (apparent, remember - we were on a very broad reach so it could have been 43 - 45). Going like the clappers, but no problems. Skipper had just turned in and I'd been sternly rebuked before for putting a roll in the genoa before so I hung on to see what would happen. 40 knots and still OK, but lively. Wind changed gear and I just saw it go to 45 and rising when she dug in, broached, flung me across cockpit and skipper out of bunk. Skipper emerges, grunts, puts a couple of rolls in genoa, goes back to sleep. Wind goes back to 35-ish apparent, so 40 + true, and on we go.

We had near gale or gale force winds most of the time, and only once put a reef in the main when it really got frisky. So I wonder - triple reefed main and rolled up jib in 35 knots? What's the reason for the difference? Diferent boat, different wave patterns, mad skipper?

 

[tcm]

Re: What\'s a storm?

sounds as tho you were downwind with all that sail up? beating in to the same wind, you'd be knocked down i think.

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: What\'s a storm?

Yes, on a broad reach as I said. Point is, other people with much reduced sail also going downwind in accounts I've read..

 

[ChrisE]

Which side do you dress, sir?

Being overpressed and roaring along is fine until you get a broach that puts the boom in the oggin and breaks if you are lucky or rolled if not and then you are 100s of miles from nowhere with a v. slow or v. wet boat. Then, somehow all the fun goes out of the situation, especially if you are shorthanded.

But if you are hairyarsed and love all of this kind of crap then you'll enjoy the challenge.

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: Which side do you dress, sir?

But we did broach, and we were thousands of mile from anywhere, and nothing broke - that's why I'm asking. Yes it's too too macho - the skipper was, more than a bit and truly bonkers. That's why two crew jumped ship. I wasn't making the decisions. I just want to know why one boat, downwind, similar size, is suffering with almost no sail in 35 knots and another is managing fine.

 

[webcraft]

Re: What\'s a storm?

You only need enough sail to achieve hull speed . . . any more is unnecessary. The amount of sail required in different conditions will vary considerably from boat to boat.

With the wind forward of the beam and hanging on to too much sail a reef or two can often result in an increase in boat speed. (Less heel, less rudder drag from weather helm.) Hanging on to full sail in too much wind is not just macho, it is pointless and possibly dangerous, as things are more likely to break.

Our boat is easily driven, so if we were going downwind in 35 knots we would generally have dropped the main and be running with about a third to a half of the genoa rolled away - and still be making 6+ knots (in a 27 foot boat).

- Nick

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Which side do you dress, sir?

from your description i don't think the reefed boat was 'suffering'. just operating in safe sensible cruising mode. it was probably operating at 20% of its limits. your gung ho skipper was driving at more like 90% of the limits and had a much higher chance of a serious accident.

pete goss gives an account of a similar incident during his OSTAR. in that case it did end in disaster.

that type of sailing is expected in the racing world but if i heard that a delivery skipper had treated my boat like that i'd have a few things to say.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: Which side do you dress, sir?

I could be wrong here, but... had you reefed down, you would have had a more comfortable ride without losing any speed. maybe?

 

[ChrisE]

Seeings as you are asking for a serious answer,

For once I agree with tcm, 35 knots downwind at 7 knots is 28 knot apparent a mere breeze for a 37 foot boat. Into the wind you'll have 42 knots apparent which is more than twice the wind pressure which is dependant upon the square of the speed of the wind. Not to mention the fact that upwind you'll be having the [censored] kicked out of you with every wave you punch through. Downwind, you'd need to be in winds of 49 knots to get a comparable wind pressure and that's a bicycle clips trip for me, at least.

Your skipper may have known what he was doing but his ideas of what is comfortable are at variance with mine. I speak as one who hired a delivery skipper to bring our boat back across the pond and he managed to do more damage to the boat in 6 weeks than we had managed in 12 months.

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: Which side do you dress, sir?

