New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Tony Cross]

Well Mac he did drink me out of all my beers , oh and Tony , if your reading this which I sure you are , I give him your details as he want to know about overseas member for the club and how much discount he could get .

( another plug for your club , hope if I every decided to join I get free membership .

Thanks for that Vic, if you see him again point him to the CA website at http://www.theca.org.uk/home, he can join as an overseas member from there - and yes there is a discount for overseas membership.

Can you also ask him about reducing the tax on beer please? If it's easier get him to just lower the tax on Alpha beer, that would help a lot. Thanks!

 

[Max K]

In all our dreams, Vic.
So it's no coincidence that Tsipras is an anagram of piss art?

It could be "Piss Tar" though, which would probably be an apt description of his sailing abilities, perhaps?

Max.

 

[Chris_Robb]

It could be "Piss Tar" though, which would probably be an apt description of his sailing abilities, perhaps?

Max.

Could also be RAPISTS

 

[NornaBiron]

For those of you that may need it I have uploaded the circular that the ministry has sent to the PP offices and that clarifies the new law. I have highlighted (in red) the most common misunderstandings. No check-in check-out, no haul out - launch fee or declaration and no fishing permit. It is in docx but a pdf is also downloadable for those that have no MS office or compatible.

http://automaton.gr/Files/Law2014.docx
http://automaton.gr/Files/Law2014.pdf

Of course it is in Greek but the idea is that you print it and show it to the PP.

Sorry to drag this old thread up but, after today's experience with Kos customs, i thought it might be useful to dig out the law again.

We have been in Kos town harbour for a week and have visited the Port Police who inspected our papers and found them all in order. They only wanted to ascertain that we had not come from Turkey.

Today a woman, claiming to be a customs officer, came along with a child and two men and demanded to see our transit log. We explained that we are an EU boat and therefore did not have, or need, a transit log. We gave her our DEKPA to inspect. Her response was to tell us to go to the customs office with €20 as we do not have the correct paperwork. She insisted that we needed a 'declaration' to travel around the Greek islands. We insisted, more strongly, that we did not so she made a phone call, thanked us for our time and left!

With hindsight our first response should have been to ask for some form of identification. And our second should have been to show her the document linked to above.

Be warned - there are still customs officers (if indeed that's what she was) in Greece that don't know their job.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Sorry to drag this old thread up but, after today's experience with Kos customs, i thought it might be useful to dig out the law again.

We have been in Kos town harbour for a week and have visited the Port Police who inspected our papers and found them all in order. They only wanted to ascertain that we had not come from Turkey.

Today a woman, claiming to be a customs officer, came along with a child and two men and demanded to see our transit log. We explained that we are an EU boat and therefore did not have, or need, a transit log. We gave her our DEKPA to inspect. Her response was to tell us to go to the customs office with €20 as we do not have the correct paperwork. She insisted that we needed a 'declaration' to travel around the Greek islands. We insisted, more strongly, that we did not so she made a phone call, thanked us for our time and left!

With hindsight our first response should have been to ask for some form of identification. And our second should have been to show her the document linked to above.

Be warned - there are still customs officers (if indeed that's what she was) in Greece that don't know their job.

First line of call in Grece ,Croatia and Turkey is , show me your ID unless their are in uniform , even if some guy comes up with an photo badge ,pinned on him , it don't mean nothing , I like to see document to show he is aloud to charge fees or tell me where I can or can't moor .
I doubt very much if a custom office would turn up with a child in hand .

 

[Tony Cross]

First line of call in Grece ,Croatia and Turkey is , show me your ID unless their are in uniform , even if some guy comes up with an photo badge ,pinned on him , it don't mean nothing , I like to see document to show he is aloud to charge fees or tell me where I can or can't moor .
I doubt very much if a custom office would turn up with a child in hand .

Agreed. In addition, in Greece, demand to see a proper, pro-forma and stamped receipt for any money you are asked to pay. You do not have to pay for anything in Greece if you do not receive a receipt.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Agreed. In addition, in Greece, demand to see a proper, pro-forma and stamped receipt for any money you are asked to pay. You do not have to pay for anything in Greece if you do not receive a receipt.

Indeed - in Andros in 2014 we were asked for mooring fees with no credentials and he would not give a receipt. We didn't pay. He came back with the port police - dressed in whites and lost of gold braid. He still wouldn't give me a receipt - so I didn't pay. They left. Of course that started everyone else doing the same thing!

 

[vyv_cox]

Indeed - in Andros in 2014 we were asked for mooring fees with no credentials and he would not give a receipt. We didn't pay. He came back with the port police - dressed in whites and lost of gold braid. He still wouldn't give me a receipt - so I didn't pay. They left. Of course that started everyone else doing the same thing!

Lots of them are wise to that now. Receipt books don't cost much! Marineros at Kalymnos, Lipsi and several others try to charge for taking your lines and will give you a worthless receipt if you ask.

 

[macd]

The concept of not paying before a receipt is issued (which I think also applies in Italy), has always struck me as odd.

Receipt, OED: "A written or printed statement acknowledging that something has been paid for".
So, having received acknowledgement that you've paid, what's to stop you just walking away? (Simple honesty, of course, and maybe the possibility of being brained, but where's the legal logic?)
Perhaps 'receipt' means something subtly different in Greek.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The concept of not paying before a receipt is issued (which I think also applies in Italy), has always struck me as odd.

Receipt, OED: "A written or printed statement acknowledging that something has been paid for".
So, having received acknowledgement that you've paid, what's to stop you just walking away? (Simple honesty, of course, and maybe the possibility of being brained, but where's the legal logic?)
Perhaps 'receipt' means something subtly different in Greek.

