TSB240
Well-known member
I could be wrong, but I think the Pandora came in fin or lift, no twin keel option there either./QUOTE]
You are!
See Here
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=206355
OK I admit it I made a mistake !
- Thread starter wytco0
- Start date
Seajet
...
Oh well; they always made much of their racing pretensions...
onesea
Well-known member
OK firstly vested intrest I have one for sale...
But no one has promoted the trident 24.
Bilge Keel as I want to base it in North Norfolk and explore the area.
Triple Keel or centreboard
Something that be sailed single handed by a novice.
Ok I am not a novice and do, but yes a novice could easily.
On-board engine
Mine does not but they are on the market with them..
Would prefer a sea toilet
Most have them
Big enough for 2 people to sleep on for a week or so at a time.
Use forward bunks as your wardrobe/ storage sleep/ live in main cabin. I have done it many times
Cheap, under £10k preferably under £5k
Certainly under 10k and probably 5k for a good one.
All box's ticket plus...
Sailing whys they out sail Pagents and Centaurs do not leave you behind and can be out sailed... I have out sailed Bavaria 34's and a 38 in a 7
they can be quite nippy but up wind with tripple keel that's a weak point.
They are also undoubted pretty boats, a boat to be proud of.
I have had one for 6 years (and spent up to 10 days on her in one trip) am only selling to go bigger.. My partner is wanting us to keep 2 boats she does not want to see her go!
Below link is good source of information:
http://www.trident24.com/trident-info.html
Also if your looking at sailing abilities, this might serve as a good guide:
http://www.byronsoftware.org.uk/bycn/byboat.htm
But no one has promoted the trident 24.
Bilge Keel as I want to base it in North Norfolk and explore the area.
Triple Keel or centreboard
Something that be sailed single handed by a novice.
Ok I am not a novice and do, but yes a novice could easily.
On-board engine
Mine does not but they are on the market with them..
Would prefer a sea toilet
Most have them
Big enough for 2 people to sleep on for a week or so at a time.
Use forward bunks as your wardrobe/ storage sleep/ live in main cabin. I have done it many times
Cheap, under £10k preferably under £5k
Certainly under 10k and probably 5k for a good one.
All box's ticket plus...
Sailing whys they out sail Pagents and Centaurs do not leave you behind and can be out sailed... I have out sailed Bavaria 34's and a 38 in a 7
they can be quite nippy but up wind with tripple keel that's a weak point.They are also undoubted pretty boats, a boat to be proud of.
I have had one for 6 years (and spent up to 10 days on her in one trip) am only selling to go bigger.. My partner is wanting us to keep 2 boats she does not want to see her go!
Below link is good source of information:
http://www.trident24.com/trident-info.html
Also if your looking at sailing abilities, this might serve as a good guide:
http://www.byronsoftware.org.uk/bycn/byboat.htm
Haven't-a-Clue
New member
True but I haven't rejected anything yet and I am still looking at additional options. As the winner of the prize for the shortest male in the forum contest the lack of headroom in the Sadler isn't a huge problem for me
Just back from a drive up to Wells to see what boats are there, unfortunately not many boats say what make and model they are on the outside and I am not a fully qualified boat spotter. I caught a glimpse of the slug at its winter grazing grounds and saw a lovely Westerley Fulmar in the yard, too big and expensive for me but looked like a very nice bilge keeler.
I will definitely investigate the Pageants thanks for the pointer.
Anyone know anything about the Colvic Sailer 26 there is one for sale in East Anglia that might be worth an inspection.
Funny you should ask, 'cos guess what I has got....yup.
I have looked at that one (via the internet) and she seems in good nick cosmetically. If she is as reliable mechanically as my auld tub, she'd be well worth a look in person, I'd say. Can't remember what the asking price was, but it seemed reasonable, bearing in mind that you'd offer below that anyway. I have to say that I feel very safe in mine and while she's no sparkling performer, you might be pleasantly surprised on a beam reach if SLIGHTLY(!) overcanvassed...........well I was and she wasn't the handful I'd been expecting. Close to the wind is not her forte and leeway can be considerable due to the non-splayed keels (being of the vertical encapsulated type). On the other hand, no leaks from the keel-to-hull joints 'cos there ain't any and she takes the ground NO problem. Make sure you've got a decent engine and enjoy learning to sail....I did.
