OK I admit it I made a mistake !

[wytco0]

Update

Still looking and still learning, seen lots of boats and spoken to many helpful owners and a few unhelpful owners.

I still haven't seen anything that I want to buy but some things are becoming clear, I will buy something that's ideal for Norfolk and accept that this will be a compromise as far as my longer distance ambitions are concerned and I will buy a bilge keeled boat.

At least for the time being I have ended my flirtation with motor sailors although I would be tempted by a nice bilge keeled LM were they not so expensive.

I have firmed up on size in the 25-28 foot range and I want a new or recent engine. I have also decided to increase my maximum budget to about £15k for something in great condition with a new engine.

I am spending this summer (!!) out on the water a but in my inflatable canoe, the canoe is proving a very useful way of meeting owners and looking at boats in moorings and marinas, far better that trying to do it from the land. I can carry the canoe in my landrover and if I see soemthing interesting I can be on the water in about 15 minutes.

 

[penfold]

Another couple of suggestions to look at; Kingfishers are(I think) bilgekeeled, also Macwesters of various kinds. Even the larger Macwesters should be within your budget.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Anyone can take a boat out onto the water without any kind of training or knowledge this makes them a danger to themselves but more importantly a danger to others on the water.

Maybe you taught yourself MOB drills, emergency procedures, rescue by lifeboat or helicopter, fire safety, IRPCS, using a VHF, shipping forecasts, principles of weather, maritime bouyage systems, passage planning, vessel lights and shapes. You are definitely the type of person I say “WTF is he doing?” and it worries me. Anyway let me know what waters you are sailing in so that I can stay well away.

Qualifications should be mandatory just like a car. It may help to bring insurance premiums down.

What a load of utter carp!........Like Searush, I have been sailing for nigh on 50 years, my first lessons were aboard a 57 foot schooner, well not lessons exactly, but more like jump to it you silly fecker!! Never had a formal lesson in me life, nor a qualification, nor have I had reason to call on the RNLI. People with your attitude make me want to throw up!

 

[Chrusty 1]

You are talking like a pillock, abusing people like that.

What courses did Ransome take, or Shane Acton, were the Hiscocks RYA trained, or Tilman? What is this stupid obsession with abrogating all responsibility for one's own safety by "taking courses?"

Watch some of Dylan's videos & see how he handles that small boat almost entirely under sail & often with a camera in hand - Dylan is self taught too. In my experience the biggest, most self-opinionated twots are often the know-it-alls "trained by the RYA". A piece of paper doesn't make you right, or even safe - vigilance, observation & understanding make you safe, not a silly bit of paper from the RYA.

On the other hand I happen to know quite a few good sailors that happen to hold RYA quals, but they are not good sailors just because they have the certificate.

Incidentally, it isn't hard to learn about all the stuff you talk about, there are plenty of books available & trying stuff out on your own boat is 10x better than classroom work. Please take your head out of your bum & have a good look around at the people who have bits of paper & those who have been sailing safely for years without.

Wooooooo-Hooooooooooo! good speech!

 

[reginaldon]

Wooooooo-Hooooooooooo! good speech!

With you both! - enthusiasm and reading oneself in, goes a long long way. We've all read of the massive faux pas made by some of the highly qualified.
Shane Acton even became a pilot at one stage without a single course.

 

[Blueboatman]

Just to bring a 'little' balance in: The post at which everyone is hurling their sticks was made on the 11th of January, like...

 

[Chrusty 1]

Just to bring a 'little' balance in: The post at which everyone is hurling their sticks was made on the 11th of January, like...

Doh!

 

[Searush]

Just to bring a 'little' balance in: The post at which everyone is hurling their sticks was made on the 11th of January, like...

Err, as was my riposte.

 

[Seajet]

My little thoughts as this has been raised again;

I learned everything from experienced friends, reading, night school nav'( much later ) and doing it; I only got a YM ticket as the course was paid for by someone else, and I mistakenly thought I might like to be a cruiser instructor.

I did have 1 week dinghy lessons on school trips when a boy, but already had a dinghy by then.

I think Arthur Ransome taught me to begin with, like thousands of others.

I know a chum who's frankly a complete novice, but he has plenty of brains to realise that, limit himself a bit, and ask the right questions.