Hmm - the article went on "After an uncomfortable night with little sleep and no food - neither of us could keep food down, let alone cook it..." So the reefed boat's occupants clearly were suffering. Completely take the point that our boat was overcanvassed, pointlessly, probably dangerously, and certainly upwind it wouldn't just be pointless, it wouldn't be possible. But it wasn't actually uncomfortable. Perhaps it was the sea state that made the difference. This was in long, smooth ocean swells. Doubt the boat would have lasted long like that in the North Sea.

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: Seeings as you are asking for a serious answer,

To change the subject completely, what you said about the skippers ideas of comfort being at variance with yours reminded me of a holiday flight to Madeira. Halfway across, the pilot announced that the wind speed at destination was too high for a landing but he would continue a s it ws forecast to drop, and otherwise would divert. Reaching Madeira, he announced "well, the wind is now 40 knots which is the safe limit for landing here, so I think we'll give it a try..." No-one spoke, but you could hear the silent scream, "No, please, let's not give it a TRY". Similar disparity of comfort levels.

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: Seeings as you are asking for a serious answer,

I am governed by fear as soon as I start getting scared I reef. Wind spead is not a considereation on its own. Sometimes a combination of factors will scare me and at other times an almost identical set wont. I wont have a wind spead indicator on my boat. It leads to sailing by numbers. If I get onto someone elses boat it can realy freak me out as all bets are off and you just have to trust the skipper however difficult it is. I dont often go on other peoples boats for that reason.

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: Seeings as you are asking for a serious answer,

That's interesting. I don't have a wind indicator - useless and confusing things. What you said about different responses to similar conditions rings true to me. Could be the answer to this.

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: Seeings as you are asking for a serious answer,

In my youth after a heavy night I could wake up and be too scared to switch the engine on never mind leave the port. I dont drink much anymore. I sailed with a few pissheads or should I say alcaholics, they can show a disregard for conditions. I know this isnt about drinking but sometimes when the situation is unbelievable and sensless decisions are beeing made it lies at the heart of the problem.

 

[Roberto]

Re: What\'s a storm?

[ QUOTE ]
So I wonder - triple reefed main and rolled up jib in 35 knots? What's the reason for the difference? Diferent boat, different wave patterns, mad skipper?

[/ QUOTE ]

not only comfort, imho, possibly more prudent seamanship in the reefed boat: whatever your skipper may have thought, if one of you had fallen overboard with all canvas up it would have been next to impossible to attempt any kind of recovery manoeuver
ah, I see the skipper was sleeping below /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: What\'s a storm?

Yes, with only two on board prudence would suggest a more demure progress. Everyone seems to be concentrating on that, but the nagging question for me is that one boat experienced discomfort, even reefed right down, and the other didn't, even belting along under nearly full sail (however daft that may be). Seems odd.

 

[snowleopard]

Re: What\'s a storm?

one man's horribly uncomfortable is another man's exhilarating sail.

 

[CharlesM]

Re: What\'s a storm?

Christopher

What boat were you on? I am sure a heavy displacement boat long keel will be a much more comfortable ride than an equivalent length light displacement flat bottomed fin keel boat.

-hence my buying 17 tons rather than 7. (The fact that I can only afford ferro-cement has nothing to do with it - honest /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif)

Cheers
Charles
=======
7 sleeps /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Christopher_B]

Re: What\'s a storm?

Oyster 37, deep fin, IOR type, not a heavyweight.Had been a successful racer in it's day. The boat in the article that was reefed down was a Warrior 40 - don't know what's that like. I did wonder if a lightish, fin-keeled dinghy shaped boat might not actually be more comfortable when sailed quite hard as long as the seas aren't steep, rather than wallowing around slowly. We seemed to be planing on the waves, but as I said the log ws broken so I don't know the actual speed.

But I'm wondering if 'one man's horribly uncomfortable is another man's exhilarating sail' isn't the answer to all this.

 

[CharlesM]

Re: What\'s a storm?

I've been wondering that myself. So many people say they will not go out in anything over 35 knots... Personaly I think I would, but then maybe I am more of an adrenaline junkie.

cheers
Charles