New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[charles_reed]

You say "Grecofile" and "Gone native" in a very derogatory and condescending way. Can you explain to me what exactly is wrong with liking and being happy in a place where you spend a lot of time?

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that Victor Hugo was right in his quote which you use as your signature "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause"

Point in case:


Take care,
Per

Per,
I think he meant grecophil rather than grecofile. His confusion is compounded by his lack of etymological comprehension as the true, derived word should be hellenophil (thereby using the same source language).
"Gone native" was, of course, a derogatory term used by red-kneed boys out on their first posting to an overseas colony, when Britain had an Empire.
One needs to laugh @ Mr Cronin (if you believe him to be trying to amuse) of grieve for him (if you believe him to be unwell). To lose one's temper and descend to his bilious level is probably unproductive.
I must commend all those who have ignored the ranting and answered the germ of question in his postings, in a comprehensive and polite manner.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Per,
I think he meant grecophil rather than grecofile. His confusion is compounded by his lack of etymological comprehension as the true, derived word should be hellenophil (thereby using the same source language).
"Gone native" was, of course, a derogatory term used by red-kneed boys out on their first posting to an overseas colony, when Britain had an Empire.
One needs to laugh @ Mr Cronin (if you believe him to be trying to amuse) of grieve for him (if you believe him to be unwell). To lose one's temper and descend to his bilious level is probably unproductive.
I must commend all those who have ignored the ranting and answered the germ of question in his postings, in a comprehensive and polite manner.

First: NOTE FOR THE MODERATOR

I have never seen such a vile personal attack on this forum, so what I am about to say,is, in any reasonable person's view, ENTIRELY justified.

Charles, I would never have thought you capable of such vicious verbiage. You sound just like one of the Stalinist apologists who always tried to denegrate anyone who disagreed with them, consistently suggesting some sort of mental illness. You sir are an a r s e h o l e of the most supreme degree deserving nothing but contempt. When you had your eye problem, my elder son was in Greece at the time and I went to an extensive amount of trouble to see if, I could get him as a dyed in the wool sailor to you to assist in re-locating your boat. As it happened, there were no appropriate flights at the time and his work commitments prevented his staying for long enough to wait until there were. Be assured that I would NEVER go to that trouble on your account again. GET LOST you waste of space!

E & OE (NOT spell-checked)

 

[Chris_Robb]

Per,
I think he meant grecophil rather than grecofile. His confusion is compounded by his lack of etymological comprehension as the true, derived word should be hellenophil (thereby using the same source language).
"Gone native" was, of course, a derogatory term used by red-kneed boys out on their first posting to an overseas colony, when Britain had an Empire.
One needs to laugh @ Mr Cronin (if you believe him to be trying to amuse) of grieve for him (if you believe him to be unwell). To lose one's temper and descend to his bilious level is probably unproductive.
I must commend all those who have ignored the ranting and answered the germ of question in his postings, in a comprehensive and polite manner.

Now you've gone and done it! Yes, I think most of us now just ignore SC. Shame - he is probably ok in real life:angel:

 

[Cardo]

Looks like the thread's on the fast track to being pulled.

Come on chaps, have a beer and cool off.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Looks like the thread's on the fast track to being pulled.

Come on chaps, have a beer and cool off.

I hope not. Steve is naturally upset at being insulted by someone he thought was a friend. I also hope Steve cools it a bit because he contributes a lot to these forums and I would not want him banned even for a week.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Now you've gone and done it! Yes, I think most of us now just ignore SC. Shame - he is probably ok in real life:angel:

Yes, indeed, a shame.

An excuse Steve suggests for using strong and bitter words is that he has been vilified as a xenophobe (among other perceived insults). I've asked him from time to time to give examples of these so that (if it's me he's referring to) I could give whatever apology is in order. See post #1042 on page 105 of this thread. So far, he has chosen not to reply.

If it helps, I can assure all of you that the libellous suggestion that someone made to him about Finikounda: "that a particular Grecofile might just shop you to the authorities" is false. That's because there's no such animal as a grecofile. Thanks Charles. That's got me off the hook.

Talk about casting nasturtiums.

Ooops. Must be careful. Charles might pick me up on poor etymological comprehension. Or Spoonerism. Or some other dire grammatical sin.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think it time people start easing off a bit on Steve , I don't know the guy and never met him but he is Entitled to his view just as much as I or you have , this tax has got everyone very heated up , and it not even came in yet , it bad for Greece it bad for all the business that rely on the boats trade it bad for the tourist and sailors alike the only people who may gain from it is the Greek government , and we all know how well their can manage money usefully .