Searush
New member
Most Colvics were sold as hulls for home completion so that may be an issue if sloppily done. They are built like a brick outhouse tho so not a brilliant performer. I prefer cast keels for taking the ground as the an take an awful lot of pounding if you get it wrong. Encapsulated keels can wear down or crack if you make a mistake &hit something hard. You may not spot the water weeping in, but be assured that the ballast will & it will rust & expand. That is then an even harder job to fix than flexy keels.
Incidentally Centaur keel problems are restricted to the early boats & most should have been reinforced. The problems don't happen if drying onto hard sand or mud, it is sinking into soft mud that causes the problems. The keels are splayed to improve sailing capability, but sinking into & being pulled out of deep mud applies a lot of lateral force on the keels, alternatively forcing them out & sucking them in - hence the flexing.
As others have already said, I wouldn't get too hung up on specific models, just wander around yards, moorings, harbours & marinas & see what you like the look of. Chat to the owners if you can - even if a boat isn't for sale. There probably isn't an owner in the land that won't invite you aboard if you admire his boat & say you are looking for something like it. I have shown a few around SR in my time & made a few friends in the process.
One final thing, see if you can get an old copy of Bristows Book of Yachts for 1970-ish that has a simple outline drawings/ photos/ summary of almost every boat in production at the time. I used it to help me focus on what might suit my needs when I was looking 25 years ago.
Incidentally Centaur keel problems are restricted to the early boats & most should have been reinforced. The problems don't happen if drying onto hard sand or mud, it is sinking into soft mud that causes the problems. The keels are splayed to improve sailing capability, but sinking into & being pulled out of deep mud applies a lot of lateral force on the keels, alternatively forcing them out & sucking them in - hence the flexing.
As others have already said, I wouldn't get too hung up on specific models, just wander around yards, moorings, harbours & marinas & see what you like the look of. Chat to the owners if you can - even if a boat isn't for sale. There probably isn't an owner in the land that won't invite you aboard if you admire his boat & say you are looking for something like it.
I have shown a few around SR in my time & made a few friends in the process.One final thing, see if you can get an old copy of Bristows Book of Yachts for 1970-ish that has a simple outline drawings/ photos/ summary of almost every boat in production at the time. I used it to help me focus on what might suit my needs when I was looking 25 years ago.
Last edited:
LadyInBed
Well-known member
If you have not got one, a copy of the good yacht guide is very helpful.
Seajet
...
Searush,
your description of the forces on splayed keels in & out of mud is exactly what I go on about; however my Father had a late model Centaur - no. 2187 - and even with relatively massive internal reinforcing at the keels ( lots of very heavily glassed in webs ) and using a spanner with an extension several feet long, the keels did still leak very slightly.
That was indeed on a soft mud mooring; another - early - Centaur at the club, also owned by an engineer and he said similarly reinforced though I never actually saw it inside, had a slight gap open up at the keel join leading edge whenever she was in the hoist.
It was more irritating than anything else, not something to worry about.
your description of the forces on splayed keels in & out of mud is exactly what I go on about; however my Father had a late model Centaur - no. 2187 - and even with relatively massive internal reinforcing at the keels ( lots of very heavily glassed in webs ) and using a spanner with an extension several feet long, the keels did still leak very slightly.
That was indeed on a soft mud mooring; another - early - Centaur at the club, also owned by an engineer and he said similarly reinforced though I never actually saw it inside, had a slight gap open up at the keel join leading edge whenever she was in the hoist.
It was more irritating than anything else, not something to worry about.
wytco0
New member
I am adding Britich Hunter Horizon 26 to the list, I dont know anything about them but they look noce and seem to make good use of space, problem, they are above my price range.
Comments?
Comments?
wytco0
New member
Looking at one of these on Fraday.
tom_sail
New member
I own one great little boats. Loads of room and fairly good performance. A lot of boat for your money. I'm currently having a bit of trouble with mine at the moment around the bilge is a crack, between the hull and an inner moulding. Although I'm confident this is a one off. They are very well built, think I have just been unlucky or the surveyor didn't notice it
Most are home built kits ours is certainly so headlining looks a bit tatty. If you can find a factory built one, it'll be perfect
I wasn't to fussy and just wanted to get on the water for as cheap as possible. Reef early and they are good boats a tad tender in upper 20 knots.
wytco0
New member
Added a couple more comments to first post and another boat.
