Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems

[longjohnsilver]

Re: again it seems...audiens cave ?

No reply & no acknowledgement of having received it either

Worth chasing them?

 

[sailorman]

Chased them


Dear sir,

Thank you for recent emails which we had received and had been looking into already to see how best to deal with this.

I understand the difficulty that you seemingly face, however, from my reading of your email there is a possibility of obtaining the correct marked fuel. Whilst this may not be easy to obtain, we are equally unable to change the rules which are seemingly imposed in terms of what type of fuel can be used.

We have come to the conclusion that the issue most likely falls under the competence of the “General Administration of Customs and Excise” (Algemene Administratie van Douane en Accijnzen) a department of the FPS Finance (Ministry of Finance).

We can only suggest that you initially try and contact them directly on info.douane@minfin.fed.be

(The alternative would be to direct your enquiry directly to the Cabinet (private office) of the Minister of Finance.)

With kind regards,

Christiaan Sys
Vice-Consul & Head of the Visa Section

Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London
SW1X 7EE
Tel. 00 44 (0)20 7470 3700
Fax 00 44 (0)20 7470 3795

Website Embassy of Belgium

 

[Mister E]

I have refitted my reserve tank to avoid having cans & I have to admit that would be a good idea if i had a diesel heater. Unfortunately I do not.

If you fit the heater it would be cheaper than the fine. Planar ones are a good price.

 

[Murv]

Chased them


Dear sir,

Thank you for recent emails which we had received and had been looking into already to see how best to deal with this.

I understand the difficulty that you seemingly face, however, from my reading of your email there is a possibility of obtaining the correct marked fuel. Whilst this may not be easy to obtain, we are equally unable to change the rules which are seemingly imposed in terms of what type of fuel can be used.

We have come to the conclusion that the issue most likely falls under the competence of the “General Administration of Customs and Excise” (Algemene Administratie van Douane en Accijnzen) a department of the FPS Finance (Ministry of Finance).

We can only suggest that you initially try and contact them directly on info.douane@minfin.fed.be

(The alternative would be to direct your enquiry directly to the Cabinet (private office) of the Minister of Finance.)

With kind regards,

Christiaan Sys
Vice-Consul & Head of the Visa Section

Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London
SW1X 7EE
Tel. 00 44 (0)20 7470 3700
Fax 00 44 (0)20 7470 3795

Website Embassy of Belgium

Thanks for doing that, much appreciated.
Not the result we wanted, but at least we know where we stand.

 

[johnalison]

Although not a member myself, I see that the CA is now recommending members to avoid Belgium altogether. This makes sense, though I'm not sure if I will follow their advice. We are currently in Amsterdam and will sooner or later want to get back to Walton in day sails. Roompot would be the obvious choice, but quite a large diversion is needed because of wind farms, and Breskens another possibility. I might just bite the bullet and go via our favoured Blankenberg, and if it costs mega-euros, their brewery industry will probably collapse, if I have anything to do with it.

 

[sailorman]

Although not a member myself, I see that the CA is now recommending members to avoid Belgium altogether. This makes sense, though I'm not sure if I will follow their advice. We are currently in Amsterdam and will sooner or later want to get back to Walton in day sails. Roompot would be the obvious choice, but quite a large diversion is needed because of wind farms, and Breskens another possibility. I might just bite the bullet and go via our favoured Blankenberg, and if it costs mega-euros, their brewery industry will probably collapse, if I have anything to do with it.

Try Cadzand

 

[seasicksteve]

Roompot would be the obvious choice, but quite a large diversion is needed because of wind farms

We just crossed from Roompot and followed the passage across the Borssele farm marked on the new Imray chart, although in fact there's nothing there at the moment. Not too much of a diversion. Left Zierikzee at dawn and got back into Harwich about 10pm - no wind but good engine so we were able to keep up 6-7 knots all the way.

 

[WFA]

We went over from Walton via Zeebrugge early June and returned a couple of weeks later direct from Vlissingen all in daylight. No inspections, boardings or dramas and deciding factor for arrival and departure was the Westersche tide.

 

[CLB]

We went over from Walton via Zeebrugge early June and returned a couple of weeks later direct from Vlissingen all in daylight. No inspections, boardings or dramas and deciding factor for arrival and departure was the Westersche tide.

You are missing the point. They have decided, since your visit, to crack down on red diesel. Many of us have been to Belgium in the past, but it's the now and the future that is the problem.

 

[johnalison]

We just crossed from Roompot and followed the passage across the Borssele farm marked on the new Imray chart, although in fact there's nothing there at the moment. Not too much of a diversion. Left Zierikzee at dawn and got back into Harwich about 10pm - no wind but good engine so we were able to keep up 6-7 knots all the way.

Very helpful, thanks. I have the new Imray chart and have already marked the channel with waypoints, so maybe that's the way to go. We usually motor at about 6.5, so it should work. I haven't yet worked out how the tides will run, as I need some water at Pye End.

 

[Pete7]

Why not target the Belgian tourist offices instead, because its the loss on income that is likely to have the biggest wake up call. Seems they have twitter and facebook sites to start with.

http://www.belgiumtheplaceto.be/

 

[maby]

Would they fine a boat for having marked diesel if the boat was non EU flagged, such as US or CI?

They have done so in the past.

 

[WFA]

You are missing the point. They have decided, since your visit, to crack down on red diesel. Many of us have been to Belgium in the past, but it's the now and the future that is the problem.

