Surprised by terms for boat purchase

[tony345]

I'm in the market for a new Mobo - A broker sends me details of a probable candidate - which is pretty much the type and model I'm looking for. I've already seen a few exmaples of the same boat - so I know what I'm looking at, and what I'm looking for.

The broker is about 50 miles away, and the boat is commissioned, in the water on the Hamble.

I contact the broker to make an appointment to see the boat, and suggest that, as its on the water he could take me out for a spin. I want to make sure the engines are OK - and know what I'm looking for. The boat is priced at about £50k

His response it that - Its not standard practice to have a seatrial on the first viewing and the owner would really like me to make an offer, have it accepted, draw up draft contracts, and pay 10% deposit before he takes me out in his boat.

I'm amazed at this approach to say the least - my first reaction is - 'does this guy want to sell his boat?

You wouldn't buy or sell a car in this way. Car dealers (Jaguar and Land Rover in particular) regularly offer me test drives in the latest models - just because I happen to own one already (same value about £50k) when I've expressed no interest in buying a new car.

Surely its a buyers market at the moment - why would you put such obstacles in the way of making a sale!

I'm afraid I've no intention of making an offer on a boat which I haven't seen running - just as I wouldn't make an offer on a car I hadn't driven.

If this really is the normal way of business in buying/selling a boat - I think it needs dragging into the 21st Century

 

[DAKA]

I'm in the market for a new Mobo - A broker sends me details of a probable candidate - which is pretty much the type and model I'm looking for. I've already seen a few exmaples of the same boat - so I know what I'm looking at, and what I'm looking for.

The broker is about 50 miles away, and the boat is commissioned, in the water on the Hamble.

I contact the broker to make an appointment to see the boat, and suggest that, as its on the water he could take me out for a spin. I want to make sure the engines are OK - and know what I'm looking for. The boat is priced at about £50k

His response it that - Its not standard practice to have a seatrial on the first viewing and the owner would really like me to make an offer, have it accepted, draw up draft contracts, and pay 10% deposit before he takes me out in his boat.

I'm amazed at this approach to say the least - my first reaction is - 'does this guy want to sell his boat?

You wouldn't buy or sell a car in this way. Car dealers (Jaguar and Land Rover in particular) regularly offer me test drives in the latest models - just because I happen to own one already (same value about £50k) when I've expressed no interest in buying a new car.

Surely its a buyers market at the moment - why would you put such obstacles in the way of making a sale!

I'm afraid I've no intention of making an offer on a boat which I haven't seen running - just as I wouldn't make an offer on a car I hadn't driven.

If this really is the normal way of business in buying/selling a boat - I think it needs dragging into the 21st Century

Its the usual sort of hassle when brokers are involved.
Buying privately would suit you much better.
A private seller would make a judgement on site to decide how likely you are to proceed to purchase and then take you out on it or leave the doors locked without even showing you round.
The last boat I went to look at I took bank statements with me so the seller could see I was serious and he gave me a sea trial ( I paid his fuel).

Everyone is different, you just have to decide which approach suits you best.

 

[KevB]

I believe buying a boat subjuct to sea trial and survey is the norm. How do they know you're not just after a ride on a boat at someone elses expense?

 

[Firefly625]

..........His response it that - Its not standard practice to have a seatrial on the first viewing and the owner would really like me to make an offer, have it accepted, draw up draft contracts, and pay 10% deposit before he takes me out in his boat.

That is absolutely standard practice. I'm sure a few brokers will be along to give you their woeful stories of how when they have made the exception its all been a waste of time...

I'm amazed at this approach to say the least - my first reaction is - 'does this guy want to sell his boat?

I'm sure he does, but as standard practice dictate this is the way a boat sale is handled that's that... you could ask the broker to actually ask the seller the question..

Surely its a buyers market at the moment - why would you put such obstacles in the way of making a sale!

