OK I admit it I made a mistake !

[Lakesailor]

Quarter tonner. Lots of people. Lots of heeling.

 

[RupertW]

Like Ken's girls - you will recognise it when you see it. Be wary of those who prattle on about "sailing performance" - that is only one measure of a boats characteristics. Being able to undertake the type of passages you want is the key requirement. If you want to buzz around the racecourse in an afternoon and get back to the bar in time for a couple of hours of BSing - get a 1/4 tonner. If you want to make coastal passages comfortably to moor up in a nice harbour for the night etc, get a Centaur.

Incidentally I have owned an Eventide (suggested earlier - but a bigger version) for over 30 years. Fantastic boat (for me) but not one I would recommend for a first boat - too much work, and nowhere near as good as a Centaur (or similar) for practical cruising.

I couldn't disagree more, although I admit that I'm not sure whether my GK24 is a quarter tonner, but must be similar.

Performance isn't to be sniffed at, and a wide flat working surface has always made sense to me in the worst weather. We know that if we're half way into a 120 mile sail from Plymouth to South Brittany and the wind turns against us that we'll still chomp through the miles on a decent course. Downwind we will fly without putting up fancy sails unless we want to. In F6s and 7s we may be uncomfortable but always know the sails will give us far more power and control than a slug under engine.

Accommodation is no worse than a slower boat, apart from no standing headroom.

I would go with Uffa Fox's remark when told that his racing boats were more uncomfortable than cruising boats, "If I want a gentler more seakindly boat, I reef too soon, and then put sail back up again later. That's a choice not open to boats designed to sail badly"



With accommodation that matches the

 

[Seajet]

The GK24 is a much more cruiser oriented development of what was originally a 1/4 tonner - was 'Giant Killer' 24 or 29 - half ton ? I think the 24, 1/4 .

The real snag with the GK is a distinctly fin keel.

Cruising a racing boat by reefing early sounds great but doesn't really work in practice; the hull shape is still a touch radical, usually tending to roll a bit ( especially with a big rig ) and less internal volume; the engine may well be an afterthought.

Pure racing boats tend to have user unfriendly things like running backstays too.

There's the odd rare lift keeler, but generally the fixed fin is a total stopper.

This is thinking of the OP's requirements.

 

[Tranona]

I couldn't disagree more, although I admit that I'm not sure whether my GK24 is a quarter tonner, but must be similar.

Performance isn't to be sniffed at, and a wide flat working surface has always made sense to me in the worst weather. We know that if we're half way into a 120 mile sail from Plymouth to South Brittany and the wind turns against us that we'll still chomp through the miles on a decent course. Downwind we will fly without putting up fancy sails unless we want to. In F6s and 7s we may be uncomfortable but always know the sails will give us far more power and control than a slug under engine.

Accommodation is no worse than a slower boat, apart from no standing headroom.

I would go with Uffa Fox's remark when told that his racing boats were more uncomfortable than cruising boats, "If I want a gentler more seakindly boat, I reef too soon, and then put sail back up again later. That's a choice not open to boats designed to sail badly"



With accommodation that matches the

Sorry, just proves my point. The OP is looking for a boat to learn on and singlehanded potter around the Norfolk coast - and if he likes it spread his horizons.

Your boat (good though it is for what it is) is not a suitable starting point. "Performance" and bashing into F6 and 7 is I would suggest not high on the agenda.

 

[RupertW]

Sorry, just proves my point. The OP is looking for a boat to learn on and singlehanded potter around the Norfolk coast - and if he likes it spread his horizons.

Your boat (good though it is for what it is) is not a suitable starting point. "Performance" and bashing into F6 and 7 is I would suggest not high on the agenda.

Ah well, we'll just have to disagree - I can't think of a more suitable boat to singlehand and enjoy a gentle daysail, whether it's around a harbour in 5 knots of wind or having fun in F3, then have a turn on a sixpence little boat to park. Perhaps I'm reading too much into my own early experiences of sailing.

 

[Clyde_Wanderer]

While the Centaur has many good points, my elderly quarter tonner(from 1972 - originally designed in 1969) will run rings round a Centaur on any point of sail.

