New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[duncan99210]

IIRC the Italian tax was abandoned for visiting vessels because it would cost too much to implement in return for a fairly small tax take, as the tax was based on days in Italian waters and a complex charging system which would have meant, for example, our 11.95m yacht being charged at about €0.85 per day. It wasn't until you got to about 30 m length that the tax became worth collecting and the general feeling was that the larger boats would vote with their hulls and not bother going to Italy, hence the tax was nor implemented.

The French case is, as I understand it, is more complex. It seeks to equate boats as means of transport, which you have a right to move round freely within the EU for up to six months in another country without that country seeking to impose their tax and registration regime on the vehicle. Thereafter, you must register the vehicle in the new country with all the atendant hassle and cost. The danger of the French challenge is that this would open the door to all countries requiring you to re-register your boat under their regime if you keep it there for more than six months. Frankly, that's a can of worms best left unopened but it's too late. The French have now opened it and we will all have to live with the consequences.

I've always thought that it was better to fight battles you stood a chance of wining rather than go down in a blaze of glory in one where you didn't stand a chance of winning. The best course of action with the Greek government is that taken by the CA: pragmatic bargaining to get sensible adjustments to policies rather than outright confrontation, balanced by the real possibility that the tax will never be implemented due to the difficulties involved in collecting it in a cost effective manner.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Duncan
I have to disagree with you on some points , the Italy tax was going to cost people who over wintered in Italy and extra 300 Euros near on considering that 168 days , do the sums , plus the Vat , ( the figures were worked out by marina Ragusa why we was there that winter ) .
Complex to collet is another thing all to gather .
I agree the French already pay a boat tax but this isn't the bases that they are fighting the case , it on the bases that the tax is not legal and breaking EU rules .
Regarding opening the doors to country requiring you to re reg a boat if you are in the country more hen 180 days or is it 185 days , that is already law in all EU country that if you are longer in that country then the for said days you need to become a resident , and Import the boat and re reg it , so far we lucky only Spain have try that one on and in places still are .
As far as the CA goes ( knowing very well I am going to get bomb barred with hate mail from There member ) but you brought them into this not me .
So far I not seen much to what been said they have done .
With re free passage , that is an International law so they didn't have a chance in hell stooping any one free passages ,.
The spit payment for yacht over 12 mts and the no payment of tax unless the boat was in the water , was on the table in the begin , so I am a bit lost what the CA have managed to do .
What I will agree with you is , are you said there a real possibility that the tax will never be implemented .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[BrianH]

The Italian tax was revoked for foreign-owned yachts - and for all sub-14m craft irrespective of ownership - because it was feared that a general exodus would result, as well as costing too much for administering. It now allows the Guardia di Finanza to focus more closely on the more blatant owners of large vessels but who report little income and pay little, if any, tax.

Even placing ownership in other legal entities and registering under other flags is no longer any protection if Italian or Italian-resident. Recent tax-prosecution cases have been brought against individuals where their vessel was corporate-owned and registered elsewhere but it was sufficient to determine who actually uses the boat.

It could be argued that such measures could be used by Greece, which claims the blanket tax for everyone is necessary because Greek owners - who are the real target for the tax we are told - have non-Greek ownership and registration. But then, Greece has no such a formidable agency as the Guardia di Finanza, which has real teeth and uses them.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The Italian tax was revoked for foreign-owned yachts - and for all sub-14m craft irrespective of ownership - because it was feared that a general exodus would result, as well as costing too much for administering. It now allows the Guardia di Finanza to focus more closely on the more blatant owners of large vessels but who report little income and pay little, if any, tax.

Even placing ownership in other legal entities and registering under other flags is no longer any protection if Italian or Italian-resident. Recent tax-prosecution cases have been brought against individuals where their vessel was corporate-owned and registered elsewhere but it was sufficient to determine who actually uses the boat.

It could be argued that such measures could be used by Greece, which claims the blanket tax for everyone is necessary because Greek owners - who are the real target for the tax we are told - have non-Greek ownership and registration. But then, Greece has no such a formidable agency as the Guardia di Finanza, which has real teeth and uses them.

