New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[BurnitBlue]

Just consider this scenario.

You pay this "Tax" in January and off you go to spend your personal maintenance income on food, clothing entertaining etc in various parts of Greece. Then, third week in June, an illness befalls one of you and you must return your boat to it's base mooring where you decide to lift it from the water and lay it up so that you can return to the UK for treatment.

Now, knowing Greece and it's talent for efficient bureaucracy and efficient infra-structure as you obviously do, what chance do you think you stand of getting back the "unused portion" of your tax?

Of course, the moon IS sometimes blue in Greece, isn't it!

I am a bit slow I agree, but now I understand why so many posters ridicule your ridiculous views. Your reply to my post about the subject of "out of use" is 180 degrees out of phase.

My post was in answer to people who think that if their boat is laid up ashore "out of use" from JB's post no tax need be paid. I reminded them that "out of use" means exactly that. The very second you step aboard your boat for maintenance or a cup of coffee, the boat will be considered "in use" and liable for tax even if it is hauled out. The key phrase from JB's post was that "stored ashore" is being replace by "out of use".

Why is that so difficult for you, the great know-all to understand?

 

[grumpygit]

Its obvious from your ranting, both here and the lounge that you need help,have you contacted your Doctor regarding counselling?

He might of all ready done so, he just ain't taking his meds.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Surely it must be quite easy to determine the ownership of a boat. The Government can impound it for some violation and put it up for auction, redeemable only by the owner and not his representative.

The owner would soon put his head above the parapet.

Even if a "Straw Dog" could be substituted the "Straw Dog" would have to take the roll of "owner" to release the yacht after paying the bills. Job done?

BTW I am not a lawyer. Just asking.

 

[grumpygit]

Afraid your understanding of the complexities of boat ownership, title and registration seems very limited. The Bill Of Sale is just evidence of change of title - nothing to do with VAT. There is no obligation to carry the document. It does not necessarily show how much was paid for the boat, nor who owns it.

There is no simple way of determining who owns a boat, nor who has title, nor who is responsible for its debts. This will become obvious to you when you read the the Greek law which makes a number of people potentially responsible for paying this tax. A boat is not like a car in the UK where one single person is the designated keeper and responsible for any taxes levied on the car or penalties incurred in the operation of the car.

This lack of clarity has always been a problem for governments seeking to apply taxes to boats, as the Italians found out. In many ways the proposed Greek tax, if it is implemented properly overcomes many of the difficulties others have experienced. Very simple. If you do not have a receipt for the tax on your boat you will be fined (or probably the boat impounded). It is up to the owner/operator/skipper etc to fight amongst themselves who pays.

The VAT content of it's original invoice is a bit of a farce. I could buy a yacht pay the VAT run it through a set up business and claim the tax back, deregister and/or re flag and sell on, other scenarios could also adopted. Technically you still have its original tax invoice but it's not VAT paid because it's been reclaimed. I have the original invoice from the builder to the German guy l bought off but who's to say the tax wasn't claimed back.
As for proof of ownership this can only done by a bill of sale from the previous owner. There is nothing in law that states a boat has to have a deed of title unless you wish a lawyer to draw a personal one up.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Burnitblue, in addition, the Ministry has made it quite clear in their "terms and conditions" that if you pay, no rebates will be made for periods the boat is out of use/left Greek waters!

For those arguing about ownership. Ownership has been made quite irrelevant in the "terms and conditions". The user of any boat in Greek waters is equally liable to pay the tax, and any penalties if a valid receipt is not aboard. As Tranona made clear, the user may well have a later argument with the owner . . . but meantime, the tax has been paid. Another thought about ownership; all a Bill of sale proves is that you once owned the boat . . . not that you are the current owner.

Sailaboutvic; a minor correction to your post "it was only after the forum got on the way that things started to hot up on here did the CA get involve". If you check the first post on this thread, you'll see it quoted the CA news item. PLEIAS originally told me the law was being put before the Greek government. He gave me some Greek web site references. I researched the references for the CA, and wrote up that news item. Chatelaine picked it up - possibly through one of CA's first press releases to YM in early November.

My heartfelt thanks to PLEIAS, who is a very busy man, for alerting us.

