Surprised by terms for boat purchase

[oldgit]

If you buy with a broker you have to accept the sale on his terms,if you buy privately you partly decide the course that things will take.
Basically are you confident enough to rely on your own own judgement of how good the boat is.
If you are prepared to take a risk you can save a 5% brokers fee on a duff boat ,if not,you can rely on the broker/surveyor/engine analysis people to check the boat and when they get it wrong you will still have a duff boat but at least it will not be your fault.
Ps.and dont even think about suing any of them cos you will be just throwing more money after bad and merely be making some lawyers very very happy.

 

[gjgm]

If you buy with a broker you have to accept the sale on his terms,.

Lets be clear, you mean dealer where he owns the boat, right? A broker is normally an agent for a seller, and said broker does not normally own the boat himself.

 

[Spi D]

True. And a keen and knowledgeable seller may well be a better business partner.

The big dilemma is when the owner decide to use a broker and you, as a buyer, will have to deal with that if you're after a specific boat.

 

[Tranona]

Usually a seller uses a broker because he does not want to get directly involved himself - for all sorts of reasons. He will know what the normal brokerage process is as he will have agreed to that when he appointed the broker. However, there is nothing to stop him from giving the broker different instructions, provided he is prepared to live with the consequences.

You can't escape the fact that buying and selling privately owned boats is (or can be) a complicated business - not just dealing with the practicalities but also with the "emotional" side. Using an intermediary potential removes much of the latter and puts the transaction on a more business like basis with well established ground rules.

Buying at a distance - or trying to is potentially much more fraught, not only in the sense of the cost and hassle of initial viewing, but also dealing often with a different legal system and process so you have to be prepared to be more flexible on both sides.

 

[Bbroomlea]

Brokers will have their own terms of business but what has been experienced seemed to be the norm when we were looking last year.

We eventually bought from a broker with a slightly different set-up. £1K deposit secured the boat from anyone else being able to view and ability to have a sea trial. There was a no quibble 10 day back out clause if we changed our mind for whatever reason. The 'subject to survey' went past the 10 days should the survey have gone past that time.

Seemed quite a sensible approach really - We were looking at a boat half the cost but I dont think the broker has a different policy for more expensive craft.

 

[Spi D]

Just to clarify: I have no problems with sellers or brokers making the rules.

They have the goods, I have the money and an exchange calls for a negotiated deal. Two parties in a contractual relation must agree on the terms.

The relation ('chemistry') between people means a lot because you put trust in dealing with someone.

If you do not trust in a seller, you walk away.

Edit: I had the opportunity to view some boats while traveling anyway (job) - otherwise I wouldn't have gone that far simply due to the cost of travelling.

 

[rubberduck]

Not read all posts but IMHO, sod the rules, you have the cash & they want to sell boats, they do it your way or not at all. I recently did this with a large bank who wanted my business, & am paying just over one third of other similar businesses but getting a lot more. Stick to your guns.

 

[gjgm]

Not read all posts but IMHO, sod the rules, you have the cash & they want to sell boats, they do it your way or not at all. I recently did this with a large bank who wanted my business, & am paying just over one third of other similar businesses but getting a lot more. Stick to your guns.

Hmm cash is king?
Well maybe it depends who you are dealing with. Possible if its an upgrade for you, seller is worth multiples of you, which might undermine your approach?

 

[Tranona]

Not read all posts but IMHO, sod the rules, you have the cash & they want to sell boats, they do it your way or not at all. I recently did this with a large bank who wanted my business, & am paying just over one third of other similar businesses but getting a lot more. Stick to your guns.

Don't think that approach will work with a private person. They are not after your business, nor do they want a long term relationship. If you want to buy the boat you have to respond to their conditions. They don't know you from Adam and if they had any sense they would tell you to get lost if you adopted that approach.

Different when you show commitment by entering into a contract to buy - but until then you do not have any bargaining power.

 

[rubberduck]

I thought the thread was about buying through a broker, no it wouldn't be the best approach if buying privately. I wouldn't want to be entering into a legal contract to buy a secondhand boat without having a feel for it, or the wording of that contract would need to be somewhat different to the standard.

 

[Spi D]

I guess we all do it in our own way.

To me a pragmatic approach and

They have the goods, I have the money and an exchange calls for a negotiated deal. Two parties in a contractual relation must agree on the terms.

usually works,

To negotiate you have to give 'n take from both sides and when you see things from the seller's perspective, you have a better chance of tweaking things into place. The process, and your skills negotiating, brings you to the point of yes/no to the contract.