Well said , you hit the nail on the head .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Steve C Cronin]

IIRC the Italian tax was abandoned for visiting vessels because it would cost too much to implement in return for a fairly small tax take, as the tax was based on days in Italian waters and a complex charging system which would have meant, for example, our 11.95m yacht being charged at about €0.85 per day. It wasn't until you got to about 30 m length that the tax became worth collecting and the general feeling was that the larger boats would vote with their hulls and not bother going to Italy, hence the tax was nor implemented.

The French case is, as I understand it, is more complex. It seeks to equate boats as means of transport, which you have a right to move round freely within the EU for up to six months in another country without that country seeking to impose their tax and registration regime on the vehicle. Thereafter, you must register the vehicle in the new country with all the atendant hassle and cost. The danger of the French challenge is that this would open the door to all countries requiring you to re-register your boat under their regime if you keep it there for more than six months. Frankly, that's a can of worms best left unopened but it's too late. The French have now opened it and we will all have to live with the consequences.

I've always thought that it was better to fight battles you stood a chance of wining rather than go down in a blaze of glory in one where you didn't stand a chance of winning. The best course of action with the Greek government is that taken by the CA: pragmatic bargaining to get sensible adjustments to policies rather than outright confrontation, balanced by the real possibility that the tax will never be implemented due to the difficulties involved in collecting it in a cost effective manner.

NO. They, like any sensible country realised that it just wasn't legal EU-wise and wasn't in their best interests as "Good Europeans".

 

[BrianH]

Perhaps Greece can quiet the clamour and avoid all the unpleasantness of complaints about the new tax by copying their new EU member and Balkan neighbour, Croatia, which raises considerable revenue from visiting yachts by a stealthy accumulation of fees and taxes about which no one seems to think unusual or worthy of complaint, if this forum is any indication.

The fees and taxes levied are:

1. Navigation safety and pollution prevention fee
2. Aids to navigation safety fee
3. Chart fee
4. Administrative charge fee
5. Sojourn Tax

Last item: "the user of the vessel is required to pay a lump sum sojourn tax payment for him/herself and all the other persons spending the night on the vessel" for a period that must be stated when clearing in ... Except the tax is rated on boat length (potential crew) and not the actual number on the crew list. Adapted from the earlier 'Kurtaxe', a per head per night rip off, applied previously only in marinas and on concessionary buoys, this tax is significant for the single-handed sailor, as I well know.

Strange (to me) how few complaints arise about this unique set of costs to EU sailing members.

 

[duncan99210]

Ah, but there aren't many folks based in Croatia who've got the wind in their sails about how dare the Croarians levy any taxes on them at all. As I said earlier, there is little point in fighting battles you can't win. Better to be a bit crafty round the edges and get changes made, which weren't there in the original Greek text of the law, than trying to get the Greeks to change their minds about the law as a whole. I suspect that the Greeks may simply take a leaf out of the Croatian play book if the French challenge causes them problems at the EU level and re-title the tax to match the Croatian one..... And I'm still concerned that we might wind up with the situation where keeping your boat in a foreign country will lead to a requirement to reflag it, as per the Spanish model, of which I'm only too well aware.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Duncan
Ok let's stop talking rubbish here and talk facts .
Greece up to 12 mts one week 400 euros one months 400 Euros six months 400 euros .
Croatia one week 75 Euros one month 118 Euros three month 165 euros one year 203 euros .
Once checked in and fees paid , that it no going to find PP to get messed around , no going to find tax offices ,
I wasn't going to comment on Croatia until I was here a bit longer when I was In better position but sailing in Greece for a very long time I think. I have a good idea of Greece and yes it has some lovely islands and great anchorages , but don't compare it with Croatia , Croatia is clean no plastic bottles and bags , even the big harbour the water is clean , the country side it beautiful, very green and plenty of wild life , there are more islands and anchorage you can every dream off , so far not a flotilla in sight , yes plenty of bare boat charter , but some how there seen to be better behaved most head for marinas or town walls , no loud music from bars on the beach , we have picked up mooring buoys for hours on end it explore the towns , free BUT what about all these guys in dinghy that charging out as soon as you anchor to collect fees with messes I can hear you shout , WHAT GUYS ? So far 15 anchorage and only one did any one come out to us and when we told him we wasn't stay for the night we was told if we wanted to stay , we could anchored in the next bay , just 0.2 miles away it was free .
The down side , we had our fair share of thunder storms , and the wind can come out of no where , but if your experience
It not really a problem and it makes the sailing interesting .
I would suggest people stop talking from there back sides .
The only think I would say is if you want to spend you night on town walls so you can pose or only feel safe in marina don't come here unless you have a good bank balance
.
As I said before many times I happy to pay an tourist tax for the time I am in an country , I am also happy to pay a tax if. I use marina or harbour walls but I fuse to pay a yearly tax for just sailing in another EU country .
As far as getting changes made , I have already answered that question .
We should be gratefully some one it taken on the fight on all our behalf .
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[BrianH]