Here are a few facts I have picked up from replies to "medregs" on the CA web page, and from those attending two events CA ran for Med sailors since early November.
(1)Visiting yachtsmen represent rather less than 10% of the total boat park in Greece (a lot more around Levkada and Preveza, but a lot less everywhere else).
(2)Well over 100 people have told us how they plan to react to the tax as published. Over 80% said that Greece remains good value for money, and their plans remain unchanged. About 10% said they won't make up their minds until the details have been clarified. And 6 told us they'll be moving out at the first opportunity or won't visit.

This is a small sample, biased because it was mainly from people "who wanted us to do something about it". But it shows that not more than 1% or 2% of the boat park is likely to drop Greece as a cruising option.

No commercially minded tax man is going to discount his prices by more than 2% to recover these few, especially when his assessment is that this is a price sensitive group, with the least to spend within the Greek economy. This is the reason the CA decided not to fight for the cancellation of the tax (as a few asked us to do). That would have been an un-winnable battle. Instead, we are asking the Ministry of Marine to make cruising in Greece a much more user-friendly experience. That's a winnable battle.

 

[grumpygit]

WE have no responsibility whatsoever to assist Greece in getting itself out of it's present financial dificulties.

I think we probably do, we are in there country and subject to the laws, taxation or otherwise. I think we all know in general how it's going to work and those who are planning to stay in Greece will have to budget for it. The ranting on of some on this forum is a wasted emotion and as many have said, if one isn't prepared to take in on the chin, vote with your keep and leave. Do l agree with the tax, No. Do l want to pay, No. Will l pay the tax, Yes. It's all part of life's changes and we'll all have to get used to them.

 

[1bobt]

Burnitblue, in addition, the Ministry has made it quite clear in their "terms and conditions" that if you pay, no rebates will be made for periods the boat is out of use/left Greek waters!

For those arguing about ownership. Ownership has been made quite irrelevant in the "terms and conditions". The user of any boat in Greek waters is equally liable to pay the tax, and any penalties if a valid receipt is not aboard. As Tranona made clear, the user may well have a later argument with the owner . . . but meantime, the tax has been paid. Another thought about ownership; all a Bill of sale proves is that you once owned the boat . . . not that you are the current owner.

Sailaboutvic; a minor correction to your post "it was only after the forum got on the way that things started to hot up on here did the CA get involve". If you check the first post on this thread, you'll see it quoted the CA news item. PLEIAS originally told me the law was being put before the Greek government. He gave me some Greek web site references. I researched the references for the CA, and wrote up that news item. Chatelaine picked it up - possibly through one of CA's first press releases to YM in early November.

My heartfelt thanks to PLEIAS, who is a very busy man, for alerting us.

Here are a few facts I have picked up from replies to "medregs" on the CA web page, and from those attending two events CA ran for Med sailors since early November.
(1)Visiting yachtsmen represent rather less than 10% of the total boat park in Greece (a lot more around Levkada and Preveza, but a lot less everywhere else).
(2)Well over 100 people have told us how they plan to react to the tax as published. Over 80% said that Greece remains good value for money, and their plans remain unchanged. About 10% said they won't make up their minds until the details have been clarified. And 6 told us they'll be moving out at the first opportunity or won't visit.

This is a small sample, biased because it was mainly from people "who wanted us to do something about it". But it shows that not more than 1% or 2% of the boat park is likely to drop Greece as a cruising option.

No commercially minded tax man is going to discount his prices by more than 2% to recover these few, especially when his assessment is that this is a price sensitive group, with the least to spend within the Greek economy. This is the reason the CA decided not to fight for the cancellation of the tax (as a few asked us to do). That would have been an un-winnable battle. Instead, we are asking the Ministry of Marine to make cruising in Greece a much more user-friendly experience. That's a winnable battle.

We will see how it all pans out this time next year
Thanks for you input.

cheers bob

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I am a bit slow I agree, but now I understand why so many posters ridicule your ridiculous views. Your reply to my post about the subject of "out of use" is 180 degrees out of phase.

My post was in answer to people who think that if their boat is laid up ashore "out of use" from JB's post no tax need be paid. I reminded them that "out of use" means exactly that. The very second you step aboard your boat for maintenance or a cup of coffee, the boat will be considered "in use" and liable for tax even if it is hauled out. The key phrase from JB's post was that "stored ashore" is being replace by "out of use".

Why is that so difficult for you, the great know-all to understand?

