New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
- Start date
affinite
Well-known member
@Sailaboutvic
Yes I suspect you are right that some marinas will outwardly bury their heads in the sand but I have no reason to doubt that in the background they are making representations through their trade association. Clearly the marinas have nothing to gain from the taxt but a lot to loose.
@Chris_Robb
Chris You are def right to be careful about the contract situation. I still smile at the argument I had with Leros marina when I asked to them to release/cancel my contract for a 10.4m boat and replace it with a 12m contract for a 13.1m boat (with the corresponding increase in fees)
We got there in the end but still makes me smile "It is a legally binding contract Mr Steve ..... Yes but I want to give you MORE money ..."
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I agree their don't have any thing to gain , and a lot to lose but at the same time if contract are up for renew then getting them sign before people relies that this tax has come in force is a big plus for them .
My suggesting to any one who want to stay on Greece pay up other wise re move your lines and leave like we did , once this law is in place it not going to be easy even if they want to remove it not with the EU on their backs . I only hope for every one in Greece that it is amended in some way to make to more reasonable for everyone .
I have to say I do feel for everyone you got caught up in this and at this time of year it not so easy to get the yacht out before the 1st Jan one as to wonder if it was plan in this way
jimbaerselman
New member
The current position known about the Greek tax is published at http://www.cruising.org.uk/node/22634
The translation we're working from, or maybe the original Greek wording, allow some small ambiguities. An example is that a 12.5m yacht may well be rated at €1,200 pa, and €13.5 at €1,300 pa (rather than a hundred each higher).
More important is that concessions are available for vessels over 12m, CA understanding is:
1. There's an option to pay monthly at €10 per meter per month.
2. Proof of tax payment is only needed for boats afloat in Greek waters (time ashore, or time in other countries, does not need to be covered)
3. Boats based in Greece get a 30% discount if they don't pay the monthly option.
The implication is that a 13.5m boat may:
1. Opt to pay one month after launch at €130, and use this month to commission and depart for other countries
2. Decide to stay and pay €1,300 - €390 = €910
3. Decide to cruise 2 months early season, pull out or go abroad, then cruise a further 2 months before laying up ashore. = €520
So it's up to each boat over 12m, as things appear at the moment, to do its sums.
On the other side of the equation are the offerings of the other countries competing for your custom. Croatia does charge quite high fees to go to the places which everyone else wishes to visit - the town quaysides, and the anchorages converted to mooring fields. About 20 such nights, plus entry fees and residence fees, quickly eat up the savings from moving out of Greece. Turkey is undeniably cheaper, but again, entry fees, visas, and boring blue cards and their marina visits eat up some of that surplus cash.
I suspect that, even with this tax, a season or two cruising Greece will remain on most cruising agendas. Listening to the reactions at last night's Mediterranean Section meeting of the Cruising Association, the 60 or so members attending broadly agreed. It was clear, though, that it was a close call for 12m to 15m boats spending a whole season afloat; some on a tight budget would probably move on.
The translation we're working from, or maybe the original Greek wording, allow some small ambiguities. An example is that a 12.5m yacht may well be rated at €1,200 pa, and €13.5 at €1,300 pa (rather than a hundred each higher).
More important is that concessions are available for vessels over 12m, CA understanding is:
1. There's an option to pay monthly at €10 per meter per month.
2. Proof of tax payment is only needed for boats afloat in Greek waters (time ashore, or time in other countries, does not need to be covered)
3. Boats based in Greece get a 30% discount if they don't pay the monthly option.
The implication is that a 13.5m boat may:
1. Opt to pay one month after launch at €130, and use this month to commission and depart for other countries
2. Decide to stay and pay €1,300 - €390 = €910
3. Decide to cruise 2 months early season, pull out or go abroad, then cruise a further 2 months before laying up ashore. = €520
So it's up to each boat over 12m, as things appear at the moment, to do its sums.
On the other side of the equation are the offerings of the other countries competing for your custom. Croatia does charge quite high fees to go to the places which everyone else wishes to visit - the town quaysides, and the anchorages converted to mooring fields. About 20 such nights, plus entry fees and residence fees, quickly eat up the savings from moving out of Greece. Turkey is undeniably cheaper, but again, entry fees, visas, and boring blue cards and their marina visits eat up some of that surplus cash.
I suspect that, even with this tax, a season or two cruising Greece will remain on most cruising agendas. Listening to the reactions at last night's Mediterranean Section meeting of the Cruising Association, the 60 or so members attending broadly agreed. It was clear, though, that it was a close call for 12m to 15m boats spending a whole season afloat; some on a tight budget would probably move on.