Deleted. May have got sums wrong as not on board where receipts are.

Edit:
Now back on boat where receipts are and yes, I did get it wrong, memory is not what it was. I paid in total 900 HRK, which is about € 118 for a 30 day stay. My annoyance about these payments tends to lead to exaggeration.

[Note to self] Never rush to post without the evidence to hand.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think you may have missed something out Vic. The Croatian entry costs for my modest 9.4m boat are somewhat different; a total of €208 for 30 days - 1080 HRK total fees plus 500 HRK sojourn tax. And that's just on arrival before all the astronomical buoy and marina fees that are difficult to avoid when arriving from the north.

Hi Barnacle
I have the invoice in front of me just in cast I did get it wrong .this is for three months .
11. 95 mts sojourn tax 650 KN plus 270 nav fee light dues 110 ad min 40 charts ( what charts ) 20 that 1090.60 div by 7 is 165 euros . Or for theses who work in pounds , 122 pounds
All the other fees are valid for one year .

Not sure why your is so different , but we was shown the charges and it was explained to us before we paid .
His last words to us was , go and enjoy Croatia .
OK I just seen the mistake , I wrote six month on the other posting , it mention to say three months . I will change it .
There isn't a six month payment , but it cheeper to pay for a year then to pay 2 three months amount if you are only staying for six months
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[BrianH]

Hi Barnacle
I have the invoice in front of me just in cast I did get it wrong .this is for three months .
11. 95 mts sojourn tax 650 KN plus 270 nav fee light dues 110 ad min 40 charts ( what charts ) 20 that 1090.60 div by 7 is 165 euros . Or for theses who work in pounds , 122 pounds
All the other fees are valid for one year .

Not sure why your is so different , but we was shown the charges and it was explained to us before we paid .
His last words to us was , go and enjoy Croatia .
OK I just seen the mistake , I wrote six month on the other posting , it mention to say three months .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

Yep, I realised just before your post and deleted as I am briefly away from the boat where the receipts are and admit I may have got it wrong - sorry.

Edit:
Well anyway, the fine cost details are not the point and easily misunderstood with the complexity of mixed partial and annual costs. To my mind the principle of - to me - unusually high costs to cruise a fellow member EU country, whether its name is Greece or Croatia, unique to other countries, is contrary to the principle of freedom of movement and free passage enshrined in the original charter.

 

[1bobt]

Having been here since 1992, I cannot see a cats chance in hell that money/cash collected at port level, will get back to Government coffers.

 

[Sybarite]

Yep, I realised just before your post and deleted as I am briefly away from the boat where the receipts are and admit I may have got it wrong - sorry.

Edit:
Well anyway, the fine cost details are not the point and easily misunderstood with the complexity of mixed partial and annual costs. To my mind the principle of - to me - unusually high costs to cruise a fellow member EU country, whether its name is Greece or Croatia, unique to other countries, is contrary to the principle of freedom of movement and free passage enshrined in the original charter.