IS there a real message amidst the personal abuse?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

You are not a Greek citizen and therefore not entitled to representation. You have the choice to keep your boat in Greece and pay the tax or leave. I completely fail to understand what it is you're whining about. If you don't like it, leave. Please just stop clogging up the forum with your self indulgent twaddle.

No! If what information we have is true, I am already in debit to the Greek Finance Ministry as from Jan 1 2014 with absolutely NO choice whatsoever.

Funny that the few who have made abusive responses to my postings are the usual "Greece can do no wrong" brigade. One little s..t even thinks it appropriate to bring my family into it.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

The VAT content of it's original invoice is a bit of a farce. I could buy a yacht pay the VAT run it through a set up business and claim the tax back, deregister and/or re flag and sell on, other scenarios could also adopted. Technically you still have its original tax invoice but it's not VAT paid because it's been reclaimed. I have the original invoice from the builder to the German guy l bought off but who's to say the tax wasn't claimed back.
As for proof of ownership this can only done by a bill of sale from the previous owner. There is nothing in law that states a boat has to have a deed of title unless you wish a lawyer to draw a personal one up.

This will probably get another abusive response from you but, what the hell, just for information, VAT "reclaimed" does not nullify the "event" of paying tax in the first place. They are seperate events. The vessel will still be deemed "VAT Paid"

 

[duncan99210]

No! If what information we have is true, I am already in debit to the Greek Finance Ministry as from Jan 1 2014 with absolutely NO choice whatsoever.

Funny that the few who have made abusive responses to my postings are the usual "Greece can do no wrong" brigade. One little s..t even thinks it appropriate to bring my family into it.

I have never said that Greece can do no wrong, merely that it is their country and they can do as they see fit. Leave now, before the tax is implemented and stop whinging. I really can't understand your stance on the topic. Probably you're simply a troll and not willing to accept simple facts when you're confronted with them. Ignore function now selected for you and your posts, which have got to be amongst the most childish I've seen on any of these forums.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I have never said that Greece can do no wrong, merely that it is their country and they can do as they see fit. Leave now, before the tax is implemented and stop whinging. I really can't understand your stance on the topic. Probably you're simply a troll and not willing to accept simple facts when you're confronted with them. Ignore function now selected for you and your posts, which have got to be amongst the most childish I've seen on any of these forums.

Can't call yourself "Neutral" or in support of "Free Speech" now then, can you?

Those of us with open minds NEVER use the Ignore" option.

(But you will never read this, will you?)

 

[Tranona]

Title and ownership in the context of a private asset like a boat are the same thing. Just which two or more people do you think have an interest in MY boat? Apart from money grabbing, why should any tax be imposed on a private asset of foreigners, anyway? It is just immoral.

It may well be in your case that title and beneficial ownership are both with the same person - it usually is with individuals who have private boats. However, they are not the same thing and it is also common for the title to be with one person (or more likely a company) and beneficial ownership with another - or indeed more than one natural person. That is the problem facing the Greek government as many boats are registered in a way that deliberately hides the true ownership.

Just as an example, a Greek citizen owns a boat, but sets up a UK company to "own" the boat so that it can be on the UK register. He doers not even need to be a director of the company, but his ownership interest is through a contract with the company. This is exactly the kind of arrangement I used with my boat so that it could be registered on the Greek register and operate as as a Greek charter boat. The title was registered by a Greek management company with whom I had an agreement as I was the beneficial owner. When I stopped chartering the Greek company transferred title to me personally.

As Jim has pointed out the new tax is a tax on usage of the boat in Greece NOT ownership, so in a sense it is irrelevant who owns the boat, which is why they have named a number of different people connected with the boat potentially liable to pay. Remember also that debts attach to the boat, not the owner, making it potentially easier to impound the boat for non payment.

 

[Tony Cross]

This will probably get another abusive response from you but, what the hell, just for information, VAT "reclaimed" does not nullify the "event" of paying tax in the first place. They are seperate events. The vessel will still be deemed "VAT Paid"

I think you'll find it does (nullify the VAT paid status). It is certainly the case that if a VAT paid boat is sold outside the EU and then re-imported she looses her VAT paid status and VAT must be paid again.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry Tranona but it seen that it you who don't understand the complexities of boat ownership .
Mine NOT YOURS , BILL OF SALE attached to my original invoice ( which is also a BILL of SALE " shows I am the legal owner on my yacht it also shows I have paid VAT on it and to what company ie Dufour it also shows how I paid for it and in any british court of law , not greek , and I am not a lawyer, I can prove 100% that I am the owner of that yacht , your BILL of sale might say some thing else , I not seen it and you have not seen mine so please don't comment on mine bill of sale .