Not so sure about that... decent used stock is few and far between at the moment so I understand, so many used UK boats have gone to Europe brokers will know when they have a boat that is sure to sell... and if that is the case it will be even harder to try and get them to arrange a seatrial prior to you making an offer,

I'm afraid I've no intention of making an offer on a boat which I haven't seen running - just as I wouldn't make an offer on a car I hadn't driven. If this really is the normal way of business in buying/selling a boat - I think it needs dragging into the 21st Century

[/QUOTE]

well in that case you may not end up with a boat. I have now bought 3 boats (and sold 2), all from pretty large brokers, all in the standard industry format... offer placed subject to sea-trial... all worked out great.. Sometimes I feel people get really hung up about this, personally I don't feel its a problem... all IMHO I'm sure others will disagree...

as for the difference between selling a boat and selling a car... I know a little about the motor industry and it is a very different world for a number of reasons, but mostly due to volumes available...

 

[tony345]

Well thats part of life Kev, I'm selling my Range Rover at the moment - if you come round and ask for a test drive, how do I know your not just a joyrider who spends his time test driving other peoples cars?

I'm amazed at the previous post comment about taking your bank statement to prove you've got the money to buy the boat!

 

[gjgm]

Try a search on this topic.
In short those selling a boat in the course of their business (Broker/dealer) may well be prepared to let you "go for a spin". Boats owned by a third party, where the broker is agent are usually not too interested in putting their pride and joy up for a free education lesson into boat characteristics.
If you dont know what boat you want to buy, that is your problem, in my view, not mine.
BTW, buyers always seem to think they are the only person in the market;sellers often have a longer time horizon.
The norm is decide what boat, make an offer subject to survey and sea trial, pay for a survey,agree what is covered in the sea trail, trial and hopefully buy.
Of course there could be any number of ways of buying a boat, but in demonstrating you dont know the norm, you, maybe unfairly, demonstrate that you are not likely to complete.

 

[Nautorius]

I'm in the market for a new Mobo - A broker sends me details of a probable candidate - which is pretty much the type and model I'm looking for. I've already seen a few exmaples of the same boat - so I know what I'm looking at, and what I'm looking for.

The broker is about 50 miles away, and the boat is commissioned, in the water on the Hamble.

I contact the broker to make an appointment to see the boat, and suggest that, as its on the water he could take me out for a spin. I want to make sure the engines are OK - and know what I'm looking for. The boat is priced at about £50k

His response it that - Its not standard practice to have a seatrial on the first viewing and the owner would really like me to make an offer, have it accepted, draw up draft contracts, and pay 10% deposit before he takes me out in his boat.

I'm amazed at this approach to say the least - my first reaction is - 'does this guy want to sell his boat?

You wouldn't buy or sell a car in this way. Car dealers (Jaguar and Land Rover in particular) regularly offer me test drives in the latest models - just because I happen to own one already (same value about £50k) when I've expressed no interest in buying a new car.

Surely its a buyers market at the moment - why would you put such obstacles in the way of making a sale!

I'm afraid I've no intention of making an offer on a boat which I haven't seen running - just as I wouldn't make an offer on a car I hadn't driven.

If this really is the normal way of business in buying/selling a boat - I think it needs dragging into the 21st Century

Normal Practice of all Hamble Brokers. As this boat is not their boat is is up to the owner how much discretion and room for negotiation there is. They state the owner wants 10%, so it is his boat and his decision.

If I were you I would go down and look at it and ask for the engines to be started. Then iff you are happy pay the 10% and have a seatrial and survey. As part of the contract you have the option of having any defects sorted so if their is a problem the owner will put it right, discount the boat or allow you to walk away.

Having sold 2 boats on the Hamble I also ensured that their were no sea trials without a deposit. In one case I sold to a nother forumite off here and gave him full Sea Trial etc without any monies exchanging....but that was a private sale not through the broker.

Cheers

Paul

 

[asteven221]

I agree with Firefly, it's fairly standard practice. It's not a big issue anyway. All you do is check out the boat to see if in all ways it suits you and you are happy with everything. Assuming that's the case make an offer subject to surveys and a sea trial. Get an oil analysis done and an engine survey done. You can negotiate that your deposit will be returned if the deal doesn't happen.
Cars are totally different of course so the comparison isn't valid really.

Also, sods law says that if you actively in the market to buy a particular model of boat, then the number available dries up! When you are just browsing, there are loads on the market. When you go to sell, then there are loads on the market. Seems that that's the way it is! LOL.

