Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems

[NormanS]

Please remember that some of us don't keep our boats in the south of England, and have to get our fuel from suppliers who mainly deal with commercial users, and so we can realistically ONLY use red diesel. There is no way that these suppliers are going to go to the trouble and expense involved in providing non marked fuel.

The RYA and others fought long and hard to keep the concession that we have legitimately to use red. Don't throw that away for the sake of access to a tiny length of Continental coastline. Just stay away from Belgium until they realise just how much it's costing them.

 

[macd]

How does Belgium manage this huge problem? And how do all the other EU countries get over it?

I presume leisure boats never had a dispensation such as the UK had, so their supply infrastructure simply evolved to suit its markets.

Incidentally, I was once told that the derogation (as it later became) of red diesel for leisure craft was originally by Churchill's decree after the Little Ships at Dunkirk. I've never found any confirmation of this. Can anyone confirm or refute?

 

[sailorman]

But they have never had supplies of marked diesel as the only source of fuel at the waterside - most is supplied by tankers.

That is the problem - a blanket EU Directive which did not take into account the different supply structures and usage patterns in the different states. Hence the agreed original derogation for the UK and Ireland.

This is not a UK vs Belgium problem, it is the EU failing to recognise differences. other states such as France who could also take the same line as Belgium do not because there is no issue of competition or loss of revenue.

I never mentioned marked fuel just pointing out we are not alone with a large coastal boundry

 

[sailorman]

I presume leisure boats never had a dispensation such as the UK had, so their supply infrastructure simply evolved to suit its markets.

Incidentally, I was once told that the derogation (as it later became) of red diesel for leisure craft was originally by Churchill's decree after the Little Ships at Dunkirk. I've never found any confirmation of this. Can anyone confirm or refute?

Fuel dye in the European Union[edit]

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2010) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
After August 2002, all European Union countries became obliged to add about 6 mg/L of Solvent Yellow 124, a dye with structure similar to Solvent Yellow 56, to heating fuel. This dye can be easily hydrolyzed with acids, splitting off the acetal group responsible for its solubility in nonpolar solvents, and yielding a water-soluble form. Like a similar methyl orange dye, it changes color to red in acidic pH. It can be easily detected in the fuel at levels as low as 0.3 ppm by extraction to a diluted hydrochloric acid, allowing detection of the red diesel added into motor diesel in amounts as low as 2-3%.

United Kingdom[edit]
In the United Kingdom, "red diesel" is dyed gas oil for registered agricultural or construction vehicles such as tractors, excavators, cranes and some other non-road applications such as boats. Red diesel carries a significantly reduced tax levy compared to un-dyed diesel fuel used in ordinary road vehicles. As red diesel is widely available in the UK, the authorities regularly carry out roadside checks. Unauthorized use incurs heavy fines but despite this spot checks have occasionally found as many as one in five motorists using red diesel.[1]

Red diesel can also be used in road vehicles which are registered as SORN with the DVLA provided they are only used on private land. On 14 July 2014, the European Commission announced it was referring the United Kingdom to the European Court of Justice over the use of red-diesel in propelling private pleasure craft on water. It believes the UK is not properly applying EU regulations for the fiscal marking of fuels. [2]

On 18 November 2014, a new measure to combat fuel laundering should result in the illegal trade being "virtually eliminated" in the United Kingdom, according to the HM Revenue and Customs. A new dye will be introduced in April 2015 in the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.[3]

What then happens if said private vehicle is later used on the road

 

[st599]

the CA are very active in Politico lobbying, well worth the subscription.

Agreed, but there note says the Belgian Authorities aren't adhering to the CA's notice.

 

[Pinnacle]

Agreed, but there note says the Belgian Authorities aren't adhering to the CA's notice.

I think you may have misunderstood.

There is no way the Belgian Authorities will "adhere" to a Notice issued by the CA. What the CA notice did do was set out the position of the Belgian Authorities as it then understood it. What the BA are now doing is something different - hence they are not following the advice to its members the CA issued in its Notice.

The position to me remains crystal clear - avoid the Country and its waters at all times!

 

[macd]

Fuel dye in the European Union[edit]...

I'm not sure that answers Biggles Wader's question, sailorman. I'm presuming that the critical difference between the UK and Belgian (and other) markets is that for (at least) many decades duty-free and duty paid fuels were both sold waterside in the latter and the supply evolved to suit. The UK's fuel history is very different, and little evolution to suit today's regulations has taken place. Nor will it, if the present fudge continues. (Although I have to say it was a pragmatic and typically British compromise when derogation ended -- which worked adequately but for the intrusion of a few pernickety officials. The latter are by no means exclusively a Continental phenomenon.)

 

[Tranona]

I never mentioned marked fuel just pointing out we are not alone with a large coastal boundry

If you don't want to misunderstood then suggest you explain why you are making the observation. Words are free and only need assembling in the right order to convey meaning.

Your observation was in a series of posts about how other EU countries cope with not having marked diesel. I was just explaining for those interested why Greece does not have any problem despite a long coastline.

Your single line has no meaning in this context.

 

[sailorman]

If you don't want to misunderstood then suggest you explain why you are making the observation. Words are free and only need assembling in the right order to convey meaning.

Your observation was in a series of posts about how other EU countries cope with not having marked diesel. I was just explaining for those interested why Greece does not have any problem despite a long coastline.

Your single line has no meaning in this context.