Pete does that mean you cant sail her in a straight line?
C_W

 

[doug748]

We now have a good list of runners:

"Forum suggestions being looked at:

Westerley Centaur
Newbridge Virgo Voyager
Sadler 25
Four-21
Jaguar 25
Westerly Pageant
Trident 24 (triple keel)
Caprice's/Pandora's/Hurley's/Anderson's
Mirror Offshore
Mirage 28
Mirage 26
Cobra 750
Hurley 24
Tomahawk 25
Sabre 27
Eventide 24ft (Maurice Griffith)"

My pick would be the Sadler, Sabre, Hurley or Centaur
+ maybe a bilge keel 1/4 tonner - if we can find one.

Perhaps the OP should put up poll jobbie for a final say.

 

[Tranona]

Ah well, we'll just have to disagree - I can't think of a more suitable boat to singlehand and enjoy a gentle daysail, whether it's around a harbour in 5 knots of wind or having fun in F3, then have a turn on a sixpence little boat to park. Perhaps I'm reading too much into my own early experiences of sailing.

Yes, we are our own experience. always difficult to recommend to others, although as with the OP if you listen to them enough (he has posted several times on the subject) you might get an idea of what might suit, particularly when set against the type of boats he has been considering.

Could of course be completely wrong, but he is at the stage in life where I doubt a boat like yours would be a good starting point.

 

[Seajet]

Doug748,

no such thing as a twin keel 1/4 tonner.

Twin keel Seawolf 26 should go on the list

As should Hurley 22

The Anderson briefly mentioned in the list is the lift keel ( as standard) Anderson 22, I have one and run the owners association; www.anderson22class.co.uk
obviously I think they're the bees knees, and magazine reviewers seem to agree, but apart from the odd rare example they have don't have an inboard, instead going for an outboard in a well - which I much prefer personally...

Really it's a case of taking your list and seeing what's available; as Tranona very rightly says, go for a boat in decent nick, avoid 'projects'; and be prepared to travel to see likely candidates.

Good luck, it can be great fun scouting around; and let us know how you get on !

 

[doug748]

Doug748,

no such thing as a twin keel 1/4 tonner.

Yes, it does me no great credit, but there was a degree of irony in my comment.

 

[ianat182]

Seajet. Not quite true. The late Ian Proctor designed a yacht called the Eclipse which used bilge boards and was designed to race as a quarter tonner; I only ever saw the one on the Hamble though.
The similar arrangement more recently used by David Thomas in his Red Fox design but of course not a quarter tonner, but a very good performer also.

I may be wrong but wasn't there a Quarto designed with bilge keels, also I think by David Thomas, a chined yacht as I recall.

ianat182

 

[Seajet]

Seajet. Not quite true. The late Ian Proctor designed a yacht called the Eclipse which used bilge boards and was designed to race as a quarter tonner; I only ever saw the one on the Hamble though.
The similar arrangement more recently used by David Thomas in his Red Fox design but of course not a quarter tonner, but a very good performer also.

I may be wrong but wasn't there a Quarto designed with bilge keels, also I think by David Thomas, a chined yacht as I recall.

ianat182

So, boards maybe but not twin keels on a 1/4 tonner...

The Quarto rings vague bells but google was no help, apart from the obvious line leading to the Duette.

I'd suggest someone looking for a cruiser biased fastish twin keeler would do well to look at a Seawolf 26, not scorching performance but about as good as normal twins get; one of the absolute best twin keelers I know of is the Westerly Fulmar, but that's a whole different league expense wise.

 

[wytco0]

Great suggestions thanks everyone, I can confirm that speed and ultimate handling are not high on my list of priorities, I want to use this boat to have some fun and to learn to sail properly, something forgiving and gentle is preferred over a speedy great handling but hard to sail boat.

Its clear that both from the number of recommendations here and comments elsewhere that the Westerley Centaur would meet my requirements and for that reason its at the top of my short list. The Sadler 25 seems to be a nice boat and gets good reviews and that's also being considered. I haven't actually rejected any although the Anderson is probably out just because its does not have bilge keels.

I will update the list in the first post as I continue to investigate but please keep your comments and recommendations coming, along with any info you might have about and good Westerley Centaurs and Sadler 25's (bilge Keel) for sale.

Thanks

 

[Seajet]

I could be wrong, but I think the Pandora came in fin or lift, no twin keel option there either.

For what it's worth, the Anderson stays upright in mud ( mine lives on a half tide mooring ) but it's your choice of course; and there are certainly more Centaurs available !

Do make sure the engine is Ok, inboard spares, especially Volvo, can be eye-watering; as I found out the hard way with another boat...