 

[Palarran]

Per,
I think he meant grecophil rather than grecofile. His confusion is compounded by his lack of etymological comprehension as the true, derived word should be hellenophil (thereby using the same source language).
"Gone native" was, of course, a derogatory term used by red-kneed boys out on their first posting to an overseas colony, when Britain had an Empire.
One needs to laugh @ Mr Cronin (if you believe him to be trying to amuse) of grieve for him (if you believe him to be unwell). To lose one's temper and descend to his bilious level is probably unproductive.
I must commend all those who have ignored the ranting and answered the germ of question in his postings, in a comprehensive and polite manner.

Charles, I really regret that I was in such a hurry to leave last year that I didn't have a chance to sit and talk to you. Your mind is thoughtfully sharp and informative. Thanks for posting this. IMO, this thread, and the forum in general, would be much better if more members learned to use the ignore button.

 

[Tony Cross]

I think it time people start easing off a bit on Steve , I don't know the guy and never met him but he is Entitled to his view just as much as I or you have , this tax has got everyone very heated up , and it not even came in yet , it bad for Greece it bad for all the business that rely on the boats trade it bad for the tourist and sailors alike the only people who may gain from it is the Greek government , and we all know how well their can manage money usefully .

+1

I disagree with a lot Steve has to say, and I'm not a fan of the way he sometimes chooses to say things, but I have discovered that if you talk to him sensibly he responds in kind. Everyone's view and opinion is valid and important, even if they're sometimes not put across terribly well.

I suspect too that we're all frustrated because it's all gone quiet. Perhaps that's because discussions are going on behind closed doors? In any case, we already know that nothing will happen before the end of February because that's the planned date for the TAXIS online tax system to be up and running. Waiting is never easy, and uncertainty is not nice, but we have little choice but to wait and see how the tax is finally implemented.

 

[Bertramdriver]

To be honest, I stopped reading Steve's contributions because of the ranting, but then realised that inside the passion and paranoia there is usually a point to consider. It's a shame because, in truth, he expresses a great deal of what we're thinking but are reluctant to "float our boats".
I also have to admit the waiting for a final edict is frustrating.

 

[Peio64]

I am hoping my new thread “Greek Tax (how will it affect you)” can be kept for information only and therefore turn here to explain why I personally don’t consider the new tax excessive.

I don’t consider it excessive because I know that there are many alternatives the Greek government could have chosen. A few examples would be charging in anchorages (see Croatia and US), increasing and enforcing harbour dues (see many other cruising areas), higher VAT rates for hard-stand storage, or high entry/exit fees with obligatory usage of agents adding an (oftentimes) excessive commission (Turkey). They need money and we just have to get over that fact.

Having first been sceptical to the tax, but then having thought about it and the alternatives I actually think the Greek government has chosen a very reasonable and pragmatic way to charge yacht that use Greek waters with this new tax.

Charging visitors to a country is nothing new. Bed taxes in hotels are very common worldwide, as are entry/exit fees. It is not money grabbing, but a realistic fee after all you will as a visitor be using part of the local infrastructure.

Cheers,
Per

Any one of the "alternative" you cite is irrealistic.

- Charging the anchorages needs to equip a minima these anchorages (with buoys, trash etc.). I can not imagine Greek authorities investing any Euro in such equipments (nor paying employees for taking care of these unlikely equipments and due collection);
- Increasing harbour dues could be a possibility, but who is going frequently in Greek harbours devoid in their majority of any facility ? Last year, during my 5 months cruise in Greek islands, I moored only 3 times in "Greek harbours";
- Increasing the price of marinas by increasing VAT rates would make these marinas much less concurrential with respect to marinas of surrounding countries (like Turkish marinas);
- Usage of agents in Turkey is not mandatory. I use to make my entrance in Güllük where no agent is needed. Same thing in Dikili and in many other places.

From a general point of view, your "alternative(s)" had been more acceptable than the present tax since you get something in exchange of your money instead of nothing with the Greek tax. To "use Greek waters" wich are also European waters do not justify this charge. And this tax applied in the Schengen space --into which Greece chose to enter-- can not be compared to "entry-exit fees" of extra-EC countries like Turkey nor to "bed taxes" which correspond also to a service of the city where this hotel is located. Further, there is no comparison between the mean amount of "bed taxes" and the Greek "circulation tax", the much less expansive former one being in addition a "per day of presence" tax.

In summary, this tax looks actually "a money grabbing" as far as sailing and wilde-mooring (outside harbours) in Greek waters do not "use" any "part" of any "local infrastructure". I aggree this is just a robbery for those who already have their boat wintering in Greece (I am one of these poor guys).

