raggies

[gandy]

Re: Rule 9b

[ QUOTE ]
there's no requirement for the bigger vesel to be constrained "by draft" - merely to be constrained to the channel for safety. Which they are. So, sailing boats under 20m shouldn't impede big powerboats over 20m. Awful, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are they constrained, if not by their draft?

Tony S

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

as i said (and the rules says) for safety. In narrow channel frinstance, there could be all sorts of hazards outside the channel, and not just on the seabed. In a narrow channel a big boat would reasonably consider themselves confined to the channel. They wouldn't consider it safe outside the channel. Boats of any type under 20m, even under sail, shouldn't impede them. That's what the rule says anyway, sorry....

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Rule 9b

The wording is "can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." There are many channels where boats over 20m can navigate safely outside of the channel. You can't rely on this rule in those circumstances. Sorry.

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

okay, let's run with it. You are now deciding what safe for another skipper. And it seems that it's almost always safe for them. And if a sailyboat can decide when it's safe for any larger boat to navigate outside the narow channel....exactly what is 9b for?

Surely, it is precisley to avoid the situation where boats tack and tack again across a narrow channel with no regard for any other vessel. No? Say, across the ferries out of lymington?

 

[fireball]

Re: Rule 9b

This particular argument is pointless as it is generally those boats under 20m (on both sides) that get in each others way.
I don't believe a MOBO is any less maneurverable than say an RS400 sailing dinghy. In our part of the world it is unusual to get completely blocked off by racing boats, but even if it does happen we (in our yacht) will stand off or power through a suitable gap.

I dont see why a powered vessel shouldn't give a little - in the same way I accept that I sometimes have to suffer the wash they kick up

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

I didn't make these rules but yep, agreed - the "give and take" is covered under rule er whateverit is that says that says you can't quote a rule and say "and THAT's why i crashed into him!" - you must take avoiding action.

I simply raised this cos somewhere further up the thread someone implied that a sailing boat always had right of way in a channel, and notwithstanding your comments - they don't have the same unequiviocal right of way as on open water. In fact, quite the reverse.

9b is clear that boats under 20m including sailing vessels must not impede a larger vessel constrained to a narrow channel. And, if there's a buoyed dreddged channel, it's reasonable to assume that they would be confined to that channel - as wd probably the sailing vessel too. For the avoidance of doubt, the vessel over 20m shoud not be impeded.

 

[duncan]

Re: Rule 9b

absolutely mr fireball.

ever so slight thread drift produces an accurate statement but opens it up to interpretation beyond it's intentions...

take a tanker in travelling in Southampton Water. Ignoring the local byelaws for a minute (which effectively reinforce the col regs here though) - in open water he gives way to a craft under sail, including a dingy....., but in such a 'channnel' they give way to him. Scaleing this down to a 45ft powered craft in a narrow channel and the same thing can apply however the option to reduce speed/stop (accepting that loss of steerage way in a cross wind etc would be a problem) normally still exist for such craft where they don't for larger craft in the same way. I guess a reasonable guideline could be that the width of the channel is less than twice the length of the vessel for example?
Look at this way - the col regs were generally designed around the ability of vessels to manoevre in certain circumstances in open water. exceptions such as this come into play when the normal options become restricted in some way.
finally I don't believe they should ever be used as trump cards by anyone - standing on the flybridge shouting for people to get out of the way because you are in a channel can be as offensive as those screams of starboard (racing excepted as it's no fun if you can't scream starboard and water once each in a race... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) , power gives way to sail (from vessels technically overtaking) etc that plague our restricted waters.

I go on the water for peace and am happier to go out of my way for a fellow boater than letting a BMW pull out anyday!

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Rule 9b

OK, I'll run too. No I am not deciding what is safe for another skipper but it is reasonable to expect a certain level of competence and anticipate their actions up to that level of competence.

I wasn't thinking as big as ferries but we will go with it. Lymington isn't a good example as it is quite clear cut there and there is not a lot of room outside of the channel (although I have seen vessels just over the 20m+ limit operate "safely" outside of the channel to allow the ferry through).

We will stay with Wightlink and let's move down to Wootton where it is not so clear cut. Have a look at this picture:

There is a narrow channel which the right hand ferry is going to pass down. If he mowed down that yacht ahead of him, do you think he could rely on 9b when the left hand ferry shows that he could navigate safely and unconstrained by draft outside of the channel? Not so clear cut is it?

Likewise 20m and 30m powerboats can operate quite safely outside of the channel in significant stretches of Southampton Water, the channel is laid for deeper draught boats.

9b does not give any vessels over 20m carte blanche to do in every channel as they see fit, it isn't one size fits all - what applies to 77m ferry doesn't necessarily apply to a 23m powerboat. It is like the power gives way to sail rule, every situation is different and other rules apply as well and must be read in conjunction with it.

(And under 20m doesn't just apply to sailyboats - it also applies to motorboaties /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

[duncan]

Re: Rule 9b

all of the rules are about what should happen and there's no carte blanche anywhere - in fact the rules specifically say no carteblalnche when they say that if what should happen isn't avoid collision some other way!

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

yes, oh yes. But this isn't deny the existence of rule 9b as a starting point in a narrow channel.

 

[duncan]

Re: Rule 9b

absolutely not - how can anyone deny the actual existence of a written rule anyway?.... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

it is of course the application (by the skipper as you highlight) that invites differing views.

there was an interesting court case (always unfortunate) around this recently involving a fishing boat (not actually fishing) another boat and a narrow entrance channel I think. It is a good case as it illustrates things from the other perspective - ie I think he was found to be in the wrong in his actions as they were before he was actually in the channel and there was a sub plot that he was being bloody minded or soething like that. On MAIB maybe?