You'll find later Centaurs - if in your price range - have much more attractive looking neat sliding main hatches; and keels flexing & leaking slightly is common, ( imagine the loads on splayed keels going in & out of mud twice a day every day ) so one which has already been internally reinforced at the keels would be good, but it's not rocket science to do.

Good luck, and please keep us informed.

 

[wytco0]

I could be wrong, but I think the Pandora came in fin or lift, no twin keel option there either.

For what it's worth, the Anderson stays upright in mud ( mine lives on a half tide mooring ) but it's your choice of course; and there are certainly more Centaurs available !

Do make sure the engine is Ok, inboard spares, especially Volvo, can be eye-watering; as I found out the hard way with another boat...

You'll find later Centaurs - if in your price range - have much more attractive looking neat sliding main hatches; and keels flexing & leaking slightly is common, ( imagine the loads on splayed keels going in & out of mud twice a day every day ) so one which has already been internally reinforced at the keels would be good, but it's not rocket science to do.

Good luck, and please keep us informed.

Hi Seajet thanks for the engine info, I have already noticed that a lot of centaurs are above my target price range. I was hoping to get something with a replacement engine but I am not sure if that will be possible.

Re the A22 lifting keel, my thinking was that it would not sit upright on hard sand but this might not be correct, although a lot of north Norfolk has mud there is also a fair bit of hard sand, I would like to be able to use both safely.

I did wonder about keel fexing and the stresses involved, I will make sure I get this checked out.

 

[Seajet]

No you are correct, the Anderson won't sit upright on hard sand.

If you're onboard to keep an eye on things you can use legs, some A22's have them for cruising; but having tried drying out on sand, I think it far too cruel on any boat; the A22 has a very strong hull, but even in tiny ripples it feels like the end of the world !

The trick is to motor the boat as hard aground as possible to minimise being bounced on the bottom, but no thanks...

The snag with older inboards & cost & hassle of replacing them is one of several reasons why I like the outboard in a well ( I remove & stow it & fit a blank if sailing any distance, giving a drag free non-lobster pot grabbing hull ) as I can take the engine home to work on or indeed change it.

I'm sure there are plenty of well maintained Centaurs, just be careful...

 

[Tranona]

There are currently nearly 30 Centaurs listed on www.yachtworld.com with asking prices around £10k or less, many of them with modern engines, often Beta 20 and on the face of it well kitted out for cruising. Several are on the East Coast.

Have a look at the Westerly Owners Association both for boats for sale and extensive information on the boats. One big advantage with these boats is that all the problems (which aren't many) are well known and will have been sorted, just about all boats were factory completed (many similar boats were home finished) and owners have generally kept them reasonably up to date.

Pretty sure you would get a top boat for under £10k with little or nothing to spend and go sailing. Two or three active seasons and you will be well placed to spend serious money wisely if you want to move on and up, and if you don't like it won't be because you bought a dog of a boat.

 

[Searush]

You are homing in on the sadler 25 - sails well but limited headroom
& the centaur - sails OK with loadsa cabin space & headroom, but borderline on price.

Check out the Pageants, sails better than the centaur, slightly shorter (23')but still great accom for the size & usually £5-7k, so some budget left to cover toys/ dinghy & o/b/ mooring etc.

 

[DownWest]

Great thread for any beginner. Esp Searush's trenchant comments.
DW

 

[wytco0]

You are homing in on the sadler 25 - sails well but limited headroom & the centaur - sails OK with loadsa cabin space & headroom, but borderline on price.

True but I haven't rejected anything yet and I am still looking at additional options. As the winner of the prize for the shortest male in the forum contest the lack of headroom in the Sadler isn't a huge problem for me but more space is always nice.

Check out the Pageants, sails better than the centaur, slightly shorter (23') but still great accom for the size & usually £5-7k, so some budget left to cover toys/ dinghy & o/b/ mooring etc.

Just back from a drive up to Wells to see what boats are there, unfortunately not many boats say what make and model they are on the outside and I am not a fully qualified boat spotter. I caught a glimpse of the slug at its winter grazing grounds and saw a lovely Westerley Fulmar in the yard, too big and expensive for me but looked like a very nice bilge keeler.

I will definitely investigate the Pageants thanks for the pointer.

Anyone know anything about the Colvic Sailer 26 there is one for sale in East Anglia that might be worth an inspection.