No. The only thing that has changed is the uncertainty Brexit is creating. Yachts have been fined for several years by Belgium authorities.

 

[NormanS]

No. The only thing that has changed is the uncertainty Brexit is creating. Yachts have been fined for several years by Belgium authorities.

Therefore it has nothing to do with Brexit. QED.

I can't believe that there have been more than 400 responses to such a simple thing.
JUST DO NOT GO THERE. Lots of foreign countries have different laws, if you don't like them, or are unwilling to comply with them, don't go.

Example:- The drink driving limits are much stricter in Scotland than they are in England. If you go to Scotland, and don't comply, you will be fined, banned, and possibly jailed. Do you (plural) find that too difficult to understand?

 

[Bru]

No. The only thing that has changed is the uncertainty Brexit is creating. Yachts have been fined for several years by Belgium authorities.

No they haven't. There was a spate of fines in around 2011/12 and then the Belgian authorities backed off and tacitly agreed a compromise (that they wouldn't fine boats that could produce receipts to show that full duty had been paid on UK purchased red diesel used for propulsion)

They have, in recent weeks, suddenly and without warning started fining boats for having even trace amounts of red diesel regardless of whether full duty has been paid or not

It's all very well people saying "just don't go there" but for South East coast based sailors this is a significant problem.

It effectively cuts off France from the Netherlands, ruling out a short cross channel hop between Ramsgate and whichever French port suits, and transiting direct from the UK to the Netherlands by the shortest route passes through Belgian waters so now a longer dogleg is the only way to avoid any risk of being fined

It's like having to avoid going anywhere near the Isle of Wight on a cruise down the English channel or having to stay away from the waters around Skye when cruising the Western Isles of Scotland

Our cruising options have effectively been cut in half

(PS. Am I alone in thinking that this thread should have remained in the East Coast Forum rather than being moved and merged onto the general forums?)

 

[Tomahawk]

I think this is an important issue that should be discussed everywhere. It can affect international visitors from the States.

 

[Daydream believer]

No they haven't. There was a spate of fines in around 2011/12 and then the Belgian authorities backed off and tacitly agreed a compromise (that they wouldn't fine boats that could produce receipts to show that full duty had been paid on UK purchased red diesel used for propulsion)

They have, in recent weeks, suddenly and without warning started fining boats for having even trace amounts of red diesel regardless of whether full duty has been paid or not

It's all very well people saying "just don't go there" but for South East coast based sailors this is a significant problem.

That comment is correct. Last year i was visited in Ostend by 2 customs officers & one of them, a female, smiled & said " I know that you cannot help having red diesel in your tanks so I think I had better not look".
I had white !!! But said nothing & did not show any receipts either.

As for the comment earlier about brexit- That is just a remoaner's red herring

Legally yachts arriving from the States can have red fuel as international law states that yachts arriving from outside the EU are exempt. ( According to the RYA) provided any fuel purchased thereafter is in accord with the country visited. So that would infer yachts arriving from the Channel Islands as well.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

That comment is correct. Last year i was visited in Ostend by 2 customs officers & one of them, a female, smiled & said " I know that you cannot help having red diesel in your tanks so I think I had better not look".
I had white !!! But said nothing & did not show any receipts either.

As for the comment earlier about brexit- That is just a remoaner's red herring

Legally yachts arriving from the States can have red fuel as international law states that yachts arriving from outside the EU are exempt. ( According to the RYA) provided any fuel purchased thereafter is in accord with the country visited. So that would infer yachts arriving from the Channel Islands as well.

Best tell that to the owners and captains of the two motor yachts that were fined recently, they are mentioned in this thread, I do in fact agree with what you say but it doesn't stop officials acting like demi gods. I sincerely hope that the ongoing court case as I understand is won and they are able to claim damages as well as a refund.

 

[WFA]

Therefore it has nothing to do with Brexit. QED.

I can't believe that there have been more than 400 responses to such a simple thing.
JUST DO NOT GO THERE. Lots of foreign countries have different laws, if you don't like them, or are unwilling to comply with them, don't go.

Example:- The drink driving limits are much stricter in Scotland than they are in England. If you go to Scotland, and don't comply, you will be fined, banned, and possibly jailed. Do you (plural) find that too difficult to understand?

No. I voted for Brexit then sailed to Belgium and Netherlands which as Bru says is the traditional cruising grounds for East coast sailors. Why are the Belgium's upping the anti - could it be to harden their input to Brexit negotiations? What have they to lose, access to UK fishing grounds perhaps. All this noise about red deisel is upsetting but the only reason we use it is because the marinas see no reason to change to white. Marinas sell fuel, where you use it is up to you. A friend who lives in Netherlands as an expat regularly sails to the far flung corners of UK and chooses to only fuel with white.
Forgetting the wider issue for just a moment, we are all creatures of habit and comfort. Demanding a right of passage with red deisel on a leisure cruise through foreign waters simply because some yachtsmen have fought long and hard to use fuel marked for commercial use across Europe is not a compelling argument. If our politicians had simply said change to white we would have voted for UKIP and inevitably changed to white.

 

[sailorman]

Best tell that to the owners and captains of the two motor yachts that were fined recently, they are mentioned in this thread, I do in fact agree with what you say but it doesn't stop officials acting like demi gods. I sincerely hope that the ongoing court case as I understand is won and they are able to claim damages as well as a refund.

6 yrs ago in Germany