Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems
- Thread starter Momac
- Start date
awol
Well-known member
Perhaps someone should tweet it to Trump. Mexicans, Koreans, Syrians, Belgians - he will get round to them all eventually.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
Don't have a twatter account.
maby
Well-known member
I believe that this is more an informal international convention than international law. Countries do not normally seek to enforce local taxation laws and other fuel related regulations on vessels passing through their waters, but I don't think there is anything in accepted international law which says that they have to.
sailorman
Well-known member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
Reply from The CA to my correspondence with them
I am not a member but tried to give them our info
Hello Sailorman, Thank you for your emails and the Belgian replies.
This problem has existed for over four years. We contacted the Belgian authorities in 2013, and after some considerable discussion, which included visiting the Belgian Embassy and pointing out the likely effect on local marinas and restaurants, but got no official response. Following this however, we found that people visiting in 2015 and 2016 seem not to have had any real problems. One problem we did hear of was a yacht which had a fuel can with red diesel in it. They were fined. We can only assume that the onset of the Brexit discussions has triggered the present situation. The legality, or not, of UK yachts being able to use red diesel is a complicated subject, and as you may know, the Belgian Government has a case before the European Court of Justice on this. Regrettably, we believe it best not to visit Belgium if you have any trace of red diesel in your tanks.
Regards, John Lansdell, Chair of the Regulations and Technical Services Committee (RATS), of the Cruising Association
Reply from The CA to my correspondence with them
I am not a member but tried to give them our info
Hello Sailorman, Thank you for your emails and the Belgian replies.
This problem has existed for over four years. We contacted the Belgian authorities in 2013, and after some considerable discussion, which included visiting the Belgian Embassy and pointing out the likely effect on local marinas and restaurants, but got no official response. Following this however, we found that people visiting in 2015 and 2016 seem not to have had any real problems. One problem we did hear of was a yacht which had a fuel can with red diesel in it. They were fined. We can only assume that the onset of the Brexit discussions has triggered the present situation. The legality, or not, of UK yachts being able to use red diesel is a complicated subject, and as you may know, the Belgian Government has a case before the European Court of Justice on this. Regrettably, we believe it best not to visit Belgium if you have any trace of red diesel in your tanks.
Regards, John Lansdell, Chair of the Regulations and Technical Services Committee (RATS), of the Cruising Association
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
The stupidity of the Belgian action is that it will do them no good apart from a few fines the revenue of which will be lost in administration. Of what advantage to them is it if another country allows the use of red diesel either duty paid or not in their flagged sailing vessels? They gain no revenue, it has to be a taxation issue of a sovereign nation.
The stupidity of the Belgian action is that it will do them no good apart from a few fines the revenue of which will be lost in administration. Of what advantage to them is it if another country allows the use of red diesel either duty paid or not in their flagged sailing vessels? They gain no revenue, it has to be a taxation issue of a sovereign nation.
Heckler
Active member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
Stu
As I have said before, and been accused of not liking foreigners! The Belgian Govt took a long time to form, typical proportional representation mess! Then they have to have Ministers. I suspect that it is either an inexperienced Minister OR more likely (and there has been some stories coming out) one with an agenda, that coupled with some bolshie officials with an agenda gets us where we are today. The only answer is, considering that the stories say any trace rather than a definitive amount, dont visit Belgium! Let market forces hit the stupid fools! I would also say that, given the number of Spanish boats around the Algarve, flying a Belgian flag and the port of Antwerp as their port of registration, Belgium needs to get its house in order and stop Spanish residents using its registration as a flag of convenience to avoid Spanish "luxury" tax!
Stu
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I was only quoting what the RYA told me & they say that it is an international law & a such , theoretically trumps EU law !!!!!!!
I wish
maby
Well-known member
OK - the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is international law and states that no coastal state should interfere with foreign flagged vessels on "Innocent Passage" through their waters. "Innocent Passage" effectively is defined as peaceful passage with no stops other than for emergencies. If a foreign flagged boat docks other than in an emergency, they can't claim Innocent Passage and become liable for the laws of the coastal state.