As falling in love with an idea completely ruins your ability to think clear, you should in such case bring a person (SWMBO?) to keep you focussed on facts (££!).

 

[gjgm]

I thought the thread was about buying through a broker, no it wouldn't be the best approach if buying privately. I wouldn't want to be entering into a legal contract to buy a secondhand boat without having a feel for it, or the wording of that contract would need to be somewhat different to the standard.

Lets be clear, if you are buying through a broker- or rather a boat on brokerage- you are buying a privately owned boat;and you are buying through the broker, but the owner makes the decisions.
If you are buying from a dealer (who might also have brokerage boats on his list) the dealer owns the boat, and he is running an ongoing business. He is also under different legal conditions than a private seller.
There seems some confusion over the role of a broker in this thread.

 

[henryf]

A lot of posts are trying to equate selling boats to selling cars. Someone even mentioned exotic cars.

Well I can't speak for the exotic car dealers as we only sell humble Porsches but let me try to give my views. Someone pops over to see us at 911virgin manor and I have no issues in their having a test drive. It's what we are geared up for. All the the vehicles are ready to roll and easily accessible. The person has made an appointment to come and see us and as such we assume they are serious.

1 staff member, 15 minutes and a couple of quids worth of unleaded later the car's back in yard and hopefully it's a cup of coffee and "how do you take deposits?" in the meantime one of our valeters takes the car round to the back and cleans it up ready for the next outing.

Now in reality some people will have other cars to see or want to sleep on it and that's absolutely fine. We sell 250-300 car's in the course of a year and hence I can afford to eat most nights.

Now let's have a gander at the Boat scenario. That quick test drive will probably involve 2 members of staff to be nice and safe (or a member of staff and a surveyor). Pottering down the Hamble takes half an hour, 30-60 minutes as you have a play, look for a few different bits of water. Half an hour back up the Hamble. An hour or so giving the boat a wash down and putting the covers back on, £50, possibly £100 worth of diesel. You can see how things start to mount up.

Now it's all well and good the owner giving permission for test drives in his boat, but he or she isn't the one who having to cover those costs, and you need staff in the office whilst you're out on the water.

One solution is to charge for test drives, say £500- £1,000 for the sake of argument. Fully refundable against the purchase price but lost if you decide it's not a boat for you. How you deal with mechanical issues, under performance, that sort of thing is down to the individual dealer or broker but to avoid long drawn out arguments I'd suggest non refundable. It would also encourage brokers to actually look at the boats they're taking onto their books. Give it a trial, make sure nothing overheats and the thing does actually get up on the plane. That way they avoid the wrath of posters on here moaning about another lost trial fee from X brokerage because the bloody thing wouldn't get up on the plane and others chipping in the all of X's boats seem to be knackers.

At the moment the broker has no financial risk putting the boat on their books, in fact if they charge the seller an upfront fee the more the merrier.

The benefit for the buyer is that they don't feel under pressure to buy if they aren't happy with the sea trial. Maybe the boat didn't ride any better than their current boat, maybe it wasn't any quieter or didn't offer any more protection from the elements. They can walk away knowing they've paid their way and no one has suffered a loss other than them.

Purely my humble opinion, but you know I'm right

Keep smiling

Henry

 

[Nick_H]

If you (Tony 345) don't want to commit to buying before sea trial, then ask for the contract to be changed so that you can withdraw following sea trial without needing to prove a material fault exists, but understand that in return the seller will not be prohibited from selling to someone else in the meantime. The contract actually then does very little, but brokers/owners like to see a signed contract, because that's what they're used to, and it does at least record the nature of the deposit. I've bought all my boats like this (or some variation of it), because I also don't like committing to buy before trialling the boat.

 

[gjgm]

If you (Tony 345) don't want to commit to buying before sea trial, then ask for the contract to be changed so that you can withdraw following sea trial without needing to prove a material fault exists, but understand that in return the seller will not be prohibited from selling to someone else in the meantime. The contract actually then does very little, but brokers/owners like to see a signed contract, because that's what they're used to, and it does at least record the nature of the deposit. I've bought all my boats like this (or some variation of it), because I also don't like committing to buy before trialling the boat.

He didnt want to put a deposit down either...

 

[benjenbav]

There's an interesting article in the latest MBY making many of the same points as crop up on this thread.

