New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[jimbaerselman]

"For those wintering in Greece there will be a transitional period for the first year of implementation."

Jim can you elaborate on what this transitional period involves?

We initially asked for "a period of grace" to enable yachts which were already in Greece to depart after launch for foreign destinations without paying the tax. In later correspondence we suggested this period of grace extended to June, assuming the tax was being collected by then.

I speculate that boats which launch with intention to depart to other countries will be allowed to do so without paying the tax. We don't yet know the procedure needed to achieve this result.

When we're reasonably certain about the detail, it will be posted on the public pages of the Cruising Association website.

JimB, for the CA

 

[Carmel2]

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Norman_E]

Knowing the record of Government IT projects in the UK, and suspecting that Greece will be no better at implementing them, what are to odds that TAXIS will be delayed again, that when it comes in at least half of the people supposed to work it wont be able to, and those that can find that it does not work properly anyway?

 

[rivonia]

Knowing the record of Government IT projects in the UK, and suspecting that Greece will be no better at implementing them, what are to odds that TAXIS will be delayed again, that when it comes in at least half of the people supposed to work it wont be able to, and those that can find that it does not work properly anyway?

Ahh that will depend where you want the TAXI to take you?

 

[vyv_cox]

Knowing the record of Government IT projects in the UK, and suspecting that Greece will be no better at implementing them, what are to odds that TAXIS will be delayed again, that when it comes in at least half of the people supposed to work it wont be able to, and those that can find that it does not work properly anyway?

My thoughts exactly. Not just Government IT projects either, both public and private sector large IT projects suffer considerable delays and then do not function initially.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

My thoughts exactly. Not just Government IT projects either, both public and private sector large IT projects suffer considerable delays and then do not function initially.

It's because people don't take scaling into account. It's relatively easy to make a complex web-site work as long as there isn't too much traffic, but scaling it to the number of hits that a government service gets is pretty complex. I've made complex web-sites, and managed projects for even more complex ones, but they were all on single servers with relatively low traffic, and it wasn't a critical service, so it didn't matter if the server fell over from time to time. Something like a government system with enormous numbers of concurrent users simply doesn't work the same way as a smaller web-site. Amazon, Google et al. all put enormous resources into managing that aspect of their operations; governments don't come close to putting the same resources in.

 

[PLEIAS]

Strangely enough, all the apps in the TAXIS site that deal with payment-IDs, function perfectly.If they decide to enforce it, it will only be an addition to an application that allready exists, so the longer it takes them to add it,the more they're thinking about it and it also gives time, to those who wish to leave to do so, without imprisonments etc.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Strangely enough, all the apps in the TAXIS site that deal with payment-IDs, function perfectly.If they decide to enforce it, it will only be an addition to an application that allready exists, so the longer it takes them to add it,the more they're thinking about it and it also gives time, to those who wish to leave to do so, without imprisonments etc.

They have agreed to Credit/debit card payments for the tax, so I presume they will need to add that functionality if it does not have it now.

 

[Aquarella]

They have agreed to Credit/debit card payments for the tax, so I presume they will need to add that functionality if it does not have it now.

They'll be the only ones taking credit cards, nobody else does!

 

[BurnitBlue]

They'll be the only ones taking credit cards, nobody else does!

I noticed that last year for the first time. I wanted to buy a rigid dinghy. Cost nearly 1,000 euros. I was expected to make three visits to an ATM machine over three days (withdrawal limit) for cash. The same problem while installing a new engine with all the new bits. It is not easy to see the ATM screen on a bright day in Greece. I have tended to use a machine that is in the shade before noon. It becomes a real pain having to use one at any time of the day.

 

[Retired in Crete]

I wanted to buy a rigid dinghy. Cost nearly 1,000 euros. I was expected to make three visits to an ATM machine over three days (withdrawal limit) for cash. The same problem while installing a new engine with all the new bits.

It is now illegal to make a cash payment of over 1,000 Euros. This is currently being reduced to 500 Euros. The object of this is to force you to leave a paper trail for the tax inspectors & prevent tax evasion.

You are right in that few places take credit cards although this is expected to grow with this new legislation. If a vendor will not take credit cards the normal procedure is to pay the money either by bank transfer or depositing the cash into their account (which will need you to provide proof of ID as this goes on the paperwork).

John

 

[PLEIAS]

It is now illegal to make a cash payment of over 1,000 Euros.CORECTION :Retail sales is 1500 E,That is if you buy from a business they're obliged over that to take credit card or bank deposit.
This is currently being reduced to 500 Euros.That goes for transactions between professionals or businesses.
What nobody knows yet is that they're allready monitoring bank accounts that exceed 50000 euros in transactions over a yearly period regardless if they are private or business.Also every transfer or deposit or withdrawal over 10000 is automatically reported for further investigation.Big Brother is watching us.

 

[PLEIAS]

''They have agreed to Credit/debit card payments for the tax, so I presume they will need to add that functionality if it does not have it now.''
The choice of credit card payments is between you and the bank.It doesn't affect the collection system as they don't have anymore an on site teller in any Tax office.(cutbacks).All payments now are through banks or the post office with a unique payment id.That also serves as a life jacket for the banks due to the cash flow problem that they have.