Unless your vat was paid in Germany or some other country where a certificate of vat paid is supply by the VAT office n the only way I know that VAT can be proved is by the Original bill of sales and invoice ,

You are confusing a bill of Sale with a commercial invoice. The Bill of Sale transfers title. It does not have to show any specific monetary value, never mind VAT (which is only payable if it is a "chargeable event"). All it has to show is a "consideration" to be legal and quite common to use the phrase "for £1 and other considerations" so that nobody apart from the seller and buyer knows exactly how much was paid.

The evidence of VAT is either a commercial invoice (which is not evidence of title) or a receipt direct from customs. The requirement for demonstration that VAT has been paid is only required if the boat is owned by a private person as opposed to a VAT registered entity (which may be a person) and is a business asset. He then only has to show that he has accounted for VAT correctly.

So, once you understand the potential complexity of boat ownership, you will understand the difficulty in taxing "ownership". I used the example of how this is resolved with cars where a similar dilemma exists and the solution is to require every car to be registered to a nominated "keeper" who is responsible for the tax. No such mechanism applies to boats.

 

[Tranona]

This will probably get another abusive response from you but, what the hell, just for information, VAT "reclaimed" does not nullify the "event" of paying tax in the first place. They are seperate events. The vessel will still be deemed "VAT Paid"

I am afraid, once again you are wrong. "Deemed VAT paid" is a very specific term which applies to boats that were 8 years old and in the state in question when that state entered the EU, or in the case of states already in the EC, 1992. So it applies to boats in the UK built prior to 1986 and for example in Croatia in 2013 that were built prior to 2005.

You are also confused about boats that are owned by a VAT registered entity where VAT is reclaimed as an input tax. They are not considered in any way as being "VAT paid", although no liability for VAT exists while they are owned by that entity. However, if it sells the boat, it must account for VAT on the sale value, which of course the buyer can reclaim if it is also a VAT registered entity, but not if the buyer is a private person. As already pointed out, any boat that then changes hands outside the EU, whether VAT has been paid or not previously can potentially become liable again if it re-enters the EU.

Anyway, none of this is relevant to the new Greek tax, which as already pointed out to you is a tax on usage (otherwise known as a circulation tax) and not on ownership and is payable irrespective of whether VAT has been paid or not.

 

[sailaboutvic]

You are confusing a bill of Sale with a commercial invoice. The Bill of Sale transfers title. It does not have to show any specific monetary value, never mind VAT (which is only payable if it is a "chargeable event"). All it has to show is a "consideration" to be legal and quite common to use the phrase "for £1 and other considerations" so that nobody apart from the seller and buyer knows exactly how much was paid.

The evidence of VAT is either a commercial invoice (which is not evidence of title) or a receipt direct from customs. The requirement for demonstration that VAT has been paid is only required if the boat is owned by a private person as opposed to a VAT registered entity (which may be a person) and is a business asset. He then only has to show that he has accounted for VAT correctly.

So, once you understand the potential complexity of boat ownership, you will understand the difficulty in taxing "ownership". I used the example of how this is resolved with cars where a similar dilemma exists and the solution is to require every car to be registered to a nominated "keeper" who is responsible for the tax. No such mechanism applies to boats.

Tranona
Please go back and read what I wrote . At no point did I say the MY bill of sale show any monetary valve or any VAT amount , what it did say was .my bill of sale attached to the original invoice (which is also known as a bill of sale ) That I am the legal owner of the yacht , it also show that I have paid VAT , and so on and so on .
But as it happens my Bill of sale does show the amount I pay for the yacht and who too .
I think you are mistaken the peace of paper that the RYA supply as an easy way to buy a boat ( called BILL OF SALE ) to the legal document I had produce by my solicitor also called BILL OF SALE .
I also think you are getting confused with a sale invoice and a commercial invoice ( we can all play with words if we want too )

So you see , the complexity of boat ownership, isn't that complex after all for me or for the next person when the time come to sell my boat .