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nimbusgb
Active member
So if i go sailing for 2 months on my 11.6 m boat it costs me the full 400 whether I launch and haul or stay afloat. A 12m boat can go sailing for the two months, haul out and only pay 240.
Pi$$ up and brewery spring to mind. I am one of lots of people who have a smaller boat, spend a lot in Greek marina's, tavernas and quite a bit in local supermarkets and other stores, not to mention being on first name terms with several chandlers and other boat support enterprises thanks to my regular visits.
Hmmm. A half meter bowsprit for the cruising chute is sounding good.
Pi$$ up and brewery spring to mind. I am one of lots of people who have a smaller boat, spend a lot in Greek marina's, tavernas and quite a bit in local supermarkets and other stores, not to mention being on first name terms with several chandlers and other boat support enterprises thanks to my regular visits.
Hmmm. A half meter bowsprit for the cruising chute is sounding good.
JonJon
Member
It would have been nice to have abolished the need to visit the port police at every tin pot harbour like some felon on probation and sensibly, to have substituted this one off tax for the whole year with maybe the occasional spot check from the pp. But, hey ho, no doubt we will be doing both from now on and, in the confused early days falling foul of misinterpretaion by the local squaddies.
I go on holiday to relax - not to carry sheaves of paper about to justify my existence in what is a fellow EU country.
I go on holiday to relax - not to carry sheaves of paper about to justify my existence in what is a fellow EU country.
Appleyard
Well-known member
I wonder what the reaction to this new tax has been in Germany,They must be really pissed off particularly as they see themselves as having repeatedly bailed Greece out over the past few years. Is there a Forum similar to this in Germany? and does anyone here have a link (with translation) to it? Just wondering.
affinite
Well-known member
Fair point
BrianH
Active member
I've just started to look - this one here quotes information from an English forum ... perhaps this one.
http://forum.yacht.de/showthread.php?148451-Neue-Abgabe-Steuer-in-GR&p=1277713#post1277713
Google translate will give the drift but the main point is an English translation in one of the replies (also Google translate from the Greek, I think) there of a communication from the Greek Marinas Association to the Ministry of Tourism.
I'll keep looking ...
Edit:
I've trawled a few of the German and Austrian forums and not a mention other than that one above. I've also looked on the web site of the DSV - Deutscher Segler-Verband German Sailing Association, which has been active before on behalf of German sailors in Greece. It was they who initiated an action against Greece in the EU commission for costs contrary to EU law, which they won. But nothing there either, even on their news pages.
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nimbusgb
Active member
The bit about 'boats already in Greece on 01 01 14 must pay to remain' is rather interesting. What happens if you only get to the boat in June?
The CA page highlighting boats most likely to leave being the ones over 12m is actually an erroneous assumption as I'm
just under 12m and having to pay a full years tax even though I keep my boat there 365 days a year and only sail for a few weeks. This may just be the shove I have been waiting for to move to Croatia. Saves me a chunk of airfares and ferry fares, is closer and offers 'new cruising ground'.
The CA page highlighting boats most likely to leave being the ones over 12m is actually an erroneous assumption as I'm
just under 12m and having to pay a full years tax even though I keep my boat there 365 days a year and only sail for a few weeks. This may just be the shove I have been waiting for to move to Croatia. Saves me a chunk of airfares and ferry fares, is closer and offers 'new cruising ground'.
miyagimoon
Member
The translation on the CA link states "The tax will apply to all vessels of all nationalities (commercial or leisure) over 7m LOA, as defined on their registration documents, which sail, moor or anchor in Greek waters."
Questions:
A. If we were to launch, then sail straight out of Greece one assumes there will be no tax to pay. Is this correct or will one still have to pay for 1 month?
B. If one is transiting through. Say sailing from Sardina to Turkey and stops at lets say Kalamata and / or Crete will you have to pay this tax and if so how much.
C. Based on the words "All vessels". Does this mean that ferries from Turkey etc will get taxed? If so that might be enough to stop the one from Kas to Kastellerizo and wipe out the islands whole economy.
Is this not really a tax aimed at those believed (by the government) to be rich / wealthy and one that will in reality not be imposed on all vessels but a select few.
Our yacht is 13.2 (according to our part 1) but in reality with the davits and bow sprite is 16.1m. At 1300 - 1600 Euro extra per year (1030 -1260 for 8 month in the water at the monthly rate) I for one will most likely have to leave.