So far I have been to see and inspect 3 boats of these 2 are still possibles.
Still looking for others for sale in the Norfolk/Suffolk area.
I have also seen but not inspected a few other boats, there was a nice looking 32 foot Moody Bilge keeler with wheelhouse, too big and complex (and expensive) for me. Also a couple of motor sailers (Nauticat 33 and Island Plastics 24) For some reason I like these boats although no good for me. Their profile gives a lot more usable space than a pure sailboat of the same size.
So far I have been to see and inspect 3 boats of these 2 are still possibles.
Still looking for others for sale in the Norfolk/Suffolk area.
I have also seen but not inspected a few other boats, there was a nice looking 32 foot Moody Bilge keeler with wheelhouse, too big and complex (and expensive) for me. Also a couple of motor sailers (Nauticat 33 and Island Plastics 24) For some reason I like these boats although no good for me. Their profile gives a lot more usable space than a pure sailboat of the same size.
graham
Well-known member
I could be wrong, but I think the Pandora came in fin or lift, no twin keel option there either./QUOTE]
You are!
See Here
http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=206355
Pandoras definitely came in Bilge Keel version.Sailed in company with when we had a Hurley 22 bilge. we dried out on several beaches next to each other.It was faster than the Hurley but not such a good sea boat in my opinion.
wytco0
New member
Lets talk about Keels
Today I had the opportunity to walk around a number of boats on hard standings in Lowestoft and Southwold and see some keels close up.
Although I am not an engineer I do like engineering elegance, looking at the different designs today some seem elegant and other far less so, I kow all engineering solutions are compromises but I was still surprised at the solutions I saw. I looked closely at a Leisure 27 and Moody 32 a Dragonfly (approx 28 foot), several Westerley Centuers and a Gibsea 262.
From a previous time when I used to play with aircraft I know a little about aerodynamics and assuming that similar fluid dynamics apply to boats I made the following mental notes:
I wasn't able to see inside any of these boats but I would expect that the Gibsea would suffer some loss of internal space because of the lifting keel.
Its al very well looking at keels sitting on the ground but in reality they are designed to work in a dynamic environment at different speeds and angles I don't know enough about them to know about the efficiencies when sailing and I dont know how they perform either. So if you had to decide which solution would you go for? which offers the best compromise.
Although I think they will both be outside of my price range I am going to add both the Gibsea and the Leisure to my list.
Today I had the opportunity to walk around a number of boats on hard standings in Lowestoft and Southwold and see some keels close up.
Although I am not an engineer I do like engineering elegance, looking at the different designs today some seem elegant and other far less so, I kow all engineering solutions are compromises but I was still surprised at the solutions I saw. I looked closely at a Leisure 27 and Moody 32 a Dragonfly (approx 28 foot), several Westerley Centuers and a Gibsea 262.
From a previous time when I used to play with aircraft I know a little about aerodynamics and assuming that similar fluid dynamics apply to boats I made the following mental notes:
- Leisure 27 seemed to be the mostly elegant solution I saw, it had a sail-drive which looked as though it was retractable (maybe they all are?) and the keels were fairly small and neatly fitted to the hull.
- Moody also seemed neat and efficient slightly less so that the Leisure mainly due to the propeller system which would be producing drag when not powered.
- Westerleys keels were also fairly tidy but seemed to be bolted to stubs on the hull and seemed less neat and tidy.
- The Dragonfly is the odd one out here as its a retractable Trimaran but seeing it close up I was surprised at how neatly it was engineered, the wings were folded in and the boat was surprisingly small.
- Gibsea 262 was a lifting keels and sat level on the ground. the hull has a slightly bulbous strengthening which seemed designed to allow the boat to sit flat but which I think would affect the ultimate efficiency of the hull.
I wasn't able to see inside any of these boats but I would expect that the Gibsea would suffer some loss of internal space because of the lifting keel.
Its al very well looking at keels sitting on the ground but in reality they are designed to work in a dynamic environment at different speeds and angles I don't know enough about them to know about the efficiencies when sailing and I dont know how they perform either. So if you had to decide which solution would you go for? which offers the best compromise.