 

[tony345]

Well Gigm - its the only business I've come across where the buyer has to almost beg the seller to deal with him. But I do understand the brokers position here where they are subject to the whim of the owner.

As I said - I do know this model of boat quite well and I've already looked over a few. My main concern is whether the engines are OK as they are the most expensive thing to replace or fix if not - and in my view the best way to test this is to prove it at sea. I'm simply not prepapred to put money on the table until I know the boat is OK.

However, from other comments on here perhaps it is a sellers market. If stock is limited and buyers plentiful then I guess sellers can dictated the terms.

I was just surprised that the process is so different from buying a car or a house. And, I guess, equally surprised that buyers put up with it.

 

[DAKA]

I'm amazed at the previous post comment about taking your bank statement to prove you've got the money to buy the boat!

As I said everyone is different (and I am sure some on here think I am more different that others)

I assumed as you didnt like the normal broker approach buying privately may have suited you but if you dont like the idea of paying a deposit or demonstrating means of payment then you have a bit of a problem, perhaps someone desperate to get a sale (stolen/osmosis/sunk/dodgy engine) may take a risk with you, if you are 'lucky'.

 

[Renegade_Master]

The standard contract is there to protect both parties. The deposit is there to ensure the buyer is ernest and not wasting time. The broker does not own the boat and therefore is not at liberty to give free sea trials. Believe me if they relented to giving free trips to all enquirers they would spend there time and money (and their cleints fuel) giving free rides in someone elses pride and joy....and what if there was an accident, who pays for the damage.

The worse example I remember was that had a serious enquiry after a £200k plus boat, I talked to the owner as I had recently seen the boat lifted, he said oh yes there is an offer via another broker, the guy has paid for lift survey and sea trial so I guess its sold.

Turns out the broker had no deposit and no sale and purchase agreement signed, meanwhile the guys wife said she prefers another boat they had seen so they walked away. I recontacted my buyer who in the meantime had found an alternative, result the boat never got sold.

 

[adey]

To use your car analogy how would you respond if you were advertising an exotic sports car and someone phoned you wanting to 'go for a spin' seeing as you were only 50 miles away and the car's already on the road?

 

[Whitelighter]

I'm in the market for a new Mobo - A broker sends me details of a probable candidate - which is pretty much the type and model I'm looking for. I've already seen a few exmaples of the same boat - so I know what I'm looking at, and what I'm looking for.

The broker is about 50 miles away, and the boat is commissioned, in the water on the Hamble.

I contact the broker to make an appointment to see the boat, and suggest that, as its on the water he could take me out for a spin. I want to make sure the engines are OK - and know what I'm looking for. The boat is priced at about £50k

His response it that - Its not standard practice to have a seatrial on the first viewing and the owner would really like me to make an offer, have it accepted, draw up draft contracts, and pay 10% deposit before he takes me out in his boat.

I'm amazed at this approach to say the least - my first reaction is - 'does this guy want to sell his boat?

You wouldn't buy or sell a car in this way. Car dealers (Jaguar and Land Rover in particular) regularly offer me test drives in the latest models - just because I happen to own one already (same value about £50k) when I've expressed no interest in buying a new car.

Surely its a buyers market at the moment - why would you put such obstacles in the way of making a sale!

I'm afraid I've no intention of making an offer on a boat which I haven't seen running - just as I wouldn't make an offer on a car I hadn't driven.

If this really is the normal way of business in buying/selling a boat - I think it needs dragging into the 21st Century

Yeah, and look how many joy riders turn up to freedom drive days never to be seen again? I used to work in the motortrade and these days we sold cars 99% of the time to people already known to us.

You are making a classic mistake - you are NOT buying a car. If you need to trial the boat to see if it suits you, perhaps you are not ready to buy. might I suggest chartering something.

If on the other hand, you know for sure that that type of boat is for you then go see it, look in all the lockers, test the bed, test the loo, check the hull, check the electronics work etc etc etc. Once you've done all that you assume the mechanicals are sound and make an offer with deposit. THEN, you get a surveyor to accompany you on a demo (because without one its a waste of time really - unless you really are just after a nice hour out) and any offer is SUBJECT TO A CLEAR SURVEY. If you find fault, you can either back out with the return of your deposit, or negotiate over the rectification cost.