Chicken and egg!

 

[Tony Cross]

Lots of them are wise to that now. Receipt books don't cost much! Marineros at Kalymnos, Lipsi and several others try to charge for taking your lines and will give you a worthless receipt if you ask.

Which is why I said 'proper receipt'. A basic receipt book is not what any genuine official will use, they all are pro-forma with a letterhead usually identifying the Demos. If still in doubt insist that you will only pay them inside the port police office.

 

[vyv_cox]

Easily said but often not so easy in practice. We have berthed at Kalymnos many times and know the regular guy quite well. When we pay him for berthing, water and electricity we have never had a receipt and are perfectly happy with that. Last year another man, wearing a hi-vis jacket, waved us into a place. We assumed he was replacing/standing in for the usual guy. In fact he turned out to be additional and wanted money simply for taking our lines, which the usual guy does as a free part of the service. The two are often seen together now, so it's not as if the new one is trying to take advantage of the usual man, just of us. Not easy to refuse to pay once lines have been taken but we will know next time. He gave me a receipt when I asked but not until he had gone somewhere to buy a receipt book!

Very similar situation at Lipsi. A man took our lines and later came back for money. We assumed this was the port fee, which has often been free in the past. He gave us a receipt without being asked. We were surprised later when a PP lady arrived to charge everybody for berthing fees. I went back to the first guy to query it, he said we paid him for 'mooring' and the PP for 'marina'.

 

[duncan99210]

The Greeks have been trying hard to get folks used to the idea of expecting a receipt/invoice for all transactions. The way their mindset works is that the seller/service provider produces a 'bill' on his tax office authorised till or in his preprinted receipt book. He presents this 'bill' to you and you pay across the money demanded. The 'bill' them becomes your 'receipt'. As I understand Greek law, unless this process is followed you are not obliged to pay anything.

I wouldn't pay anything to folks demanding money on quaysides unless they produce a demos (local council) authorised receipt book. The real folks will be only too happy to show you their book, the shifty chancers either won't have a book at all or it will be one bought from the local shop. I've always been polite with these folks but equally have always offered to pay them in the port police office so as to prevent double charging. Most shrug their shoulders and then suggest that anything I might care to give them as a tip for taking my lines would be welcome....... They then wind up with a tip but somewhat less generous than they were originally trying to con me out of.

 

[Thedreamoneday]

I wouldn't pay anything to folks demanding money on quaysides unless they produce a demos (local council) authorised receipt book.

Duncan, is there anything specific to look for on one of these authorised books?

Thanks

 

[jimbaerselman]

Duncan, is there anything specific to look for on one of these authorised books?

Thanks

For written receipts, a tax number, perforated on each page.
For till receipts, a tax number on the print out.

Anyone offering a service on the quayside is entitled to ask for payment. But you don't have to pay unless you're offered a receipt which includes his tax number.

In ports which regularly handled large vessels, there are shipping union recognised rope handlers. More than 10 years ago, in a some ports, if one of these handled your ropes they charged a standardised fee of around €50. And if there was any argument, they just called port police, who'd back them up. I suffered this indignity in Zakinthos.

On further investigation, I was told by a reliable source that this was one of many legal "protected practices". What was illegal was that in some locations the money was pocketed without record, and a percentage given to local port police. This, of course, created a market for non-union member scams.

The "don't pay without a receipt" legislation is aimed to remove this type of lower level corruption.

 

[sailaboutvic]

For written receipts, a tax number, perforated on each page.
For till receipts, a tax number on the print out.

Anyone offering a service on the quayside is entitled to ask for payment. But you don't have to pay unless you're offered a receipt which includes his tax number.

I not sure that's quite right Jim . Other wise I would be the first to go and get a tax number and stand on the quay side and ask for payment .
Like any other place to be able to stand on a quay side and legally be able to charge you have to have the permission of the local port or town authorities , my suggestion is if anyone other then another yachtie offers to take your line just say no thank you and deal with it your self , most of the time your better off any way .

 

[wwalsh]

receipt books are no longer required to be perforated

 

[jimbaerselman]

receipt books are no longer required to be perforated

Noted; thanks. I'll be in Greece discussing this subject in some detail with one of my sources for Greek taxation issues in March.

Vic

Yes, I was being pedantic. Anyone is entitled to ask for payment.

But if they don't have "a permission" of any sort, you don't have to pay them - they're part of the black economy. The current "proof" they're not part of the black economy is a receipt - which (I'll check in March!) should have a tax number.

This whole business of receipts is still honoured more by omission than by compliance.

With respect to tax numbers, if people don't have them, they can't hold bank accounts, own property or vehicles, qualify for any state aid etc etc.

In fact, they belong to the well over 10% illegal resident population of Greece, a large proportion of whom are best described as agricultural slaves, living in polythene dormitories, credited no more than €1 or €2 an hour, much of which is deducted as "rent" or repayment of loans which paid for their passage from Bangladesh or wherever.

 

[duncan99210]

Most of the local authority receipt books will have a heading, usually centred round a version of the Hellenic Government shield (blue shield with a broad white cross, surrounded by a blue laurel wreath). Lettering will be in the Greek alphabet but part of it will usually be recognisable as the name of the port. As I said, anyone who is really working for the demos will be only too happy to show you this book before seeking payment. I've yet to see one that is less than roughly A4 size. Typically shop bought books are smaller and often don't feature printed headings telling you who it is that is issuing the receipt.

 

[Thedreamoneday]

Thanks for the replies.