I refer you, Sir, to post 357

 

[dom]

I refer you, Sir, to post 357

FWIW Greece has the most dysfunctional and corrupt EU fuel market as it is not possible to freely import/export petroleum products. The market is controlled by two dominant players: HellenicPetroleum and Motor OilHellas.

There are are imperfect records (an understatement) of petroleum imports and exports, visits by poorly documented Eastern European tankers and a routine blending of duty-free heating and shipping fuel with duty-paid road diesel. The Hellenic Competition Commission has highlighted the problem, consumers are angry, but progress is slow. The IMF estimates that the Greek Government still loses up to EUR 600m in lost duties.

By contrast the UK's fuel markets have evolved in a competitive and free way and the red diesel rules are one tiny piece of this jigsaw. Red diesel is available in most ports, red and white in others, and sometimes different fuel blends -- the market decides.

Dismantling a whole corner of this jigsaw to accommodate the capricious actions of a few customs officers in a country where recreational boating is concentrated to a few ports seems nuts. Especially given that neighbouring France, the Netherlands and Germany have no interest in pursuing this route.

Is it not easier to simply avoid Belgium?

 

[Champagne Murphy]

Is it not easier to simply avoid Belgium?

It probably is. Can be a bit of a pig though when you've got to go North of the new Westerschelde wind farm to avoid Belgian territorial waters.
Also it only really affects the East Coast sailors/mobo-ers which makes it niche interest in UK terms.
Probably all down to a Belgian Cabinet Minister who wants to make a name for themselves.

 

[sailorman]

It probably is. Can be a bit of a pig though when you've got to go North of the new Westerschelde wind farm to avoid Belgian territorial waters.
Also it only really affects the East Coast sailors/mobo-ers which makes it niche interest in UK terms.
Probably all down to a Belgian Cabinet Minister who wants to make a name for themselves.

Also British windfarms can be transited, the Dutch, Belgian are strictly out of bounds so again makes for longer "family" passages. Oostende is a great landfall, only 72 mls from Harwich & something there for the whole family.
The whole red issue is pointless, the Belgian plod gain a few thousand €s & the Belgian Nation loose many times more in revenue & tax`s

 

[Pinnacle]

Is it not easier to simply avoid Belgium?

Yes!

As has already been mentioned in an earlier post, local businesses losing trade and lobbying their own Authorities to amend their behaviour is the most likely route by far to get the result we in the UK would like to see.

 

[Daydream believer]

Is it not easier to simply avoid Belgium?

But I want to go to the Paulusfeesten as I have done for the last 17 years. My father would not let me go & watch degenerate pop groups as a lad. Now I am 70 years old & he is dead & gone, I am still being told I cannot go !!!!!
I want to visit all the haunts I visit every year using my boat as a base, I want to drink in the RNSYC, as I have done since 1970, I want to dine in some of my favourite restaurants. I want to buy chocolates to bring home for the wife ( I go on my own she hate pop groups)
I get a bit p..d off when the only answer is - no you cannot, do not go there.

I am going to go anyway & will be there 08-18 August & see what luck I have . Keep my fingers crossed !!!!

 

[Champagne Murphy]

But I want to go to the Paulusfeesten as I have done for the last 17 years. My father would not let me go & watch degenerate pop groups as a lad. Now I am 70 years old & he is dead & gone, I am still being told I cannot go !!!!!
I want to visit all the haunts I visit every year using my boat as a base, I want to drink in the RNSYC, as I have done since 1970, I want to dine in some of my favourite restaurants. I want to buy chocolates to bring home for the wife ( I go on my own she hate pop groups)
I get a bit p..d off when the only answer is - no you cannot, do not go there.

I am going to go anyway & will be there 08-18 August & see what luck I have . Keep my fingers crossed !!!!

Good luck and report back!

 

[NormanS]

But I want to go to the Paulusfeesten as I have done for the last 17 years. My father would not let me go & watch degenerate pop groups as a lad. Now I am 70 years old & he is dead & gone, I am still being told I cannot go !!!!!
I want to visit all the haunts I visit every year using my boat as a base, I want to drink in the RNSYC, as I have done since 1970, I want to dine in some of my favourite restaurants. I want to buy chocolates to bring home for the wife ( I go on my own she hate pop groups)
I get a bit p..d off when the only answer is - no you cannot, do not go there.

I am going to go anyway & will be there 08-18 August & see what luck I have . Keep my fingers crossed !!!!

I was always told, "I want gets nothing".
Go, and then throw your toys out of the pram when you get fined.

 

[Daydream believer]

Good luck and report back!

Thanks - I will

 

[sailorman]

But I want to go to the Paulusfeesten as I have done for the last 17 years. My father would not let me go & watch degenerate pop groups as a lad. Now I am 70 years old & he is dead & gone, I am still being told I cannot go !!!!!
I want to visit all the haunts I visit every year using my boat as a base, I want to drink in the RNSYC, as I have done since 1970, I want to dine in some of my favourite restaurants. I want to buy chocolates to bring home for the wife ( I go on my own she hate pop groups)
I get a bit p..d off when the only answer is - no you cannot, do not go there.

I am going to go anyway & will be there 08-18 August & see what luck I have . Keep my fingers crossed !!!!

Thats the British Spirit
Nil illegitmo carbrundum

 

[Tomahawk]

Nil desparado illigetimi et carburundum

 

[Daydream believer]

Thats the British Spirit
Nil illegitmo carbrundum

Yes . I failed latin at grammar school as well