It's the arrogant ' I know it all ' condition which gets people into trouble, and we've all seen yachtmasters cock things up, sometimes with serious results, as well as novices.

An enquiring mind and taking the time to read is a pretty good basis I think; I was in my 20's before it dawned on me how much I don't know !

 

[Kukri]

A centreboarder is an elegant solution - sails better than a bilge keeler and is also better at getting off when you get on, so to speak. the downside is that the centreboard slot may get clogged with dry mud or worse with pebbles so you need to be able to get a flat bar down either side of the board to clear it.

 

[Searush]

A centreboarder is an elegant solution - sails better than a bilge keeler and is also better at getting off when you get on, so to speak. the downside is that the centreboard slot may get clogged with dry mud or worse with pebbles so you need to be able to get a flat bar down either side of the board to clear it.

I have heard that if you leave it just below the keel, it will lift & drop with its own weight as you dry out & refloat. I am told that this small amount of movement is often enough to prevent blockages.

No experience of this, but I have seen an Elizabethan 24 with a clogged plate after drying out on mud for a few weeks unattended. It was beached on a sandbank & half a dozen mates were trying to poke things up the centreboard to free it. They didn't succeed.

 

[wotayottie]

To the OP! The question you ask is a pointless one since every boat known to man has its advocates so all you will get in reply is people's individual prejudices. 14 pages of them so far.

Best thing you can do is to sit on your wallet for a couple of ye3ars and join a club, get friendly with members, sail on their boats and haunt their boatyard. It will take a year or maybe two for you to build up your own likes and dislikes and to decide what really suits you. Currently you are the second hand boat salesman's ideal customer - someone who hasnt a clue what he's looking at but has monbey burning a hole in his pocket.

Only other recommendation I can make is to buy something that is popular and therefore pricey rather than something that is cheap and unpopular since for sure you will want to change it at some point. The most popular makes that come into your price bracket are Westerly, Moody, Sadler and Hunter. There is always a market for decent condition boats of those makes assuming they arent completely outdated.

 

[Chrusty 1]

I have heard that if you leave it just below the keel, it will lift & drop with its own weight as you dry out & refloat. I am told that this small amount of movement is often enough to prevent blockages.

No experience of this, but I have seen an Elizabethan 24 with a clogged plate after drying out on mud for a few weeks unattended. It was beached on a sandbank & half a dozen mates were trying to poke things up the centreboard to free it. They didn't succeed.

It's common practice around here Steve, just let the swing / drop keel hang a couple of inches, and when the boat takes the ground the keel is pushed up into the box, and when she comes afloat, it slowly drops the couple of inches, usually keeps thing clear. On my Seal, and on Seajet's Anderson, there is a bulb on the bottom end of the keel, and in the Seals case this seals, (ho-ho) the slot. I think it does on the Anderson, but I aint sure.

 

[Chrusty 1]

To the OP! The question you ask is a pointless one since every boat known to man has its advocates so all you will get in reply is people's individual prejudices. 14 pages of them so far.

Best thing you can do is to sit on your wallet for a couple of ye3ars and join a club, get friendly with members, sail on their boats and haunt their boatyard. It will take a year or maybe two for you to build up your own likes and dislikes and to decide what really suits you. Currently you are the second hand boat salesman's ideal customer - someone who hasnt a clue what he's looking at but has monbey burning a hole in his pocket.

Only other recommendation I can make is to buy something that is popular and therefore pricey rather than something that is cheap and unpopular since for sure you will want to change it at some point. The most popular makes that come into your price bracket are Westerly, Moody, Sadler and Hunter. There is always a market for decent condition boats of those makes assuming they arent completely outdated.

I don't think they are prejudices, just opinions, and isn't that what the OP asked for? As for joining a club, well no, I wouldn't recommend that at all, all he will get is club members prejudices ............Ooooops sorry, opinions! Also, no need to buy anything pricey, there is a healthy market down at the lower end of the price range, it's the pricey stuff that that is hanging at the moment. You do have some fairly rarified ideas sometimes Mr, Yottie.

 

[wytco0]

To the OP! The question you ask is a pointless one since every boat known to man has its advocates so all you will get in reply is people's individual prejudices. 14 pages of them so far..