I have to say that when I started buying boats I thought the standard process of signing a contract with quite a lot of walkaways was a bit odd, largely because my background is in commercial real estate in England and Wales where all of the negotiation, site testing etc takes place before the contract is signed and the period between signing and paying the balance is really only used for sorting out minor details (like getting hold of the money!)

I don't think I have ever actually bought a boat by signing a contract with a broker subject to survey and sea trial but this has always been for odd reasons. I certainly wouldn't have a problem in so doing but would think carefully about security for the deposit if I felt that it was a significant enough sum to be at risk.

 

[Tranona]

Lets be clear, if you are buying through a broker- or rather a boat on brokerage- you are buying a privately owned boat;and you are buying through the broker, but the owner makes the decisions.
If you are buying from a dealer (who might also have brokerage boats on his list) the dealer owns the boat, and he is running an ongoing business. He is also under different legal conditions than a private seller.
There seems some confusion over the role of a broker in this thread.

That is a common misunderstanding here - confusing broker with dealer. As you say when you are dealing with a broker, you are dealing with a representative of the owner, so in most senses, no different from dealing direct, except that the broker can only follow his client's instructions - although of course also has a duty to relay any offer to the client and provide advice on the potential deal.

Very few boats of any value are sold by dealers acting on their own account - and therefore owning the boat. If you are buying, it is essential to know the difference because the transactions take place under very different legal frameworks, which you may only discover if things go pear shaped. Many of the larger firms act as both brokers and dealers, depending on the ownership of the boat, but they should make it clear to a potential purchaser in which capacity they are acting.

 

[DAKA]

That is a common misunderstanding here - confusing broker with dealer. As you say when you are dealing with a broker, you are dealing with a representative of the owner, so in most senses, no different from dealing direct, except that the broker can only follow his client's instructions - although of course also has a duty to relay any offer to the client and provide advice on the potential deal.

Very few boats of any value are sold by dealers acting on their own account - and therefore owning the boat. If you are buying, it is essential to know the difference because the transactions take place under very different legal frameworks, which you may only discover if things go pear shaped. Many of the larger firms act as both brokers and dealers, depending on the ownership of the boat, but they should make it clear to a potential purchaser in which capacity they are acting.

Im my opinion this thread shouldnt get bogged down with the piffling details about Broker/dealer relationships.
The OP has the first hurdle of finding and choosing a boat to purchase first.
His instinct has already made him feel uneasy about the process (good instinct).
If you bog him down with too many technicalities and explain all the risks (client accounts, types of surveys, outstanding finance/VAT , Broker does not act for the buyer and owes him little duty) in buying from/through a Broker , so I dont think this guy will proceed to actually part with cash.

Buying privately may well suit this purchaser so let him find a boat and then I suggest he searches or comes back to request what is the next step.

I am not having a go at Brokers, I am looking at the wider picture in that if a boat isnt sold no one wins, if he buys a boat privately then he may set a new chain of sales off which Brokers can benefit from.

 

[gjgm]

Daka, I think you are wholly wrong. It is extremely important that any buyer understands the difference, and understands the process. Unfortunately it seems that many of the (perceived) injustices are due to ignorance.
Personally,I dont agree that a buyer is in the driving seat, and I dont agree there is always another boat. If OP does find the one he wants, he is far more likely to end up owning it if he understands and follows common practice, because a seller really isnt going to spend too much time with someone who wants the world only to spin his way.

 

[DAKA]

Daka, I think you are wholly wrong. It is extremely important that any buyer understands the difference, and understands the process. Unfortunately it seems that many of the (perceived) injustices are due to ignorance.
Personally,I dont agree that a buyer is in the driving seat, and I dont agree there is always another boat. If OP does find the one he wants, he is far more likely to end up owning it if he understands and follows common practice, because a seller really isnt going to spend too much time with someone who wants the world only to spin his way.

I think you have misinterpreted my post (could well be my fault in the way it was written).

I agree the OP needs to know that Brokers expect cash before a sea trial.

As the OP is against this , I was merely suggesting he could find a boat for sale and deal with the owner missing the Broker out.

Many owners love boating and will find any excuse for a cruise out without the need for a deposit (they dont want to be taken for mugs and will need convincing there is a real chance of a sale).

As a side issue I really dont see the point in going into too much detail now about the full sales process and Broker/dealer relationships, he needs to find a boat to buy first .

That said if he does want to buy through a Broker you are 100% right that he needs to know exactly how they like to be treated.