New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Glyka]

Thanks JimB, glad to hear it - I just didn't see much if any mention of it and have read most of the 1,000 plus posts! I just cannot comprehend how any sensible person can view the change at 12m fair - for those below it or indeed just above. I would imagine that an unfair tax creates a new group of tax dodgers.

I think that the original idea was to tax boats > 12m. Then somebody popped up saying: Why shouldn't the smaller boats pay something as well? Then everybody agreed without looking at the details. The more I think of it the more I think that this is what really happened!

 

[nimbusgb]

'little chance of implementing monthly payments <12m'

1 - Cue adding 500mm on to my SSR. No it won't affect my 'mooring fees' as my yard already knows how long my boat is and it depends on which SSR doc they see anyway!

2 - OTOH .... this tax is going to be paid on the internet how can it be uneconomical to 'collect' it?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I have been watching this thread with interest as I am on the countdown to cast off and head south in 2015 - heading towards Italy/Greece/Turkey in my 11.5m yacht.

I do not wish to get involved in the debate as to whether the tax is fair compared to what happens in other countries. I have often thought how unfair it is that Europeans can travel on our motorways free of charge but that we have to pay tolls to travel on theirs (more of an issue to haulage companies). However my conclusion is that I don't want a federal Europe and so some disparities are an inevitable price of independence. It disappoints me to read the unecessary mudslinging on this forum and I think that both sides to the mudslinging need to have a good look at themselves. Dignified silence is the best response in my view.

I am surprised that the CA does not seem to be making much representation regarding the inflexible charge for the sub 12m category. I would anticipate spending on average around 2 of my 5 sailing months a year in Greece, and accordingly would be charged the same as if I were in a 20m yacht. This hardly seems fair.

Somewhere in this mamoth thread Jim B did refer to the tax as (from memory) "carefully thought out" OWTTE. That stuck in my mind as plain wrong! Whilst I will have no objection to paying a fair tax in Greece, given what appears to be an otherwise low cost to cruising there, I cannot agree that there has been much intelligent thought here. The sudden jump at 12m is most unfair to those a fraction over that, but the inability to those just below to pay monthly is equally unfair. I may have to add a 51cm bowsprit and get my SSR registration at 12.01m. Hmm - on second thoughts I then lose out on marina charges!

My conclusion - a reasonable idea but if this is how Greek politicians conduct their affairs there is no wonder they are in such a mess.

I would welcome JimB's response to my issue and confirm whether the CA has made specific representations on this point?

Will continue to "lurk" with interest!

Toll motorways are just a way of recovering the cost of building them in the first place rather like M6 and some Swiss motorways. Not the same thing at all for we are hardly being asked to pay for the building of places like Aegina quayside, surely?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I think that the original idea was to tax boats > 12m. Then somebody popped up saying: Why shouldn't the smaller boats pay something as well? Then everybody agreed without looking at the details. The more I think of it the more I think that this is what really happened!

Sounds VERY Greek! Those "Talking Heads" on your TV really blow my mind!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Having castigated the Croatian authorities for years in these forums for their mercenary qualities in regard to visiting yachts, I never would have thought I would now be holding them up as an example. But unlike the new Greek tax the annual Croatian vignette (now discarded) was always for twelve months and not a calendar year. At least the autumn visitor had the chance to get value by again entering the next year before the 12 month period had expired.

Also, to compare with "Bed taxes in hotels" is far from the mark; the present Croatian 'Sojourn Tax' as now applied to visiting yachts, adapted from their earlier 'Kurtaxe' and based on the so-called hotel bed tax, despite being calculated on length and therefore on a fictive crew for this single-hander, is at least dependant on the actual time spent in the country's waters, not a blanket twelve-month fee.

All the claims of an unfair tax are predominately from those who keep their boats full time in Greece. However, the greatest unfairness comes with what I have previously practised, viz., to cruise from the Adriatic to the Ionian for a couple of weeks and return in my 31' yacht. For that modest cruising I would have to pay €300 for that short period - a significant extra cost on my fixed income. Even the Croatian Balkan Bandits never had such piratical expectations.

Well put but don't expect much agreement from most still posting here on this topic. They will just ignore your post because they have all gone native!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I not sure why people are saying free town wall and free water .five years ago maybe , more and more town wall are charging and water have gone from a euros or two to seven or ten in place , and guess what , it only going to get worst .