Thanks for your thoughts but I disagree the list has been very useful and gave me a good idea of where to start looking.

Best thing you can do is to sit on your wallet for a couple of ye3ars and join a club, get friendly with members, sail on their boats and haunt their boatyard. It will take a year or maybe two for you to build up your own likes and dislikes and to decide what really suits you. Currently you are the second hand boat salesman's ideal customer - someone who hasnt a clue what he's looking at but has monbey burning a hole in his pocket.

I haven't rushed into anything I have been looking for nearly 2 years and I think its unlikely that I will buy this year. I am certainly not a salesman's ideal customer, I insist on far more information than they like giving and I refuse to be rushed into anything, One of the reasons I don't post much is that people assume that I am an an idiot unable to make sensible decisions rather than someone just asking more knowledgeable people for advice.

 

[wytco0]

A centreboarder is an elegant solution - sails better than a bilge keeler and is also better at getting off when you get on, so to speak. the downside is that the centreboard slot may get clogged with dry mud or worse with pebbles so you need to be able to get a flat bar down either side of the board to clear it.

I have looked at a couple of yachts in this category but as I plan to sail in north Norfolk and often dry out on sand or mud I have decided a simple bilge is more suitable for me, certainly most of the north Norfolk boats I see have bilge keels.

 

[wytco0]

...
I know a chum who's frankly a complete novice, but he has plenty of brains to realise that, limit himself a bit, and ask the right questions.!

I hope I am one of these.

... It's the arrogant ' I know it all ' condition which gets people into trouble, and we've all seen yachtmasters cock things up, sometimes with serious results, as well as novices.!

And not one of these

.An enquiring mind and taking the time to read is a pretty good basis I think; I was in my 20's before it dawned on me how much I don't know !

Well said that man, this is my preferred approach in everything I do.

 

[Seajet]

It's common practice around here Steve, just let the swing / drop keel hang a couple of inches, and when the boat takes the ground the keel is pushed up into the box, and when she comes afloat, it slowly drops the couple of inches, usually keeps thing clear. On my Seal, and on Seajet's Anderson, there is a bulb on the bottom end of the keel, and in the Seals case this seals, (ho-ho) the slot. I think it does on the Anderson, but I aint sure.

Chrusty 1,

yes the Anderson 22' keels' ballast bulb is veed on top, so it fairs in with the hull shape when raised.

I've never had trouble with small stones or mud which other lift keel boats report, but A22's with an unmaintained keel plate ( why we use high trestles in winter ) can get rust blisters on the plate, causing the keel to stick on the way down - it - 950lbs - lowers by gravity only, so if this happens the trick is to raise the keel a few inches then let it drop quickly. Then work on the keel in winter, usually just sandpaper & paint.

With view to the size range the OP mentioned, I think he could do a lot worse than a twin keel Trapper 501 / 500, they seem to have 'dropped off the radar' at the moment but are good boats, we test sailed a twin keel 501 example when new, nice boat, just the deal didn't work at the time, secondhand they seem good value.

 

[Searush]

I have looked at a couple of yachts in this category but as I plan to sail in north Norfolk and often dry out on sand or mud I have decided a simple bilge is more suitable for me, certainly most of the north Norfolk boats I see have bilge keels.

the most popular local boats are an excellent indication of the most suitable craft - but there will always be oddballs!

 

[Chrusty 1]

Thanks for your thoughts but I disagree the list has been very useful and gave me a good idea of where to start looking.



I haven't rushed into anything I have been looking for nearly 2 years and I think its unlikely that I will buy this year. I am certainly not a salesman's ideal customer, I insist on far more information than they like giving and I refuse to be rushed into anything, One of the reasons I don't post much is that people assume that I am an an idiot unable to make sensible decisions rather than someone just asking more knowledgeable people for advice.

You keep asking chap, I don't think anybody on here will think you are an idiot, me on the other hand, well they know I'm an idiot!

Most of the boats here in North Devon are bilge keelers and for much the same reasons as you have stated, Everywhere dries out here, and to be honest, a fin keeler is a bit of a liability in the Bristol Channel, they seriously limit where you can go. Searush's advice about looking at what is popular keel wise in your area is sound.