Unlike a car, a seatrial takes a couple of hours and costs £500 upwards with fuel, insurance, skipper etc etc - a car demo round the block for a dealer who's staff are twiddling their thumbs anyway is virtually nill.

If you cant see the above makes sense, then I suggest you probably are a bit of a time waster.

 

[Whitelighter]

I was just surprised that the process is so different from buying a house

So when you last bought a house did you want to live in it for a day before you made an offer?

In fact, did you have a survey before you made an offer, or did you infact do what the other 3m house buyers do each year which is view, agree terms, then get a survey????

If the survey was rubbish, you walk away.

Its the same with the boat, the only reason for a deposit is that it is security to cover costs involved from YOUR survey in the event you 'change you mind' after your nice little jolly.

You are not putting money on the table without security - you are clearly saying 'I will buy the boat for £x, here is my deposit of x% on the basis everything is 100% If my subsequent seatrial and survey shows its a lemon needing 2x new engines you walk away WITH YOUR DEPOSIT.

I ask you seriously, what is your problem with that?

Unless of course, you are just playing the game...

 

[fireball]

I can see what the OP is getting at ... one of the major assets of the vessel is the engine - and it's difficult to judge these without seeing/hearing them work...

However, you can get a good idea about the condition of the boat by going to look at it - pictures don't always tell the whole story. You get a chance to review the service log (if any) and check the whole boat for use.
If you're lucky (and nice to the broker) they may start the engines up - but don't think you're likely to leave the berth until the seller has firm indication of your commitment (ie acceptable offer and suitable deposit).

This can make it tricky if you're not exactly sure what model you want and would ideally sea trial it before committing - but that's where you come on here, ask questions and hopefully a fellow forumite has a suitable boat for you to join them on - which was how we decided that our boat would be fine for us even without a sea trial.

 

[Tranona]

Well Gigm - its the only business I've come across where the buyer has to almost beg the seller to deal with him. But I do understand the brokers position here where they are subject to the whim of the owner.

As I said - I do know this model of boat quite well and I've already looked over a few. My main concern is whether the engines are OK as they are the most expensive thing to replace or fix if not - and in my view the best way to test this is to prove it at sea. I'm simply not prepapred to put money on the table until I know the boat is OK.

However, from other comments on here perhaps it is a sellers market. If stock is limited and buyers plentiful then I guess sellers can dictated the terms.

I was just surprised that the process is so different from buying a car or a house. And, I guess, equally surprised that buyers put up with it.

As others have said it is standard practice - but not "compulsory". The boat is someboy's personal private property. The broker represents the owner's interest and as I am sure some brokers will be along soon to tell you, they need the owner's specific permission to allow you to use the boat.

Once you have shown that you are a serious potential buyer by entering into a contract to buy, then the situation may well change. The contract is there to protect both your and the vendor's interests - he is prepared to withdraw the boat from the market to allow you to satisfy yourself the boat is what it says it is, and you know that he will not sell it to somebody else.

Exactly the same principle applies to a private transaction direct with the owner and the owner can make his own decision about whether he lets you loose on his property.

If as you claim you are familiar with the model of boat, can't see why you would want to try it before making a commitment to buy. If it is what you want, make your offer and follow the normal procedure. As others have said, it really is not a problem. If the boat is not as described, then the contract will allow you to renegotiate or in extreme withdraw.

Remember, in a purchase such as this, you have no comeback if you discover faults after you have bought the boat, so your engine tests and sea trial should be undertaken by a professional who will protect your interest and have a responsibility to you if he is wrong. the contract will lay out the terms and conditions of the sea trial - again usually using a well tried standardised format.

 

[AdeOlly]

Well Gigm - its the only business I've come across where the buyer has to almost beg the seller to deal with him. But I do understand the brokers position here where they are subject to the whim of the owner.

As I said - I do know this model of boat quite well and I've already looked over a few. My main concern is whether the engines are OK as they are the most expensive thing to replace or fix if not - and in my view the best way to test this is to prove it at sea. I'm simply not prepapred to put money on the table until I know the boat is OK.

However, from other comments on here perhaps it is a sellers market. If stock is limited and buyers plentiful then I guess sellers can dictated the terms.