IF this tax comes if without any changes and I say, IF , because forget about the hand full or British and a few from other country who spend all year around Greece and are call the tax , good valve for money they have to pay , there hundreds and hundreds of Italian yacht , yacht from Turkey and else where that that come over for just some weeks do you really think they will still go if they have to pay 400 euros , let me see , two weeks sailing at a cost of two hundred Euros a week , MMMmmm.

 

[Sybaris]

They will just ignore your post because they have all gone native!

Here we go again. I urge you to read your own quote and think of what it is Victor Hugo is trying to tell you.

 

[Sybaris]

I not sure why people are saying free town wall and free water .five years ago maybe , more and more town wall are charging and water have gone from a euros or two to seven or ten in place , and guess what , it only going to get worst.

Yes I agree, how dare they charge for mooring and water. Shame on them.

... there hundreds and hundreds of Italian yacht , yacht from Turkey and else where that that come over for just some weeks do you really think they will still go if they have to pay 400 euros , let me see , two weeks sailing at a cost of two hundred Euros a week , MMMmmm.

It will indeed be interesting to see how it pans out. The majority of Italians come in August when the marina prices in Italy skyrocket so for many of them it will still be a good deal. And for the Turks it is only right that the ever increasing number of Gullets that go over to Greece also add something to the Greek economy. For every trip they make to Greece they already have to pay the Turkish exit/entry fees and agency fees amounting for a passenger Gullet to a few hundred Euros each trip. Why should not the Greeks charge anything as well? I have seen many Gullets that come over to for example Nisiros and both fill up the water tanks and clean the decks (when being told not to clean) and then sneak away without paying. Nisiros is a small island with very limited water supply, Turkey has an abundance of water - so what gives? simple, they are abusing the Greek easy going attitude, as are hundreds of smaller yachts that don't pay the very reasonable harbour dues because "they can't be bothered", or the "PP are stupid and lazy".

Per

 

[Tony Cross]

'little chance of implementing monthly payments <12m'

1 - Cue adding 500mm on to my SSR. No it won't affect my 'mooring fees' as my yard already knows how long my boat is and it depends on which SSR doc they see anyway!

2 - OTOH .... this tax is going to be paid on the internet how can it be uneconomical to 'collect' it?

I think you have to be wary of paying this tax monthly if you spend a lot of time in Greece. Paying the tax monthly leaves a nice paper trail showing how long you personally have been in Greece, if you should happen to stay more than 182 days in any 365 day period you are by European law a tax resident in Greece. That might cause you all sorts of problems. Paying for a year removes that possibility.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Here we go again. I urge you to read your own quote and think of what it is Victor Hugo is trying to tell you.

Do you mean "Signature" by any chance? It is entirely appropriate to my personality as anyone who actually knows me will confirm. It seems that you need this pointing out to you as well, but I NEVER start invective or name calling, NEVER. However, insult me or my intelligence and stand-by for a no-holds-barred response!

 

[nimbusgb]

I think you have to be wary of paying this tax monthly if you spend a lot of time in Greece. Paying the tax monthly leaves a nice paper trail showing how long you personally have been in Greece, if you should happen to stay more than 182 days in any 365 day period you are by European law a tax resident in Greece. That might cause you all sorts of problems. Paying for a year removes that possibility.

Yes but it suits me to the ground! I only spend a maximum of 5 weeks a year in Greece with my boat ashore the rest of the time as I'm still working for a living. This tax represents €80 a week for me. If I only make 3 weeks this year then its €133 per week. If I make my boat 12.01m long and pay 2 monthly payments of €100 I half my tax exposure and can spend up to 8 weeks in the water.

I would not begrudge them this but I'm pissed that I have to pay more because 'it's too much of a hassle to collect small amounts'. In my opinion that is the biggest load of bollox I have heard in a long time. I have had to spend a morning pi$$ing about trying to pay a few Euros for a Dekpa stamp. Now that IS a waste of effort.

Surely it would have been simple to say 10-12m €400 per year or 7-12m pay €50 ( for example, that's €600 for a full year ) per month in the water. What's is so difficult about that?