Here is the detailed reclamation (in French): http://www.stw.fr/forumstw/att_file/ans_file_266989.pdf

And their forum discussion: http://www.stw.fr/forumstw/quest_answers.cfm?quest_id=50454&topic_id=22&st_row=61&rep_st_row=121

 

[sailaboutvic]

Barnacle I totally agree with you ,that's the whole point , as part of the EU no one should have to be taxed to sail in another EU country . That's why I say if they want to tax any thing it should be on mooring fee in marina and harbour , all of us then have a choses to use marina and harbours and pay there taxes .
It will be interesting to see what happen in Croatia , as you said they have already changed the way they calculate there tax , maybe we see some changes here too .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[BrianH]

Barnacle I totally agree with you ,that's the whole point , as part of the EU no one should have to be taxed to sail in another EU country . That's why I say if they want to tax any thing it should be on mooring fee in marina and harbour , all of us then have a choses to use marina and harbours and pay there taxes .
It will be interesting to see what happen in Croatia , as you said they have already changed the way they calculate there tax , maybe we see some changes here too .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

So Vic, we can agree on the important things.

I like your blog, keep up the good work. I shall be interested when you get a little further north into what has been my usual stomping grounds - I haven't been as far south as where you are since 2005, so keen to see what's changed.

As you do get further north, watch out for the bora, it can hit suddenly and unexpectedly, so an anchorage with some shelter to the NE is always good. Of course, the entire mountainous range that fringes the eastern Adriatic can induce a bora at any time but they do seem more prevalent in the north and central areas.

Fair winds.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thanks for the tip .

We too are looking forward to the north . I do have one question , which we still haven't managed to work out , our Internet is with tele2 , and so far we not be able to work out how on earth once you buy credit from a kiosk how to get it on to your tele2 account . We have sent tele2 an email but as yet have not had a reply . Any idea. there must be a number to send a SMS or ring .
And before you say call them , they are like most service centre , once you call the number , it a press this and press that , and that would be fine if it was in English .
It Soon to run out , hopefully we will find out before it does . Other wise it a matter of finding another help full Croatian who can do it for us .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[RichardS]

Thanks for the tip .

We too are looking forward to the north . I do have one question , which we still haven't managed to work out , our Internet is with tele2 , and so far we not be able to work out how on earth once you buy credit from a kiosk how to get it on to your tele2 account . We have sent tele2 an email but as yet have not had a reply . Any idea. there must be a number to send a SMS or ring .
And before you say call them , they are like most service centre , once you call the number , it a press this and press that , and that would be fine if it was in English .
It Soon to run out , hopefully we will find out before it does . Other wise it a matter of finding another help full Croatian who can do it for us .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

We have a Vipnet data sim and when we buy the top up voucher from a shop it has a 14 digit number on it which you just enter into the VIPNET website.

It sounds like your provider is more complicated though.

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

We have a Vipnet data sim and when we buy the top up voucher from a shop it has a 14 digit number on it which you just enter into the VIPNET website.

It sounds like your provider is more complicated though.

Richard

That's the one I wanted to buy , but at the time we asked a young Croatian guy where we could find a shop , and he said there wasn't one near buy , but we could buy a tele2 sim from a kiosk and he would sort it all out for us , which he so kindly did . Stupid us we didn't ask him how to recharge it .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[BrianH]

That's the one I wanted to buy , but at the time we asked a young Croatian guy where we could find a shop , and he said there wasn't one near buy , but we could buy a tele2 sim from a kiosk and he would sort it all out for us , which he so kindly did . Stupid us we didn't ask him how to recharge it .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

Like RichardS I have no experience with tele2 but your receipt for the credit you bought will have a number that you need to type into the tele2 site - or, in the case of a phone, dial ... The first three numbers are recognised by the sim as the dial code (usually preceded and succeeded by *) and the following digits charge your credit amount. I have used T-Mobile and that is how it worked.

If you can find a telecoms shop they will gladly do it for you.

 

[Palarran]

Has anyone heard something new about the tax for 2015? Is this issue dead?