New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Nostrodamus]

You may risk not getting into a marina in Sicily as many are considering booking now for next season as it is so much cheaper. You can also anchor all round the island for free.

 

[Donheist]

Thanks. Not a worry, only passing through en route to, ultimately, suffolk...

 

[chrisgee]

Greece v Croatia

So if i go sailing for 2 months on my 11.6 m boat it costs me the full 400 whether I launch and haul or stay afloat. A 12m boat can go sailing for the two months, haul out and only pay 240.

Pi$$ up and brewery spring to mind. I am one of lots of people who have a smaller boat, spend a lot in Greek marina's, tavernas and quite a bit in local supermarkets and other stores, not to mention being on first name terms with several chandlers and other boat support enterprises thanks to my regular visits.

Hmmm. A half meter bowsprit for the cruising chute is sounding good.

Not sure that you can pay by the month ,thought for up to 12m you had to pay 400 eur weather you used you boat for 1 month or 12.
You also have a similar yacht carnet to pay for in Croatia in your case I believe it would be approx 300 euro and again this is for a 12 month period.
You will also pay a huge amount more to use harbours and even just mooring buoys ( 40-50 eu per night).
All in all Greece will still be one of the largest cruising areas in the Med for £350.00 pa plus the lowest harbour fees almost anywhere ( bear in mind that they are collected 80% of the time.)

Don`t get me wrong , I would rather not pay any more than previous years but in the cold light of day it ain`t really so bad a deal overall.

 

[nimbusgb]

Perhaps a few hundred emails to Marina's just hinting at the fact that we are all considering sailing away pre 01/01/14 might get them off their arses and banging on a few doors.

 

[nimbusgb]

Not sure that you can pay by the month ,thought for up to 12m you had to pay 400 eur weather you used you boat for 1 month or 12.
You also have a similar yacht carnet to pay for in Croatia in your case I believe it would be approx 300 euro and again this is for a 12 month period.
You will also pay a huge amount more to use harbours and even just mooring buoys ( 40-50 eu per night).
All in all Greece will still be one of the largest cruising areas in the Med for £350.00 pa plus the lowest harbour fees almost anywhere ( bear in mind that they are collected 80% of the time.)

Don`t get me wrong , I would rather not pay any more than previous years but in the cold light of day it ain`t really so bad a deal overall.

Ummm that's exactly what I'm saying! at 11.6 I have to pay the whole year whereas a 12m boat can pay for 1 month. I only sail ( and I am only in the water ) for 5 weeks.

Considering the savings on flights, travel etc and the fact that I only sail for a small period of the year, Croatia is actually looking very appealing.

As you say it's not the money as much as the way it's administered. The time waste that is a DEKPA will still be there, half the time they wont have the forms for the TPP tax so you'll try to pay but wont be able to. ( Get forms by 01-01-14 to all the harbours and tax offices ......... don't make me laugh ) next thing you know some humped up Greek policeman is going all 'Mediterranean' on you shouting about how he is going to arrest the boat if you don't pay 100% fine.

For pitys sake Greece, charge 1,2 or 3 even 5, Euro per metre per month cruising tax, in the water time. Monthly stamps, 25% for a year in advance. Scrap the DEKPA. It will all work so much more simply.

 

[skipklaus]

I wonder what the reaction to this new tax has been in Germany,They must be really pissed off particularly as they see themselves as having repeatedly bailed Greece out over the past few years. Is there a Forum similar to this in Germany? and does anyone here have a link (with translation) to it? Just wondering.

No, we are not pissed off. We are quite relaxed. Let's wait and see, until there is something really official. There was a member-only statement by the german cruising association (Kreuzerabteilung). Thus i'm not authorized to publish it in this forum. They write something important:

The law is after much deliberation - and public , in which all interested parties and stakeholders to make representations - on 8 November has been introduced in Parliament. But even against the new bill , there is significant opposition , including by the Association of Marina owner.
It is unclear when the final vote will take place. But since the new regulations on 1 January 2014 to come into force , it can not last too long.