So if you sail from Holland to France through Belgian waters, you should be immune to interference from the Belgian authorities, but if you stop anywhere in Belgium, then they have the power to enforce EU rules relating to fuel being carried.
Grumpybear
New member
I think, strictly speaking, you mean the Belgian interpretation of EU rules.
maby
Well-known member
Their interpretation seems to be pretty close to the letter of the relevant EU Directives, I'm afraid!
Javelin
Well-known member
Two Belgian yachts came into Southwold today, I was sorely tempted...........
nortada
Well-known member
Law of the land you are currently in trumps any other law.
Especially if it is being administered by a bloke wearing a gun!
Sybarite
Well-known member
I have emailed the HQ asking them to clarify their position in the light of the economic impact that that might have. If they reply I will keep you posted.
nortada
Well-known member
Which HQ, RYA, CA and how will they be able to assess the economic impact?
Daydream believer
Well-known member
What I do not understand is that the RYA state that there should be no problem with a yacht carrying spare cans of fuel ( provided it is white) & the CA saying one should not do so.
It would be good if the Belgian customs could clarify this prior to my leaving.
When i go I will ask the question when i am boarded.
Simon ( RNSYC harbourmaster) has emailed me & agreed to keep my cans in his garage whilst I am there, so i will fill my tank as soon as I arrive. This will be some time around 2400 hours. Then I will take them up onto the dockside ASAP until I have been boarded. Hopefully I will not be boarded on arrival.
It would be good if the Belgian customs could clarify this prior to my leaving.
When i go I will ask the question when i am boarded.
Simon ( RNSYC harbourmaster) has emailed me & agreed to keep my cans in his garage whilst I am there, so i will fill my tank as soon as I arrive. This will be some time around 2400 hours. Then I will take them up onto the dockside ASAP until I have been boarded. Hopefully I will not be boarded on arrival.
Tin Tin
New member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
I quite agree.
Why is it then a problem when Belgium does indeed exercise its sovereignty.
1. France had a similar 'problem' a few years ago. French residents registering their boat in Belgium to get out of stringent French safety rules.
Belgian registered - but French owned - boats were plentiful.
One crackdown later, you hardly see any now.
2. It's not a Belgian 'problem' - they have their rules & regulations (as they are) and they apply them. If French or Spanish boaters use legal means to avoid taxes etc... it's up to the Spanish to close that loophole (as the French have done).
3. When you eventually get to Italy you will encounter plenty of yachts flying the red ensign without a single Brit aboard.
Pot/kettle?
I quite agree.
Why is it then a problem when Belgium does indeed exercise its sovereignty.
1. France had a similar 'problem' a few years ago. French residents registering their boat in Belgium to get out of stringent French safety rules.
Belgian registered - but French owned - boats were plentiful.
One crackdown later, you hardly see any now.
2. It's not a Belgian 'problem' - they have their rules & regulations (as they are) and they apply them. If French or Spanish boaters use legal means to avoid taxes etc... it's up to the Spanish to close that loophole (as the French have done).
3. When you eventually get to Italy you will encounter plenty of yachts flying the red ensign without a single Brit aboard.
Pot/kettle?
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
As pointed out there is international law that they are party too that means they should not be stopping boats transiting their waters. In addition it is accepted by convention that countries do not interfere with the taxation regimes of other countries. One has to ask the question, why are they doing it? to what purpose.
My answer to the problem would be to refrain from visiting the country by land or sea even if they change their stance, they have displayed a dog in the manger vindictive attitude and yes I did sail from the East Coast for a few years and I found Belgium to be uninteresting and not really worth visiting Holland was far more pleasurable.
I quite agree.
Why is it then a problem when Belgium does indeed exercise its sovereignty.
As pointed out there is international law that they are party too that means they should not be stopping boats transiting their waters. In addition it is accepted by convention that countries do not interfere with the taxation regimes of other countries. One has to ask the question, why are they doing it? to what purpose.
