raggies

[hlb]

Re: Rule 9b

Dont think I mentioned any channel in Falmouth. Only that I'd little stearage. However it's a good point.

Anyone new to Falmouth would be wise to stick to the channel up the Fal, as much of it is only a metre or two deap, according to the charts anyway. Who has the time to work out the present state of tide whilst trying to avoid a colision with some wayfarer??

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Rule 9b

I am afraid that I have been well beyond my home waters L'Escargot. It would seem that I have never come across you though as I have never ended up running anyone down /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Rule 9b

Don't forget the good old five blasts for "what the [deleted] are you up to?". At least it gets them to look up

Power gives way to sail is specifically rubbished in on of Ransome's books, either Secret Water or We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea, the point is well made relating to sail not impeding power where John is told to keep out of the way of a steamer who can only use the channel while Goblin can sail in the whole width of the river. That would have been about 1934! If dinghy sailors are still learning different then the instructors need a poke.

 

[Lakesailor]

Re: Rule 9b

[ QUOTE ]


...and as for putting a cat on the helm /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

At least it wouldn't leave a great sticky turd on the seat.

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

90-120' seems a little excessive for a turning circle ... I know I can turn about within the length of my RS400, just over the length with the yacht and RIB ...

The attitude of the few does seem to be "I have right of way" and that comes from both sides.
One thing I learnt from racing the RS800 (now sold cos I kept hitting the bottom and falling over!) was to keep a mental picture of the harbour - with the kite up (usually going over the 8 knot speed limit!) it is vital to know what boat movements are going on around and generally planned gybes to suit ... all helms should try this - it makes life a lot easier!

As for tacking near a larger vessel - then that surely depends on the situation - a racing helm might need that extra 20-30' to get round another obstical and in doing so will generally be good at judging distances and relative movements - they are used to racing in tight packs and racing within a few inches of other competitors so 5-10' away from a larger vessel isn't bad - as long as the skipper of that vessel is happy he has been seen!

As far as safety is concerned - you should aim to not get yourself into a situation where you have to crash stop. I do accept that sometimes a sailing boat will change course unexpectidly, but for the norm you can anticipate most of their movements - just sit back and watch for a minute, then approach to get past when appropriate. Or are you expecting the sailing vessel to anticipate your course as you dodge other vessels and keep out of your way?

There are places where I agree that it is silly to race in a narrow busy channel.
No boat has right of way - there is only Stand On Vessel ....

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Sticky turds

A few years ago I had a neighbour who's cat wouldn't crap in it's own garden, every morning when I watered my tomato plants before going to work I would find a nice fresh cat's turd underneath them. I didn't want it so I would leave it on the seat of his motorbike (the owners not the cats) as I left for work.

You should of heard him going on about "that bloody cat" and what he was going to do to it when he caught it on his motorbike. I was going to train the cat to sit on his bike by hiding bits of food under the tank but he moved before I could do it. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[hlb]

Re: Rule 9b

Racing about in a harbour is in my mind a bit silly anyway init!

Bit like kids tearing round Asda car park on skate boards and pretending that they should have presidence over the cars and old grannies in wheel chairs. Or the artic delivery driver having to manuvere round an Impromptu skate board race in the loading bay.

Course if we applied your rules across the land we would have kids on bikes and roller skates tearing hither and thither on roundabouts and motorways. Course all the POWER cars and trucks would have to give way to them or maybe go on the foot path or grass verge, which is not disimillar to shallow water, is it???

 

[Planty]

Re: Rule 9b

Can assure you at dead slow and without using one forward one reverse 90 - 120 is correct. I wish Sealine had put bigger rudders on too, but accept that's what the designer thought best.

Can make it spin in its own length but only if starting from dead stop. Can make it go sideways without thrusters, rock up and down along its own length, have even done synchronised manouvering with others at times, for a bit of a hoot, but all from dead stop. Think if put one engine from forward to reverse in one swift movemnt at say 6 knots the edc's might have something to say, like disengage, then I'm drifting!!

As I say only the skipper knows what their limitations are and others have to err on the side of caution, no matter how excessive they might think it is, I think keeping shipping best part of half the width of Southampton water, away from an oil tanker departing the terminal, is a little excessive but I ain't gonna argue!! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

Depends on the size of harbour ... we get races anywhere between 3 and 8 nautical miles (direct) and plan to take about 90 minutes for the average boat.

Your analagy of skateboarders holding an improtu race is a little off course ... however, I'll counter with this:
In your average housing estate you will have a number of kids - most of whom will play the prevailing sport of the season (usually football, but you get tennis and others as well) ...
For the most part, they consider that the road is a good place to play - espeically if it is quite a way from open spaces or green areas.
Do you, in your car, blast through at the prescribed speed limit? Or do you slow down on the approach and wait for them to clear the road?

Move this across to the water ....
Your busy exiting the harbour in your pride and joy ... and there is an optimist sailing in the channel ... these are very small dinghies usually sailed by a single child of around 8-12 ... do you expect this CHILD to understand that you are restricted in your ability to manuever and just run them down? No .. didn't think so ... you may well ask what where they doing there in the first place, but that isn't the point is it ... they are there - in your way ... or turn that around - you are there in their way ... who is right?