I was just surprised that the process is so different from buying a car or a house. And, I guess, equally surprised that buyers put up with it.

As has been said, no comparison between buying a car from dealer, who owns the car, and a boat where he normally does not, or the relative costs involved.

I'm buying at the moment, as well as selling, and it really isn't the problem you perhaps think it is. When you make an offer, just be clear what the conditions are and make sure they are agreed and recorded in writing. In my case the offer was conditional on quite a list of things including fixing all external GRP damage, the performance matching the claims made, and the usual 'free of material defects' condition, and some other things too. All accepted without any problem at all.

Although I've not backed out of a purchase after sea trial, a friend of mine has where the performance was well off that stated, and there was no issue getting his money back, but the cost of the lift in/out was deducted as this is usually at the buyer's expense. (I would have argued about that one myself in thehis position)

With the boat I have for sale, I would not be best pleased to hear from the broker that they'd taken half a dozen people round the Solent, used all my fuel, and would I mind paying for some more as none of those people were actually serious.... oh and somebody turned green and chundered over the helm.

 

[Nick_H]

.. test the bed, test the loo ..

hmm, think i'd rather let him drive the boat

 

[Spi D]

Hmm. I've been looking for a 'to me' new boat for some time.

Boats in France, Spain, Germany, Sweden and the UK. Once - and only once - was I asked for a preliminary contract and deposit. Formulated as an obligation to buy unless I could prove that the boat was not as described (!).

Ofcourse this was out of the question and when told so, the broker decided that is wasn't needed. Huh?

Well, that attitude saved me a jurney to the western outskirts of France

Most brokers seem to understand, that the effort and cost involved in travelling is not a thing you take on, to get a free 15 minute ride on a boat.

My next viewing will take me two hours by plane, three hours by hired car and take an overnighting in a guesthouse. Plus the return trip. Am I going just to get a freebee? Not likely..

The broker in this case is very friendly, professional and has a great situational awareness. And no, he did not demand a deposit. And no, I will not put an offer until I've surveyed the boat. And yes, if the boat suits me and we agree on the details, I'll sign the deal on the spot.

I think we may conclude, that every deal is unique and the process adapts to the situation.

Sellers or brokers who does not understand will not attract much business.

 

[gjgm]

Well Gigm - its the only business I've come across where the buyer has to almost beg the seller to deal with him. But I do understand the brokers position here where they are subject to the whim of the owner.

As I said - I do know this model of boat quite well and I've already looked over a few. My main concern is whether the engines are OK as they are the most expensive thing to replace or fix if not - and in my view the best way to test this is to prove it at sea. I'm simply not prepapred to put money on the table until I know the boat is OK.

However, from other comments on here perhaps it is a sellers market. If stock is limited and buyers plentiful then I guess sellers can dictated the terms.

I was just surprised that the process is so different from buying a car or a house. And, I guess, equally surprised that buyers put up with it.

Tony, a few others have perhaps clarified to you why the process as is it is. Remember there are both sides to the deal, and both sides want a (legal) understanding of how the transaction will take place. (Lets not enter the legal bit AGAIN!!)
You can make an offer subject to whatever conditions you wish, but the more unreasonable they might be, the less likely anyone will deal with you. Putting a deposit down (and please search on the security of that) commits the buyer to agree to sell to you, subject to agreed conditions. Everyone would expect such conditions to include working engines, but you might want an engineer to also look at them. What a seller will be less enthused about is something totally subjective- you are expected to be grown up and done your research in advance of making an offer.
You can withdraw from the deal and get your deposit refunded for any reasonable and agreed reasons, but given your unfamiliarity with the buying process, you might want to understand what is considered reasonable.
What you will really struggle with is the idea that as a prospective buyer of a boat, not necessarily this one, you want to test it without showing any good faith via a deposit. That basically sends the message you, personally, dont want to follow a well established practice, and want a totally free option to trying the boat.
Not many people will accept that.
So, the sea trial normally comes at the very end, not the beginning of the process after everything else has been taken care of.
If you really hope this boat might be the one for you, go back to the broker and discuss, but please remember the broker is an AGENT, and, while hopefully honest, is working for the seller and not for you.
BTW, havent looked at it for a while but on YBW.COM I think there is a guide to buying a boat...