My answer to the problem would be to refrain from visiting the country by land or sea even if they change their stance, they have displayed a dog in the manger vindictive attitude and yes I did sail from the East Coast for a few years and I found Belgium to be uninteresting and not really worth visiting Holland was far more pleasurable.
Angele
Active member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
So far as I understand it, there is only one report of a vessel transitting Belgian waters that was stopped at sea and fined for red diesel, and that was at least a couple of years ago. All the other reports are of people who were visited by customs in a Belgian port. So, those are not people on "innocent passage". They are visiting the country.
Avoiding Belgian waters entirely, en route to Holland, is hard enough for people doing a crossing from the East Coast. For someone, like me, on the South Coast it requires a very significant diversion. However, so long as we don't start hearing more reports of people being fined at sea, I think I would be willing to risk a passage from (say) Dunkirk to Breskens or Vlissingen (non-stop).
So far as I understand it, there is only one report of a vessel transitting Belgian waters that was stopped at sea and fined for red diesel, and that was at least a couple of years ago. All the other reports are of people who were visited by customs in a Belgian port. So, those are not people on "innocent passage". They are visiting the country.
Avoiding Belgian waters entirely, en route to Holland, is hard enough for people doing a crossing from the East Coast. For someone, like me, on the South Coast it requires a very significant diversion. However, so long as we don't start hearing more reports of people being fined at sea, I think I would be willing to risk a passage from (say) Dunkirk to Breskens or Vlissingen (non-stop).
Tin Tin
New member
Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017
From what I have read on the issue, the Belgians are merely applying EU-wide legislation.
As long as we are members, this legislation also applies to us.
A few weeks ago, I asked a visiting Belgian yachtsman that very question.
It seems that until a few years ago, marine red diesel was also available to leisure craft in Belgium.
When the derogation passed, Belgian marinas were made to switch from red to white. (and have their tanks cleaned at the same time - at their own expense)
It was seen that to condone the continued use of marked diesel would give UK suppliers an unfair advantage.
Make of that what you will.
- I agree. Not visiting the country seems - at the moment - the only practical option.
- We called in Belgium a few times in the past, but as we sail a deep keel boat it was not exactly my favourite cruising ground. Neither was Holland. Though in Belgium the cuisine was better.
Last thing I will say on the subject: as long as the present situation continues, it's not only UK yotties and the Belgian tourism industry who suffer.
As is, Belgian boats also get fined if/when they take on fuel in Britain. Hence there is an impact on UK tourism too.
It continues to amaze me that UK marinas seem so reluctant to supply unmarked, white diesel is areas where there is a call for it.
IIRC, there was a report on the East Coast Forum that Ramsgate marina now supplies unmarked diesel and that it was doing brisk business.
From what I have read on the issue, the Belgians are merely applying EU-wide legislation.
As long as we are members, this legislation also applies to us.
A few weeks ago, I asked a visiting Belgian yachtsman that very question.
It seems that until a few years ago, marine red diesel was also available to leisure craft in Belgium.
When the derogation passed, Belgian marinas were made to switch from red to white. (and have their tanks cleaned at the same time - at their own expense)
It was seen that to condone the continued use of marked diesel would give UK suppliers an unfair advantage.
Make of that what you will.
- I agree. Not visiting the country seems - at the moment - the only practical option.
- We called in Belgium a few times in the past, but as we sail a deep keel boat it was not exactly my favourite cruising ground. Neither was Holland. Though in Belgium the cuisine was better.
Last thing I will say on the subject: as long as the present situation continues, it's not only UK yotties and the Belgian tourism industry who suffer.
As is, Belgian boats also get fined if/when they take on fuel in Britain. Hence there is an impact on UK tourism too.
It continues to amaze me that UK marinas seem so reluctant to supply unmarked, white diesel is areas where there is a call for it.
IIRC, there was a report on the East Coast Forum that Ramsgate marina now supplies unmarked diesel and that it was doing brisk business.