 

[Tony Cross]

<snip>

In summary, this tax looks actually "a money grabbing" as far as sailing and wilde-mooring (outside harbours) in Greek waters do not "use" any "part" of any "local infrastructure". I aggree this is just a robbery for those who already have their boat wintering in Greece (I am one of these poor guys).

It could well be a "money grabbing" initiative and nothing more, but that doesn't detract from the right of the Greek government to do this. In any case, the Greek government isn't in complete charge of their own finances now and I see the hand of the troika of lenders in this (and many other) taxes. The troika are forcing Greece to raise cash in any way they can think of to avoid having to lend them more money in a third bailout. So the "money grabbing" is coming from the troika of lenders, not from the Greeks. I don't believe they (the Greeks) actually want this tax.

If you are worried about being forced to pay the tax in order to take your boat out of Greece then don't, on the CA website pages at http://www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax you'll see that the CA has been told that "The need for concessions for boats currently afloat in Greece is already recognised, and we are told that no penalties will be payable until the collection system is working smoothly". It's my understanding that this means that if you want to launch your boat and immediately leave Greece then no tax will be payable. I would think that you will have to exit Greece immediately and without stopping though.

The full details of these concessions will not emerge until negotiations between the Greek Ministry of Shipping, Ministry of Finance and the CA and other national sailing associations have been completed. The CA in particular is making good progress on obtaining some significant concessions, evidence that a cooperative approach pays better dividends than a confrontational one.

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony, On 'the other thread' I did try to subtly warn you about sticking your head above the parapet! I still think that your nuke 'em approach would have been more successful but I do like to be proven wrong (and often am). But just in case - can you confirm one way or the other whether the CA are actually in possession of that missing nuclear bomb that was lost off the coast of America 50 years ago? As I notice the other thread suddenly went awfully quiet when I mentioned it.

I'm sorry, but despite my personally vouching for your integrity I'm afraid you don't have the appropriate security clearance to be trusted with that sort of information. I'm sure you understand.

 

[jordanbasset]

If you are worried about being forced to pay the tax in order to take your boat out of Greece then don't, on the CA website pages at http://www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax you'll see that the CA has been told that "The need for concessions for boats currently afloat in Greece is already recognised, and we are told that no penalties will be payable until the collection system is working smoothly". It's my understanding that this means that if you want to launch your boat and immediately leave Greece then no tax will be payable. I would think that you will have to exit Greece immediately and without stopping though.

That would be a good result for those that do not want to pay the tax and have properly complained they feel trapped as it was introduced while they were in the country.

 

[Peio64]

(...)

If you are worried about being forced to pay the tax in order to take your boat out of Greece then don't, on the CA website pages at http://www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax you'll see that the CA has been told that "The need for concessions for boats currently afloat in Greece is already recognised, and we are told that no penalties will be payable until the collection system is working smoothly". It's my understanding that this means that if you want to launch your boat and immediately leave Greece then no tax will be payable. I would think that you will have to exit Greece immediately and without stopping though.
(...)

The "concession" I see there is only "no penalty". My understanding is not exactly yours : this means that if you haven't payed the tax the day you launch (and if at this date the collection system is in place), the Greek fiscal authorities spares you the fine (equal to 100% of the tax) but not the tax itself.

And, as you probably know, it is almost impossible to "launch and move" for an other country on the same day...

Peio

 

[AlbertSeely]

it is not fair that extra wages are imposed by the other way, if efforts could have been done in the right direction, the decision would not have been turned out like this

 

[Chris_Robb]

it is not fair that extra wages are imposed by the other way, if efforts could have been done in the right direction, the decision would not have been turned out like this

Qe?

 

[1bobt]

Qe?

American. Its a very strange language to understand

 

[jimbaerselman]

The "concession" I see there is only "no penalty". My understanding is not exactly yours : this means that if you haven't payed the tax the day you launch (and if at this date the collection system is in place), the Greek fiscal authorities spares you the fine (equal to 100% of the tax) but not the tax itself.

And, as you probably know, it is almost impossible to "launch and move" for an other country on the same day...

DSV and the CA specifically argued the need for a concession for visiting boats already in Greece. The response from the Greek Ministry of Maritime Affairs and the Aegean to the Cruising Association was:

For those wintering in Greece there will be a transitional period for the first year of implementation.

JimB for the CA

 

[Carmel2]

"For those wintering in Greece there will be a transitional period for the first year of implementation."

Jim can you elaborate on what this transitional period involves?