Although I think they will both be outside of my price range I am going to add both the Gibsea and the Leisure to my list.
Tranona
Well-known member
Saildrives are very much fixed. On many smaller boats outboards are used in a well and can often be withdrawn when not being used to reduce drag.
The stern gear type you saw on the Moody (P bracket type) is very common, as is a shaft log like the ones used on Centaurs.
They all create drag but that is the price you pay for effective propulsion under power. Drag can be significantly reduced with folding or feathering propellers - but you won't see many in the sort of boat you are looking at because they are expensive relative to the value of the boat.
BrianH
Active member
No, they are fixed. I must admit to a prejudice against saildrive; they reached critical mass because they benefited the builder rather than the buyer. From design to installation much was simplified with a single, integrated unit to just drop in, leaving the owner to worry about that big hole and its seal to be regularly changed.
Not so long ago I was offered my dream boat (at that time), a HR31, for a very attractive price. I walked away because it was a saildrive model.
wytco0
New member
Tranona and Barnac1e, thanks for the saildrive info, I must do some more reasearch. As always with engineering they seem to have some benefits and some downsides.
chewi
Active member
wytco0
New member
Yesterday I went for a 2nd viewing of a boat in Norfolk and today viewed a Mirage 28.
I like the Mirage a lot but I think its probably going to be too much for me a a novice as I expect to spend a lot of time sailing short handed.
Nothing decided yet but learning a lot from viewing boats although I have only done detailed viewings of 4. Amazing how much you learn taking to owners and walking through yards.
Also added a few more comments in post 1.
I like the Mirage a lot but I think its probably going to be too much for me a a novice as I expect to spend a lot of time sailing short handed.
Nothing decided yet but learning a lot from viewing boats although I have only done detailed viewings of 4. Amazing how much you learn taking to owners and walking through yards.
Also added a few more comments in post 1.
Searush
New member
I think I suggested that at the start of the thread! But focus on non-selling owners of similar boats. Selling owners are not necessarily that reliable & may simply tell you what they think you want to hear.
caerolusmagnus
New member
Learning curve
Hello Wytco
Here are a few comments.
It is a good idea to get some basic sailing skills in a smaller boat. A bilge-keeler would be useful for learning in quiet waters but not very suitable for coastal offshore sailing. Have a look at Roger Oliver’s book ‘Sailing around the UK and Ireland’; he sails a Sadler 25 which is more suitable for coastal offshore and his passage planning is excellent. Suggest you book into a week of RYA competent crew course and you will learn in a week more than a year by yourself.
I sailed a Contessa 32 (designed by Sadler) for ten years; an excellent seaboat and with its long overhangs, fine entry, deep high ballast ratio fin keel and skeg rudder is a real confidence builder. As with all boats of that era, they are overbuilt and because they are seaboats first, their accommodation space is smaller. The ‘modern’ boat with no overhangs and high freeboard is build around the accommodation and they are not such good seaboats. You decide by experience what suits you.
I now have an Ohlson 38 I am renovating; like a stretched Contessa and much admired by many who see her but smaller inside than the ‘modern’; just big enough to have more space below for 1-2 persons.
Have fun!
Hello Wytco
Here are a few comments.
It is a good idea to get some basic sailing skills in a smaller boat. A bilge-keeler would be useful for learning in quiet waters but not very suitable for coastal offshore sailing. Have a look at Roger Oliver’s book ‘Sailing around the UK and Ireland’; he sails a Sadler 25 which is more suitable for coastal offshore and his passage planning is excellent. Suggest you book into a week of RYA competent crew course and you will learn in a week more than a year by yourself.
I sailed a Contessa 32 (designed by Sadler) for ten years; an excellent seaboat and with its long overhangs, fine entry, deep high ballast ratio fin keel and skeg rudder is a real confidence builder. As with all boats of that era, they are overbuilt and because they are seaboats first, their accommodation space is smaller. The ‘modern’ boat with no overhangs and high freeboard is build around the accommodation and they are not such good seaboats. You decide by experience what suits you.
I now have an Ohlson 38 I am renovating; like a stretched Contessa and much admired by many who see her but smaller inside than the ‘modern’; just big enough to have more space below for 1-2 persons.
Have fun!