 

[rivonia]

What a grump you are. Of course you are upset...Why ...Because you have to pay the tax. But so does everyone else. Get a life stop MOANING life is far to short..

Naturally it does not bother me one iota,...Why...because we sold our yacht Ha Ha

All the best otherwise

 

[sailaboutvic]

Yes I agree, how dare they charge for mooring and water. Shame on them.

Did I say I agree or disagree ? The comment was because people talk as if every thing is free in Greece , they are well out of touch .

I take it that you have alway gone and find the PP and pay ?
I been turned away at time from paying by the PP , so don't bland small yacht or big ones for not paying . Blane the PP for not doing they job .

 

[Chatelaine60]

Well I must admit when I first put the question early November about the Greek tax I did not expect to get 78000views and 1100 answers. However we still do not seem to be any further along the line now than we were then! Lots of speculation, rumours, moans but nothing definite. I think we may be renewing our contract in our very nice Turkish marina.

 

[Tony Cross]

Well I must admit when I first put the question early November about the Greek tax I did not expect to get 78000views and 1100 answers. However we still do not seem to be any further along the line now than we were then! Lots of speculation, rumours, moans but nothing definite. I think we may be renewing our contract in our very nice Turkish marina.

On the contrary, we're much further along and there is good information available, see the CA website at http://www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax. What is not yet known is when the implementation of the tax will start, several other minor points need clarifying too. In addition, the relevant ministries are talking to the CA (and the other national sailing associations) about the implementation of this tax. Nothing happens quickly, especially where governments are concerned, but it's simply not true to suggest that no progress has been made..

 

[PLEIAS]

Please do not ignore the people that have dedicated their time on efforts to change the current status of the law.If not for group efforts goverments would not be very concerned with a bunch of sailors ranting on the net.After all only one member took the time to mail the ministry.Maybe if everybody had done the same together with the assns so that the ministry would have been bombarded with mails and faxes protesting then the outcome would have been different.

 

[grafozz]

while all this banter goes on relentlessly you should all be aware that Kefalonia has suffered 51 eathquakes since saturday
and a state of emergency has been declared
the biggest being 6.2
spare some thoughts for the Greek people

 

[nimbusgb]

while all this banter goes on relentlessly you should all be aware that Kefalonia has suffered 51 eathquakes since saturday
and a state of emergency has been declared
the biggest being 6.2
spare some thoughts for the Greek people

Just been a 4.6 near Patras too.

 

[jimbaerselman]

The Cruising Association (CA) is now in regular correspondence with the Ministry of Maritime, Marine and the Aegean concerning the implementation of this tax. The Ministry have confirmed that our web site states the situation correctly as at 30 January. They have been negotiating our recent list of requests (see www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax) with the Ministry of Finance, which "owns" this tax.

JimB, for the CA

 

[IanStreten]

As an owner of a 11.88meter Motor Yacht, currently ashore in Cleopatra Marina, I have been keeping up with all the various views that people have with regard to the Circulation Tax that is being introduced. I left my boat at the end of October 2013, & will not be returning until mid April. & expect to be afloat again early May. Now, whatever fellow boat owners think, my problem is that I feel I have been ambushed by the Greek Government. By introducing this tax at the end of the year, surely they realize that the majority of owners are not able to move away from Greece without having to pay this tax or a proportion of it. Right that is my first point. Secondly, my situation is that I will probably reluctantly swallow this pill & pay the 400euro that will allow me to stay for another year. However this will curtail a lot of my spending ashore with many of the ancillary business that rely so much on the cruising/liveaboard fraternity. O'k the Greek Government will collect some monies from us cruisers, but one has got to ask one's self, how much. Will it be more than boat owners will spend whilst in Greek water? No it won't because they won't be there. Do the Greek Government not realize that boats float & their owners will vote with their keels & move on to pastures new. I & my wife love the lifestyle we have aboard our boat & the Greek people we have met have been an absolute delight, but in my opinion it is about time their government stopped rushing around like headless chickens & set too & run their country as it should. Asking boat owners for this tax will be so counter productive, it will send so many of us away. As a footnote I have read in one of the Greek tourist papers that Marinas are due to be upgraded to attract more tourists to them. It's a shame the tourist won't have any boats to look at when they get there. Also all the bars & restaurants will look quite pitiful, all boarded up having gone out of business.