 

[miyagimoon]

Good point. The published text, a readable summary rather than a translation, assumed readers would be leisure sailors. So, yes, we're talking only about small craft used for recreation, including commercial recreation, which includes charter boats and day tripper boats running excursions with up to 45 people on board.
As it stands, over 12m pays for one month, under 12m pays €200 to €400 depending on length
As above. For 15m that's €150 for 30 days - €5 per day. €4 per day for 12m.
If below 45 pax capacity, this tax kicks in. There's a 50% concession for commercial craft. A 20m craft would pay €1,000 a year. Carrying about 10,000 over the year that's €0.10 extra cost per passenger.
According to the preamble presented to the parliament, this is a means of ensuring that port dues are gathered far more effectively from the vast number of vessels locally owned, 7m to 12m motor vessels. Larger vessels, say, over 15m, pay much less in proportion to their total operating costs (which go up as the square of the cube of their LOA, while this tax rises only linearly)
It's your LOA as noted on your registration document which counts. And there's a phrase which suggests that, in the over 12m class, you ignore the first metre, so 13.2m boats pay €1,300 pa, discounted by 30%= €910, or, over a 140 day season, about €6.30 per day.

As things stand, each boat should do their own sums to assess whether the extra costs are acceptable or not for the type and cost of cruising they enjoy. And how it compares with (say) Croatia and Turkey. Given the numbers determined to leave Croatia because of the spread of expensive mooring fields in popular anchorages and sojourn taxes, and those leaving Turkey to escape the cost and inconvenience of complying with Blue card regulations, there's obviously going to be an enormous exodus to the more civilised and predictable West Med.

Really?

As mentioned, it's a summary for a specific audience. Mea culpa. I've made a correction. Thanks for pointing it out. Yes, we've been working from the document you quoted, we're obtaining proper translations, and we'll be asking for clarifications and examples from the Greek authorities.

All the above statements are based on unofficial translations, so may contain errors. Don't hang me or the CA if they're wrong. Hang Google translate and my Greek teacher's inadequacies!

Hi Jim,

No I'm not picking on you or the CA. I for one really appreciate what you do and as you know praise your knowledge and your website. However, like everyone else we need information and need to understanding how this is going to affect us.

This has come as a bit of a bolt out of the blue.

For our own reasons we purposely returned to Greece (after spending time in Turkey, TRNC and Egypt all considerably cheaper that Greece) this winter and are / were considering making it our based for the next few years. Now we find that we could end up with a tax liability of 1300 Euro per year / 130 Euro per month. Because of this we may well choice to go elsewhere but now (assuming the Greeks implement it quick enough) we will have to pay 130 Euro just to be able to leave and maybe more if as I suspect that this tax will also apply to vessels stored on land (which ours is for the winter, Jan - May 5 month x 130 = 650 Euro). Furthermore, if in the future we need to transit through (say to go from Turkey to Sardinia) we will in theory have to pay for that privilege too.

If due notice (I personally do not think that 1 month notice is fair) had been given we may well have chosen to go elsewhere.

Surely, the CA, RYA etc should be campaigning to get this tax differed until after the sailing season starts thus allowing those who wish to leave to do so without being penalised. Furhermore, I believe they should also campaign for vessels transiting through to be exempt.

Having spent time in the other places you mentioned. I can honestly believe that Turkey is better (well most of it) and cheaper than Greece especially if this tax is implemented. Cost of Turkish Transit Log 90Tl (33 euro, without using agent), Residence permit 400Tl (150 Euro), cost of Blue Card 20Tl (7 Euro, we already have one). Whats the hassle with pumping out when your tank is full). That lot totals to 190 Euro, (1.5 months tax in Greece!!!) and I don't have to keep running to the Port Police to get a stamp in my Dekpa.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Being in Italy over winter we have the luxury of sitting an watching to see if and how this new law will be implemented before we have to decide.

Those who are already in Greece are in limbo. They don't know how it will affect them and by the time the small print is ironed out they may well find themselves with a rather large bill.

Even so it may be worth waiting a year or so for us rather than pay a tax that is later rescinded.

 

[Carmel2]

Keep it coming! These Greek anchorages are sounding quieter as every post goes by.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Hi Miyagimoon,

It's OK, I know you're not getting at anyone. Like many others, you're fed up with this unexpected turn of events, and the short notice given. And it feels good to kick the bucket . . .