 

[gandy]

Re: Rule 9b

[ QUOTE ]
okay, let's run with it. You are now deciding what safe for another skipper.
...

[/ QUOTE ]
But the rules (9b and 9d) specifically apply when the "other" vessel can't operate safely outside the channel. How can you judge whether they apply without making assumption about what is safe for the other skipper? Or are you saying that because he's in the at all channel it must be assumed that he can't operate safely outside it?

Tony S

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

the rules speak to both parties. The larger (say) power boat must give way if he can operate outsdie the channel. However, many channels are dredged/tidal, so unsafe for any boat other than a dinghy to navigate outside. The larger boat can't be "arsey" so to speak.

In these circumstances, yes, if the larger boat is in the channel, doesn't move outside, and reasonably wdn't be expected to move outside, then the onus is upon any boat under20m boat not to impede a "larger vessel", and that definition of larger vessel is over 20m, and not "jeez, it's a blimmin big steel ferry!" size.

Of course, if (as is extremely extremely likely) the sailing boat doesn't make any move to "not impede" as per definitions, then other rules come into play involving avoiding collisions anyway regadless of muttering "power gives way to sail" saily types only knowing a few rules and esp NOT knowing rule 9b cos it "doesn't seem right" . Cue shaking fists from sailing boat and so on...

 

[hlb]

Re: Rule 9b

So you sat in yer wayfarer. Is going to dictate the passage plans of sea going Ym's etc. QE2's and the rest of us!! God save our souls! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Rule 9b

But don't forget that there are also sailing boats that are over 20m in length and then motorboaties under 20m have to get out of their way - even if it does go against the grain because they think they are more important and all that stuff about power giving way to sail is out of date these days. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(You'll be saying because you are over 20m you've got a 1000m exclusion Zone coming through Cowes Roads next! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

 

[tcm]

Re: Rule 9b

ah well, if both over 20m then rule 9b would not apply, of course. Hey, it's not about "more important" - it's just about who does what first. As i think you well know!

I was actually v nearly mown down by container ship outside cowes last year, dozing like a twit, blimmin pilot boat came along and told me over loudhauiler to move sharpish but er I only had one engine. Two days later the pilot boat found me at saxon wharf and sort of interviewed me, ever so nicely mind, to see if i knew what a clot i had been. I sort of passed the "yes, i know i shdn't hve been there" test, i think. Handily, the engien was being made ready to be hauled ashore so he understood my uselessness at not scorching off out of the way much more quickly than i did!...

 

[tcm]

Bloodymindedness colreg rule

there's an interesting and useful idea - a rule outlawing being bloodyminded or arsey about the other rules. You shd suggest it to IMO and slap in an extra para somehwere early on, i reckon. Or er is it there already?

 

[fireball]

Re: Bloodymindedness colreg rule

Not a reply to TCM here ... but a general observation ...

The problem with both parties is they assume the right to un-interupted passage through the same water.

As someone who races dinghies and sails a yacht I do understand the problem from both sides - although I do gather that I can go slower in the yacht without loosing control ....

Recently I have had reason to call to a dinghy whilst motorsailing - I was (as far as I was concerned) navigating in a confined channel - motoring close into the wind with just the main up - then a bunch of 420s that were milling around all popped their kites and started heading across my bow - all this in quite a bit of swell and strong wind (~20-25knts (apparently!)) - most of the 420s appeared to have seen me and the other boats doing similar courses and were avoiding us, one though hadn't looked - a quick call of his sail number "420 12345" had his head out of his *rse and he sharply rounded up to avoid me ...
Quite why they popped their kites up at that moment I'm not sure - with the presense of a RIB I can only assume they were training ...

Had I had less draft or not had my main up I could've probably done a 360 and avoided the situation completely ...

It just goes to show that vigulance on all sides is nessersary along with an assumption that everyone else on the water is stupid and won't get out of your way.

Anyway ... thinking about it - if you are motoring up a channel - following a sailing vessel then as overtaking vessel you have to give way ... (assuming you don't have a vessel over 20m!)

I've always suggested that if your on collision course you steer to the stern of the other vessel.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Rule 9b

Scenario -

I am doing a long coastal voyage in my large very nicely kept power boat and weather or mechanical issues, maybe crew accident or something force me to unexpectedly take refuge in some little port. Of course I have no charts for that port (and indeed there may not be any large scale ones for that small port) so I follow the channel in knowing from a radio call or the charts I do have that there is at least enough depth in that.

So in I go and lo and behold some manky little bilge keeler makes a decision for me, without me knowing it, that as I could in his view navigate safely outside of the channel that he is going to sail across me or cross the channel ahead of me as the stand on boat forcing me to take evasive action out of the channel.

What would you do? Frankly, I would run him down, even if I had to replace his boat for him in the end it would probably cost less than a paint job for my own vessel - but I suspect that I would be found to be in the right.

I sail a yacht myself but think it is dismaying seeing the arrogant attitudes of some yachtsmen on these forums over the collision regulations.

John

 

[l'escargot]

Re: Rule 9b

[ QUOTE ]
I sail a yacht myself but think it is dismaying seeing the arrogant attitudes of some yachtsmen on these forums over the collision regulations.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think your post is a good example of them John. Anyone who says that they would run down another boat because of their own lack of knowledge isn't really fit to be on the helm.

In the circumstances you give you would not be found "to be in the right" under the existing Colregs.

If you want to "Troll" you will have to try harder than that /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif