New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[nimbusgb]

You might be interested in reading this:-
http://www.boatinternational.com/bu...rship-through-off-shore-corporate-structures/

I'm interested in why I should read your article? i read it and you seem to be supporting exactly my point. Did you mean to address that to sailaboutvic? If not can you please elucidate!

BTW the red stuff is very cute but doesn't add much imho!

 

[jimbaerselman]

However, avoid Foinikounta where it is said there is a particular Grecofile who might just shop you to the authorities!

"it is said" - by whom?

I have been vilified as some sort of xenophobe and not just by regular members of the forum but by prominent leaders of major yachting organisations.

Hmm. I wonder who that might be? Please give a quote of such vilification so that the forum can judge whether or not to banish the offender

unless you (and your little squirt sidekick) are just out to cause trouble.

I didn't know Bob had a sidekick . . .

Squirt and I have history.

Please see post #716 -

You really cause me some confusion. When I proposed what Chris has written in his letter you immediately accused me of being some sort of xenophobic Satan!

Strong and bitter words indeed. Please tell me where to find your proposal so that I can see what sort of apology is in order . . .

I'll repeat the request. Please tell us the quotes which lead you to use language which offends some forum readers. If apologies are in order from me, I'll give them.

 

[Retired in Crete]

I just cannot believe that this thread is now 104 pages mainly bitching about a new Greek tax!
A few thoughts (and facts) in no particular order.
Greece is flat broke. It is desperate for cash and applying new taxes to anything they can think of as well as firing as many civil servants as they can get away with. Another 15,000 are due to go this year. Many workers have not been paid for months. A Greek friend of mine qualified for his pension last June – he has not received a penny so far! Take a prescription to the pharmacy and you have to pay in full and claim it back from the authorities. This is because the health authority (IKA) has not paid the chemists for months. Some drugs are in short supply because the suppliers will not give more credit and, again, they have not been paid. Greek pensions have been cut by 30%. Almost every month new taxes are announced and accountants just cannot keep up with the ever changing regulations. Taxes in Greece bear no relation to your income! You have a certain size boat and the tax office tells you what your income must be for you to be able to afford it and then they tax you on their assumed income amount. Ditto if you have a “luxury car”. Heaven help you if you have a swimming pool as well! Do you get the picture? Greece needs cash and doesn’t care where it comes from or whether it is fair or not. They cut or don’t pay the pensioners and when the oldies cannot pay the property taxes they confiscate their houses. The first lot are going through the courts this week. Is it any wonder that the suicide rate is going through the roof? If you don’t like the boat tax don’t bitch about it, you will get little sympathy from the Greeks, just stay away or get out ASAP. (Rant over!)

How will it be collected? I suspect it will be in exactly the same way as car tax is collected. You download a two part form from the net (saves the govt. the cost of the paper) and take it to any bank and pay. The bank keeps one part of the form, stamps the other half and returns it to you as a receipt. You will need to take ID and boat reg papers with you to confirm the length.

Will you be caught if you don’t pay? I am sure that if you are marina based your papers will be inspected. If you are in Greek waters “on passage” I would suggest the odds are below zero. Coastguard boats have no fuel! The last time I spoke to a coastguard (in Samos) he told me they had to have a whip round to buy fuel to cross the harbour to load other supplies! (The road traffic police are in the same situation. Where I live they have to pay cash for petrol as no filling station will extend any more credit to them. This is why there are few police cars around and they now prefer two up on a motor bike.)

Don’t blame the port police for their lack of enthusiasm, they probably haven’t been paid for a while and are wondering if they will be made redundant at the end of the month. The whole of the Municipal Police were declared redundant a few months back where I live. Anyway, they have many other duties to carry out other than collect cash.

John

 

[sailaboutvic]

Proving 'ownership' is far from simple. Especially in a Greek Port Police office in the middle of tourist season. There are so many ways to obfuscate ownership if one is a determined tax evader. If nothing else the SSR document is a simple laminated piece of paper. No way to check its validity!

Such is the way of the world. You don't stay rich by spending money, you stay rich by employing tactics to avoid paying money you can avoid paying. Often it's as much part of the game as making the stuff in the first place.

I don't think you read what I wrote , we are all suppose to carry the original bill of sale to show VAT has been paid and who is the owner of the yacht , this has nothing to do with the SSR most of us know the SSR don't mean a thing , other then the keeper of the boat . So going back to what I said when we are approach by the PP and ask for document if they bother to ask for the bill of sale it would prove who the owner is , greek Brit or what every very simple .

High of the season or not if the PP can't be bothered then you can't Blane the Greeks for avoiding to pay tax .

And lets stop just having a go at the greeks for not paying their taxes , There are hundred of Brits, Germans, French and others who are in Greece over the years and set them self up servicing yachts in some way or another and most of it is black money .
No wonder there are people on the forum scream that yachts should stay .

 

[sailaboutvic]

I just cannot believe that this thread is now 104 pages mainly bitching about a new Greek tax!
A few thoughts (and facts) in no particular order.
Greece is flat broke. It is desperate for cash and applying new taxes to anything they can think of as well as firing as many civil servants as they can get away with. Another 15,000 are due to go this year. Many workers have not been paid for months. A Greek friend of mine qualified for his pension last June – he has not received a penny so far! Take a prescription to the pharmacy and you have to pay in full and claim it back from the authorities. This is because the health authority (IKA) has not paid the chemists for months. Some drugs are in short supply because the suppliers will not give more credit and, again, they have not been paid. Greek pensions have been cut by 30%. Almost every month new taxes are announced and accountants just cannot keep up with the ever changing regulations. Taxes in Greece bear no relation to your income! You have a certain size boat and the tax office tells you what your income must be for you to be able to afford it and then they tax you on their assumed income amount. Ditto if you have a “luxury car”. Heaven help you if you have a swimming pool as well! Do you get the picture? Greece needs cash and doesn’t care where it comes from or whether it is fair or not. They cut or don’t pay the pensioners and when the oldies cannot pay the property taxes they confiscate their houses. The first lot are going through the courts this week. Is it any wonder that the suicide rate is going through the roof? If you don’t like the boat tax don’t bitch about it, you will get little sympathy from the Greeks, just stay away or get out ASAP. (Rant over!)

How will it be collected? I suspect it will be in exactly the same way as car tax is collected. You download a two part form from the net (saves the govt. the cost of the paper) and take it to any bank and pay. The bank keeps one part of the form, stamps the other half and returns it to you as a receipt. You will need to take ID and boat reg papers with you to confirm the length.

Will you be caught if you don’t pay? I am sure that if you are marina based your papers will be inspected. If you are in Greek waters “on passage” I would suggest the odds are below zero. Coastguard boats have no fuel! The last time I spoke to a coastguard (in Samos) he told me they had to have a whip round to buy fuel to cross the harbour to load other supplies! (The road traffic police are in the same situation. Where I live they have to pay cash for petrol as no filling station will extend any more credit to them. This is why there are few police cars around and they now prefer two up on a motor bike.)

Don’t blame the port police for their lack of enthusiasm, they probably haven’t been paid for a while and are wondering if they will be made redundant at the end of the month. The whole of the Municipal Police were declared redundant a few months back where I live. Anyway, they have many other duties to carry out other than collect cash.

John

John I totally agree with you people should stop bitching about it and get out , but one thing for sure if the thousand of yacht did leave , Greece would be a lot worst off then it is now , marinas would fold leaving hundreds of people unemployed and from the small guy who sell fruit and veg to the local shop , cafe and anyone else who life depend on the yachting trade all the small island would collapse .
most of us are not rich yachtsman's quite a lot have work hard all there life's to put away enough money to live out there dream , my self and I sure there many other still pay tax Back home on the small income we have and now their are being told we have to pay tax in a country we are visiting , and not by the week but by the year . Go on Greece go the whole way and charge every tourist who fly into Greece a yearly tax .
Yes Greece has problem but so have most other EU country and I don't see other trying to tax the hell out of other traveler, because at the end of the day that's what most of us are travellers and tourist , just because we use a boat to do it in , it make us no less of a traveler then some one who flys from one country to the next .

John reading or other posting it seen that you live in Greece and also own a yacht , in your case YES you should pay the tax after all you are living in the country which is a totally different to some of us who just sail there for a few months a years , so I can see why you happy to except the tax .

 

[duncan99210]

I've been following this with interest. As far as I can see, this is a tax on ALL boats in Greek waters, not just foreign flagged boats. So no whinging about it being an unfair tax on visitors: it matters not if you're Greek or British, you pay the tax. That, by the way, complies with EU law: you can tax your own citizens and visitors, what you can't do is only to tax visitors.
If you don't like the tax, then leave or don't bother coming to Greece in the first place. If you feel particularly aggrieved, please go and find somewhere else to have your tantrum. Constant childish sniping at those trying to have a proper discussion on our behalf with the Greek authorities achieves nothing other than irritation.
Thanks to Jim for all his quiet endeavour on our behalf: I for one have a much clearer picture of how I will be affected by the tax and the likely timescale of its introduction.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Answer from Minister of Shipping (Useful)

Oh my goodness gracious me... I had a reply by return to my email requesting clarification!

Dear Chris
Please find our reply in italics. We will know more, once the Ministry of Finance (MoF) issue the instructions on the implementation of the levy.
Kind regards,

Ioanna Donta


2014/1/22 Chris Robb

Ionna, thank you for your reply.

It does not however deal with points 1, 2 an 3 of my email. However I am glad to hear that you will charging on part meters - which makes a lot of sense.

So these are my main un-answered points which are concerning a lot of UK yachtsmen. Here they are re-tabled:

1. The law states "in Greek waters and Docked". It has been assumed by the Cruising Association - who have written to you- that this means when a yacht is ashore, it is not liable for the tax. Is this correct? Please clarify - if the yacht is stored OUT of the water is it exempt from tax during the period it is out of the water?


​

It is not yet clear, however it seems reasonable not to apply the levy on the yachts stored ashore.

2. My Yacht - 12.3 Meters - is in the water at Leros all the year round. I only use it for 9 weeks a year, May June, and September. Will I have to pay an annual tax, or will I pay on the basis of when the yacht is used? ie 3 or 4 months tax. If there is a difference in treatment between in and out of the water, there will be a huge distortion at the boat yards with people leaving if they cannot get a berth ashore for the winter. It would be mad to make such a distinction.


​

When the yacht is used for a few weeks it is cheaper to pay per month, which in your case would be:
1 month = 123 euros
2 months = 246 euros
3 months = 369 euros
The Law implies “calendar” month.
Anyhow, we wait for the instructions of the MoF as regards the implementation of the levy and whether the owners of the yachts, which are idle in the marinas, will be granted reasonable time to decide whether to pay the levy and stay in Greece or leave without paying.

​

3. It has again been assumed that the tax is a monthly one, but payable in advance and annually in advance for a discount. Is this correct, or is it an Annual Tax with no monthly allowance?
It is vitally important for us to know that for those that only sail for 2 or 3 months of the year, that they can pay just 2 or 3 months. Your answer was not clear as to whether the tax was an annual tax with the facility to pay by monthly instalments, of a true monthly tax. Please explain in conjunction with 1 above.
​

For the yachts 7m-12m (LOA) the levy is to be paid per year. For the yachts over 12m (LOA) it is up to the owner (or user) of the yacht to decide whether to pay per month or per year

​

So a number of points now seem to be clear.

1. for over 12 meters It IS a monthly tax - but looks like it is from 1st to 30th of each month. This would be a problem for the Port Police as everyone will go to them on the last day of the month. Much better to have rolling monthly dates from an administrative point of view.

2. Tax on Out of the water yachts - This is not yet clear - JimB could you please take note as this conflicts with your previous answer.

I will be writing again with a few more suggestions such as 1 above.

​

 

[jimbaerselman]

But you are signing yourself "JimB for the CA" I will therefore repeat my question

"Do you have the authorisation of the Cruising Association Council to sign yourself as "JimB for the CA"?

Simple enough question, I would have thought?

Only on matters within my competence, which includes Greek regulations. Also, I only use that signature when I'm dealing with established facts which have already been confirmed, published to members and released to the press.

Your original question - "does "JimB for the CA" indicate that you now have the authority of CA Council to express the views of the membership as a whole on this matter?" was a little along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife". It implied that I did not have previous authority, or authority.

CA Council have been fully informed since the earliest stages on this matter, and since November delegated responsiblity for further research and communications to myself and Beryl, CA's permanent (and very able) press officer.

 

[jimbaerselman]

2. Tax on Out of the water yachts - This is not yet clear - JimB could you please take note as this conflicts with your previous answer.

Chris,

Noted the "out of the water". You'll also note her answer about "months", implying the possibility of "out of use" as an extension of the idea of "out of the water".

Suggest you strip your email out of the post - keep it away from spammers.

 

[PLEIAS]

Only on matters within my competence, which includes Greek regulations. Also, I only use that signature when I'm dealing with established facts which have already been confirmed, published to members and released to the press.

Your original question - "does "JimB for the CA" indicate that you now have the authority of CA Council to express the views of the membership as a whole on this matter?" was a little along the lines of "when did you stop beating your wife". It implied that I did not have previous authority, or authority.

CA Council have been fully informed since the earliest stages on this matter, and since November delegated responsiblity for further research and communications to myself and Beryl, CA's permanent (and very able) press officer.

Since some of you don't like the responsible answers that you get from Jim why don't you move on to any other forum and join people like you that are just whinning about everything so as to fill their empty winter days, and leave the rest of the members alone?Oh and by the way enough about Greece and how the country should be runned -if you want so much to change things do it in your own country and leave mine alone or better try to do in your own country a mere 10% of what you re getting away with down here and see what happens.

 

[Glyka]

I don't think you read what I wrote , we are all suppose to carry the original bill of sale to show VAT has been paid and who is the owner of the yacht , this has nothing to do with the SSR most of us know the SSR don't mean a thing , other then the keeper of the boat . So going back to what I said when we are approach by the PP and ask for document if they bother to ask for the bill of sale it would prove who the owner is , greek Brit or what every very simple .

The boat has been sold to Smith & Wesson Ltd, channel islands which (S&W Ltd.) is owned by the bearer of the one share issued. The company hires/appoints Mr. Papadopoulos as skipper.
Last time I checked the scheme costs about 500 GBP a year.
Do you get the idea?

 

[RupertW]

Since some of you don't like the responsible answers that you get from Jim why don't you move on to any other forum and join people like you that are just whinning about everything so as to fill their empty winter days, and leave the rest of the members alone?Oh and by the way enough about Greece and how the country should be runned -if you want so much to change things do it in your own country and leave mine alone or better try to do in your own country a mere 10% of what you re getting away with down here and see what happens.

I think that is fair if Greeks stop telling us that Germany is at fault for paying huge sums of German taxpayers money to pay off Greek debts, and stop talking about Greeks paying their fair share of taxes when we all know that it's a cash economy based on avoiding what they owe their own government.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Chris,

Noted the "out of the water". You'll also note her answer about "months", implying the possibility of "out of use" as an extension of the idea of "out of the water".

Suggest you strip your email out of the post - keep it away from spammers.

Done - thanks for the heads up!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Will people stop telling other to stop bitching about the tax please , for a start everyone for or against the tax has an right to an option and as this is a public forum every one got the right to say his peace , if you don't want to hear it then don't log in.
If people as you call it didn't bitch , none of this information we are all getting would be here to day , the forum would had faded away .

The CA is doing a great job now but please remember the first comment made direct or indirect , it went some thing like , "why should the CA waste time and money for a few member sailing in Greece . " it was only after the forum got on the way that things started to hot up on here did the CA get involve ,

What is a shame is the personal attack on some people just because other don't agree on their option ., at the end of the day we all in the same boat .

 

[sailaboutvic]

The boat has been sold to Smith & Wesson Ltd, channel islands which (S&W Ltd.) is owned by the bearer of the one share issued. The company hires/appoints Mr. Papadopoulos as skipper.
Last time I checked the scheme costs about 500 GBP a year.
Do you get the idea?

You answered your own question , it not Greek own , but come on we not talking about Mr Pepadopoulos here and his three mil super yacht 100 euro a mts do you think he going to be borther , if Mr Pepadopoulos wanted to avoild paying tax he find another way , what we talking about Is the hundreds of Mr every day Mr pepadopoulos with there twenty to fifty Thousand Euro yacht who find it easy to reg under SSR at a cost of around £35 or what every it is now , them type of Mr Pepedopouios are not going to be looking at starting up offshore company and prob have no idea how to start one any way starting an offshore company isn't about just paying 500GBP you need director , an registered address , accountant the list goes on , for what ? A twenty thousand Euros yacht .

People with money will always find a way .

 

[vyv_cox]

You answered your own question , it not Greek own , but come on we not talking about Mr Pepadopoulos here and his three mil super yacht 100 euro a mts do you think he going to be borther , if Mr Pepadopoulos wanted to avoild paying tax he find another way , what we talking about Is the hundreds of Mr every day Mr pepadopoulos with there twenty to fifty Thousand Euro yacht who find it easy to reg under SSR at a cost of around £35 or what every it is now , them type of Mr Pepedopouios are not going to be looking at starting up offshore company and prob have no idea how to start one any way .
People with money will always find a way .

There have been several threads about Greek and Turkish boats flying USA flags, registered in Delaware. It costs very little to set up a company there and register a boat to it. I have seen several modest sized boats registered in this way, from around 30 ft upwards. Definitely not restricted to millionaires.

Most of the big mobos I see in Greece are UK registered, again no doubt not in Greek names. There is a cluster of large Dutch registered mobos in Oinoussa, also presumably belonging to 'hidden' Greek owners.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Since some of you don't like the responsible answers that you get from Jim " I have no problem with Jim or his answer , personal I think jim doing an ok job "
why don't you move on to any other forum and join people like you that are just whinning about everything so as to fill their empty winter days, " the only thing I am whining about is an unfair tax your country want to charge everyone for traveling through " and leave the rest of the members alone?Oh and by the way enough about Greece and how the country should be runned - " personal i am not at all interested in how greece should be run i will leave that to greece has they are doing such a good job of it but i am interested in not paying this very unfair tax " if you want so much to change things do it in your own country and leave mine alone or better try to do in your own country a mere 10% of what you re getting away with down here and see what happens. " I have sailed in Greece over 13 years and I have always paid my way Greece have had thousand from me and other like me so please give me a brake and remember it years and years of Greek people who have stole millions from Greece that put Greece where it is now not the sailor from all over Europe who have done nothing but spend money In your country and help Geek every day people to improve their live [/
Sorry if my reply isn't to your liking .

 

[1bobt]

Since some of you don't like the responsible answers that you get from Jim " I have no problem with Jim or his answer , personal I think jim doing an ok job "
why don't you move on to any other forum and join people like you that are just whinning about everything so as to fill their empty winter days, " the only thing I am whining about is an unfair tax your country want to charge everyone for traveling through " and leave the rest of the members alone?Oh and by the way enough about Greece and how the country should be runned - " personal i am not at all interested in how greece should be run i will leave that to greece has they are doing such a good job of it but i am interested in not paying this very unfair tax " if you want so much to change things do it in your own country and leave mine alone or better try to do in your own country a mere 10% of what you re getting away with down here and see what happens. " I have sailed in Greece over 13 years and I have always paid my way Greece have had thousand from me and other like me so please give me a brake and remember it years and years of Greek people who have stole millions from Greece that put Greece where it is now not the sailor from all over Europe who have done nothing but spend money In your country and help Geek every day people to improve their live [/
Sorry if my reply isn't to your liking .

Totally agree.... And if you are brave enough to ask for a Full VAT receipt with tax number, you would have to take the person to the medical centre to re-start their heart

 

[sailaboutvic]

There have been several threads about Greek and Turkish boats flying USA flags, registered in Delaware. It costs very little to set up a company there and register a boat to it. I have seen several modest sized boats registered in this way, from around 30 ft upwards. Definitely not restricted to millionaires.

Most of the big mobos I see in Greece are UK registered, again no doubt not in Greek names. There is a cluster of large Dutch registered mobos in Oinoussa, also presumably belonging to 'hidden' Greek owners.

I totally Agee with you , there are hundreds of modest size yacht and that's the ones I am talking about , but just because they are registered with the SSR or any other country it don't mean it not in the owners name , and I know a few taverna owners with yacht which are registered in they names but in the UK .my yacht is Registered with the SSR but it in my name .

The yacht in Turkey registered in Delaware are registered there for other reason nothing to do with Greeks tax or law and I not going into that . a Greek millionaire who wanted to keep his Mobo in Greece wouldn't be register it in Delaware believe me unless he wants to move it every 90 days .
As far as off shore company goes the days when you could get one from the exchange and mart for a few hundred pounds have gone , if it was that easy we all have one and unless you have millions you want to lose it wouldn't be worth the hustle , for sure not just to have a twenty thousand yacht not in your name .
So we go back to what I said before , if the tax was imposed on mooring fees , marina fees, and harbour fees , they would still get the taxes from everyone including Greek who keep there off shore registered company yacht not in there name and it would be a much fair tax for everyone and people who want to sail in Greece for some weeks or months wouldn't be penalises with hundreds or some case thousand of. Euros .

 

[Retired in Crete]

I think that is fair if Greeks stop telling us that Germany is at fault for paying huge sums of German taxpayers money to pay off Greek debts,

Let's get this straight once and for all!

German tax payers DID NOT PAY OFF GREEK DEBTS! The EU and other organisations borrowed money from the IMF at 2% interest and LOANED IT TO GREECE at 6% interest. Furthermore Greece used 82% of the LOANS to pay off French and German banks who would have gone bust if Greece had defaulted.

So Germany arranged the LOANS to save German and French Banks!

It was all about saving German banks not about helping Greece.

John