Again - why should you expect un-interupted passage through a harbour? Do you also expect your own private lane on the motorway?

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

I wasn't questioning ... just supprised!! I don't have much experience with larger mobos but have always assumed reasonable directional control - after all, you can squeeze these things into berths that I can't get in ...

 

[hlb]

Re: Rule 9b

Quite right. But when kids are playing football in the street, if a car comes along. They are expected to stop playing and let it pass. Or does the car driver have to wait till half time!! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

You seem determined not to understand this issue, fireball, and use one-off examples from the highways code - which is not really relevant.

Rule 9b says that a boat over 20m in a narrow channel should not be impeded. Yeah, that means that in the first instance, the smaller vessel regardless of sail or power must keep out its way. So, the kids on optimists or bigger kids on other dinghies should be told to keep out of the way of the big boats/steamers /whatever. They'd keep out ofd the way of a ferry, or a really massive boat wouldn't they? Well, the definition of big in this instance is "over 20 metres"

But of course, other rules mean that a safe speed bearing in mind the conditions and so on, and there's no excuse for a collision etc. and the optimists etc issue is especially valid. But many sailors (don't worry, you aren't alone) seem determined to lean on these as heavily as possible, playing dowen 9b - and they will succeed and should not come to grief. Knowledge of 9b will mean it will be safer for all.

 

[Its_Only_Money]

Re: Rule 9b

I've made the point on other threads that dinghy racing is an environment where they actively apply the col regs for tactical advantage eg when heading for the windward mark aiming to be the vessel arriving on starboard tack to force any on port to give way, this general attitude then follows some helms through their sailing careers into larger vessels of all persuasions, both mobo and yacht.....

 

[jfm]

mobos can manoeuvre, and selective recall

Um there are some odd facts flying about here. In many threads that have covered this sort of stuff before I think moboers have a bit unfairly claimed their boats are unmanoeuverable at very low speeds. A typical middle of road mobo such as Planty's Sealine frexample most certainly can be turned in lots less than a 90foot or whatever turning circle. It can be turned in its own length, made to move sideways as if it had bow and stern thrusters (even tho it doesn't have a stern thruster). He said it can only do those things from a dead stop. I disagree. If trudging along at say 6-8 knots it can instantly turn in much less than 90 or 100 foot circle. And anyway it can be brought to a dead stop in a very short length.

But moboers have to live with the fact (not that it's any big deal....) that many ragboat skippers seem to believe power always gives way to sail. I remeber frexample trudging along at about 7-8 knots off Cowes supervising a newbie at the helm on a straight course and a fast sailboat came from the distance toward my stern quarter from abaft of me on a beam reach at 9-10 knots and the wafi yelled at me to get out of the way. He probably knew the overtaking rule if we'd had a calm conversataion about it afterwards but in the heat of the moment he seemed only to recall selectively the power-gives-way rule

Anyway, this has been an enlightening thread re the specifics of the 9b rule and the >20m boat thing. There are some clear advantages to having a 20m boat

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

I do believe I understand the issue, but cannot recall ever dinghy racing in the path of a vessel that is >20m (that is over ~60 foot isn't it?).
The issue that seems to be raised is that some sub 20m powered vessels believe themselves to be constrained - but I would disagree that the vessel is constrained, but would be willing to understand that the helm may be constrained by his/her ability.

 

[hlb]

The Big Picture.

From the fly bridge of even a sub 20 metre boat the whole senario of umpteen racing dinghys can be observed.

Having raced sailing dinghys I am quite aware that observation is some what limited to occasional glimses as to what lies ahead.

The cruiser may well be aware, that in order to give way to your sail boat, he emmediatly puts some other sail boat in danger. Even by stopping. Turning might well no be an optio for fear of hitting others.

Back to the 20 metre arguement. Does it realy matter what size the other boat is, if your trying to forse him out of the channel and maybe into to shallow waters??

 

[fireball]

Re: The Big Picture.

Having raced sailing dinghys I am quite aware that observation is some what limited to occasional glimses as to what lies ahead.
Then I'm glad I don't race with you ... I like to know where the next mark is! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

We must be talking about completly different senarios where your in a much tighter channel than I was working on ...

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

It's a bit more than 60 feet but whatever. At least quite few of the skippers have demonstrated they know at least three occassions when sail gives way to power. INteresting to see if anyone in your club can do the same.

 

[duncan]

Re: The Big Picture.

I think hlb was making a reference to the somewhat limited forward visibility on many small sailing craft that's all.

As and when you get engulfed by a dingy fleet I think everyone can understand it when the helm of a large craft simply holds their course at a couple of knots and looks straight ahead, possibly with the odd shrug........I for one have certainly found myself unable to manoevre safely not because of the water depth but because any sudden movement will catch out one dingy somewhere!

All the above accepts that if possible you shouldn't get in that situation of course but it can happen!

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

I would hope they do know ... as we have a few YMs amoungst our fleet (no - I'm not included).
Interestingly though, it isn't the powerboats we have most issues with .. its other racing boats !!
There is one local by-law that all asymetics shall give way to all vessels - mainly cos when they are going down wind at umpteen knots nobody knows where they are going to end up ...