Just been made aware of http://perivolos.gr/img/e84848120190a8d0e696fbeb15647a74PSIFISTHEN_EAS.pdf the Google translation being http://translate.google.com/transla...8120190a8d0e696fbeb15647a74PSIFISTHEN_EAS.pdf.
It clearly states under article 13 which is at the end of page 5. That it applys only to recreational vessels and small vessels. I would suggest either the CA's translations incorrect or google has translated the official greek document incorrectly.
If Google is correct then we really do see who this tax is targeted at.
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Chris_Robb
Well-known member
It really is a difficult language to translate! Having read it through, I still cant understand much of it!
I would like to make one bet though: That boats ashore will be regarded as in greek waters no matter what the act says, I really cannot imagine them letting this go, and in any case it will be interpreted as such by the local officialdom. Oh well back to the drawing board on my cunning plan.....
Steve C Cronin
N/A
You're just a soft touch!
Marsupial
New member
EXACTLY! see my previous posts, how many of you have wondered why for example a Bav 50 Greek flagged charter boat has a red over white on the mast - well now you know - its a fishing boat and as such is outside the scope of this tax - easy.
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Jeva
Member
Look on the bright side- perhaps one or two charter companies might move away 
Carmel2
New member
Look on the bright side- perhaps one or two charter companies might move away
I doubt it as they have the ability to pass the cost on, unlike Joe Bloggs
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nimbusgb
Active member
eMailed our yard.
their response
SNAFU!
their response
SNAFU!
jimbaerselman
New member
Good point. The published text, a readable summary rather than a translation, assumed readers would be leisure sailors. So, yes, we're talking only about small craft used for recreation, including commercial recreation, which includes charter boats and day tripper boats running excursions with up to 45 people on board.
As it stands, over 12m pays for one month, under 12m pays €200 to €400 depending on length
As above. For 15m that's €150 for 30 days - €5 per day. €4 per day for 12m.
If below 45 pax capacity, this tax kicks in. There's a 50% concession for commercial craft. A 20m craft would pay €1,000 a year. Carrying about 10,000 over the year that's €0.10 extra cost per passenger.
According to the preamble presented to the parliament, this is a means of ensuring that port dues are gathered far more effectively from the vast number of vessels locally owned, 7m to 12m motor vessels. Larger vessels, say, over 15m, pay much less in proportion to their total operating costs (which go up as the square of the cube of their LOA, while this tax rises only linearly)
It's your LOA as noted on your registration document which counts. And there's a phrase which suggests that, in the over 12m class, you ignore the first metre, so 13.2m boats pay €1,300 pa, discounted by 30%= €910, or, over a 140 day season, about €6.30 per day.
As things stand, each boat should do their own sums to assess whether the extra costs are acceptable or not for the type and cost of cruising they enjoy. And how it compares with (say) Croatia and Turkey. Given the numbers determined to leave Croatia because of the spread of expensive mooring fields in popular anchorages and sojourn taxes, and those leaving Turkey to escape the cost and inconvenience of complying with Blue card regulations, there's obviously going to be an enormous exodus to the more civilised and predictable West Med.
Really?
As mentioned, it's a summary for a specific audience. Mea culpa. I've made a correction. Thanks for pointing it out. Yes, we've been working from the document you quoted, we're obtaining proper translations, and we'll be asking for clarifications and examples from the Greek authorities.
All the above statements are based on unofficial translations, so may contain errors. Don't hang me or the CA if they're wrong. Hang Google translate and my Greek teacher's inadequacies!
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Donheist
Active member
So My plan was to fly out to corfu in april, take my crew for a daysail and then slip lines at midnight and head for orthoni or paxos, anchor up for a few hours sleep and then set off for sicily, not to return to greece for years.
I could skip the daysail, not attract any attention, provision the boat quietly and simply slip lines at midnight for sicily.
My marina dues are paid up, so short of a greek gunboat intervening, i have no need to interact with any officialdom during my plan.
What risks do i run?
By the way, not by nature a tax avoider but 400 euros for 12 hours of sailing in greek waters seems steep...
I could skip the daysail, not attract any attention, provision the boat quietly and simply slip lines at midnight for sicily.
My marina dues are paid up, so short of a greek gunboat intervening, i have no need to interact with any officialdom during my plan.
What risks do i run?
By the way, not by nature a tax avoider but 400 euros for 12 hours of sailing in greek waters seems steep...
Nostrodamus
New member
It would be interesting if a few of us wrote asking for a quote for next year on the understanding we would have the chance to withdraw if this tax came into effect. He may pass on information to his trade that boats wanted to come but would not if the tax is implemented.
It may be a way of getting heard.