Your questions are useful; they help us understand differing points of view and situations.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Keep it coming! These Greek anchorages are sounding quieter as every post goes by.

On the other hand, if you have to pay for a year you may as well stay there and make the most of it!!!!

 

[Appleyard]

Just to clarify..

At this point,is it known if harbour dues/fees or whatever we have or have not been paying up till now in Greece will still continue to be applied in addition to the new tax?

In other words ,if we decide to pay the new tax and sail in Greek waters from 1/01/14 will we still have to pay at each harbour we visit. I know that we will still be charged for Electricity and water...

Secondly,as there seems to be a feeling for a mass exodus,where is everybody going to go? Turkey has been getting a bit of a hammering on this forum because of the blue card business,so where is the next destination?

 

[jordanbasset]

Any suggestion that the RYA or the C.A. have any realistic chance of altering a decision of a sovereign foreign country is a little unrealistic. They are far more likely, indeed they are being affected, by the very real economic pressure and threats of the E.U. to increase taxes or else the bail out will be stopped.

 

[Nostrodamus]

Secondly,as there seems to be a feeling for a mass exodus,where is everybody going to go? Turkey has been getting a bit of a hammering on this forum because of the blue card business,so where is the next destination?

Grimsby and swimming from Cleethorpes?
Then again going one step down from there you could always go to Ramsgate? (Thinking about it I would gladly pay double the tax to be anywhere apart from Ramsgate)

 

[Nostrodamus]

Any suggestion that the RYA or the C.A. have any realistic chance of altering a decision of a sovereign foreign country is a little unrealistic. They are far more likely, indeed they are being affected, by the very real economic pressure and threats of the E.U. to increase taxes or else the bail out will be stopped.

The only hope is if they are in breech of some EU rule...

 

[charles_reed]

Looks like both you and our Greek friends will be relieved when you leave their country then!

Feline that

 

[charles_reed]

Can anyone tell me what the RYA have said or done about this tax?

I'd be surprised if the RYA had any input about the tax which has nothing to do with the UK and, therefore, nothing to do with them (the RYA).
After all, those who find the tax inequitable (which is in no way to be confused with "fair", a kindergarten concept), are welcome to vote with their keels.
They will probably find the "tax" in one form or another, will follow them around - except in Scotland.
With regard to Croatia and their tax - all Venetians know that the Croatians are descended from a long and honourable line of pirates - that's why il Serenissima had to take the country over in the 15th century.

Ransome, blackmail, taxes - all the same thing dependent on your point of victimisation. The world is made up of sheep (to be shorn) and kleptocrats.

 

[Bertramdriver]

Thank you for that thought. My next boat will definitely be named KLEPTOCRAT

 

[sailaboutvic]

My feeling on this thread is that is going to run and run it may even break the record for the longest running thread , has so many people feel so strongly about it .
I hope the say people will vote with there keels or we may just see this tax coming into ever EU country , then we will all have a problem .

 

[truscott]

We've been following this thread, and the ones on the CA website and Cruisers Forum, with interest as we were just in the process of organizing a move from Yat Marin to Messolonghi. We're not doing that any more! Will content ourselves with a fly by, spending a couple of months sailing through the Dodecanese, Sporades and Cyclades, and then exit back to what looks like relative security and certainty in Turkey and Yat Marin (yes, you can be secure and certain in the knowledge that you will be fleeced at every opportunity, but overall, it will ultimately be cheaper!). Messolonghi would have been EUR 300 more for the same service as Yat Marin, but the extra EUR 1300 (call it EUR 910 if you get the discount) becomes the straw that breaks the camels back. Yes, we will still be visiting many of the same ports and restaurants as we would have been along the way, but we'll be exiting to keep the costs down as much as most budget oriented people will be, and so ultimately it'll be the innocent(ish) Greek's who suffer from our absence. I am quite certain it matters not an iota to the politico's and fat cats that caused the whole mess in the first place. Venting on here feels good, but I'm certain will have little to no effect.

Cheers PT