"A bill of sale is a legal document made by a 'seller' to a purchaser, reporting that on a specific date, at a specific locality, and for a particular sum of money or other "value received", the seller sold to the purchaser a specific item of personal, or parcel of real, property of which he had lawful possession. It is a written instrument which evidences the transfer of title to personal property from the vendor, seller, to the vendee, buyer."

"A commercial invoice is a document used in foreign trade. It is used as a customs declaration provided by the person or corporation that is exporting an item across international borders.[1] [2] Although there is no standard format, the document must include a few specific pieces of information such as the parties involved in the shipping transaction, the goods being transported, the country of manufacture, and the Harmonized System codes for those goods. A commercial invoice must also include a statement certifying that the invoice is true, and a signature.
A commercial invoice is used to calculate tariffs, international commercial terms (like the Cost in a CIF) and is commonly used for customs purposes."


The real problem with this and so many other forum is everyone an expert , but an expert in what ?

Regarding other comment made by other of ways a invoice showing VAT have been paid but may not have because it been sold though off shore company , I not going to answer that , not sure how many time I already said there ways around every thing if you know how .

And on that note I bid you all good bye as we off sailing and away for the world for a while .

Lets hope we all get some kind of results that we all will be happy with at the end of the day .

 

[Tranona]

Tranona
Please go back and read what I wrote . At no point did I say the MY bill of sale show any monetary valve or any VAT amount , what it did say was .my bill of sale attached to the original invoice (which is also known as a bill of sale ) That I am the legal owner of the yacht , it also show that I have paid VAT , and so on and so on .
But as it happens my Bill of sale does show the amount I pay for the yacht and who too .
I think you are mistaken the peace of paper that the RYA supply as an easy way to buy a boat ( called BILL OF SALE ) to the legal document I had produce by my solicitor also called BILL OF SALE .

So you see , the complexity of boat ownership, isn't that complex after all for me or for the next person when the time come to sell my boat .

Never questioned your ownership status - but as I was trying to point out, there are many other ways that a boat can be "owned". If everybody was as straightforward as you then all this difficulty of applying a tax based on ownership would fall away - but it is not.

Cannot see why you are trying to make a distinction between "your" Bill of Sale and the RYA model one. The latter is perfectly legal and has the same status as yours if it is properly executed.

 

[Aquarella]

I just thought I would share this info I received today from the Basimakapouloi boatyard where my boat is right now.
"We would also like to inform you about the new sailing tax in Greece. A tax which we consider wrong and unfair as far as it concerns the boat owners which are not residents of our country. Without any doubts, this tax will bring the opposite results than expected because of the number of boats that will depart the country, if it finally comes in effect. For your information there are a lot of arguments coming from inside and outside the country which put pressure to the government to re consider. Until the time we are writing these lines nobody (not the port police office nor the tax office) has any information about it. There are a lot of difficulties to be settled in order non residents to be able to pay taxes in Greece (To do so you must have a Greek tax number -AFM-…..). However we estimate that it will take some time to settle all these issues therefore the new tax will not in come in effect very soon. For any new information we have about it, we will let you know."
It's clear that greek boatyards are very concerned and worried about a mass exodus . If I receive any new info from this source I can post it here.

 

[1bobt]

I just thought I would share this info I received today from the Basimakapouloi boatyard where my boat is right now.
"We would also like to inform you about the new sailing tax in Greece. A tax which we consider wrong and unfair as far as it concerns the boat owners which are not residents of our country. Without any doubts, this tax will bring the opposite results than expected because of the number of boats that will depart the country, if it finally comes in effect. For your information there are a lot of arguments coming from inside and outside the country which put pressure to the government to re consider. Until the time we are writing these lines nobody (not the port police office nor the tax office) has any information about it. There are a lot of difficulties to be settled in order non residents to be able to pay taxes in Greece (To do so you must have a Greek tax number -AFM-…..). However we estimate that it will take some time to settle all these issues therefore the new tax will not in come in effect very soon. For any new information we have about it, we will let you know."
It's clear that greek boatyards are very concerned and worried about a mass exodus . If I receive any new info from this source I can post it here.

Inadvertently you may have hit on the answer regarding who pays the tax. Greek tax number holder only.

Its hardly likely to be amended and I have resigned myself to pay up ( well until I can find a way around it)