 

[Chris_Robb]

''They have agreed to Credit/debit card payments for the tax, so I presume they will need to add that functionality if it does not have it now.''
The choice of credit card payments is between you and the bank.It doesn't affect the collection system as they don't have anymore an on site teller in any Tax office.(cutbacks).All payments now are through banks or the post office with a unique payment id.That also serves as a life jacket for the banks due to the cash flow problem that they have.

Just so long as I don't have to do a transfer from my UK bank account to a Greek account with all the attendant difficulties of actually achieving it. Barclays is easy - but if you have Lloyds online banking, it would be next to impossible to do from Greece. (When you make a new payee, they have an automated phone call to your designated home phone number).

 

[PLEIAS]

Just a thought - Isn't it a good idea that somebody should summarise in a 'sticky' what goes at the moment as i believe that nobody is in the mood to go through the 118 pages to find out what's happening?And in the same time try to keep it clean of drifts and rantings? Again this is just a thought...

 

[jimbaerselman]

Just a thought - Isn't it a good idea that somebody should summarise in a 'sticky' what goes at the moment as i believe that nobody is in the mood to go through the 118 pages to find out what's happening?And in the same time try to keep it clean of drifts and rantings? Again this is just a thought...

The present "sticky" summarising what we know about the tax is at www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax.

The CA is directly in touch with the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Aegean, who are answering our questions as soon as decisions are made. We hope to have more detail by the end of February.

 

[charles_reed]

They'll be the only ones taking credit cards, nobody else does!

In fact I've found lots of people who take credit cards - nearly all the supermarket chains, many ristoranti and all the Shell filling stations.

You can't pay for your cup coffee as you can in UK, Sweden or Finland, but then it usually costs about €0.60 which is vanishingly small compared to a coffee in those 3 countries.

 

[charles_reed]

Just so long as I don't have to do a transfer from my UK bank account to a Greek account with all the attendant difficulties of actually achieving it. Barclays is easy - but if you have Lloyds online banking, it would be next to impossible to do from Greece. (When you make a new payee, they have an automated phone call to your designated home phone number).

I've registered my UK mobile as the named number in my 3 accounts (which includes Lloyds), which solves that problem.
However, one of the last banks through whom I'd have a € from £ transfer in Lloyds (they're definitely into usury). I usually use xe.com, with whom I have an account, their charges are about 1.2% on small transactions plus you get mid-market rates. On any largish >€4500 transactions the charge is much smaller and usually a fixed fee.
I'm afraid if they (Greek Authorities) haven't set up automated transactions they might have difficulty getting ANY money out of me.

 

[PLEIAS]

As i don't want to create another drift, i'll answer or comment on credit card or anyother payments, if and when the picture is cleared about payments.Again the longer it takes them the better it is for us all.

 

[Peio64]

Hello everybody,

The law is still not implemented but recent infos from Greece seem to indicate that this is going on.
CA negociations look not progressing so much and, anyway, we find them very shy.

That's why we, Frenchies, decided to protest againt it --first at the concerned Greek ministries; second if not successful at various Courts-- by using legal arguments which can be summarized as follow :

1) Convention of Montego Bay (1982)
2) Convention of Barcelona (1921, old but still valid)
3) Interdiction within the EU of a "tax of equivalent effect", legal argument which was opposed with success againt the former similar Greek tax in 2001 (see apendix).

Our goal is not a "negociation" on its dispositions but rather is the total invalidation of the tax.
Sweedish and German associations are very likely to follow us in this way.

For those of you who are disapointed by the CA (in)action, I propose to join us. A simple e-mail of some lines addressed to :
bureau@stw.fr
...with the title "Greek tax", your name, the name of your boat and a summary of your intentions concerning the tax and its effects will be enough.
The more we will be, the more our action will be efficient.

Thank you in advance for participating.

More infos (in French) at :

http://www.stw.fr/forumstw/quest_answers.cfm?quest_id=50454&st_row=1&rep_st_row=41&topic_id=22

Appendix :
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-01-1103_en.htm?locale=en
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IP/01/1103

Brussels, 26th July 2001

Customs: infringement procedure against Greece - tax on pleasure craft

The European Commission has decided to address a formal request to Greece to stop levying a special tax on pleasure craft entering Greek territorial waters. This formal request will take the form of a reasoned opinion (second stage of the infringement procedure under Article 226 of the EC Treaty). In the absence of a satisfactory response to the reasoned opinion within two months, the Commission may bring the matter before the Court of Justice.

Article 11 of Greek Law No 2743/1999 (Greek Government Gazette A 211) of 13 November 1999 introduced this tax on private pleasure craft entering Greek territorial waters which are more than 7m in length and which have no permanent mooring in a Greek port. The tax is levied each time a pleasure boat enters the country and approaches a Greek port, harbour or coast; the amount is calculated on the length of the boat and comes on top of any harbour dues normally levied. It is paid into the special account of the Harbour Police Fund.

As it is levied upon the crossing of a territorial line and does not relate to a service actually rendered to the person paying it this tax is a tax with equivalent effect to import duties contrary to Articles 23 and 25 of the EC Treaty. It is prohibited irrespective of whether it is levied on Community pleasure craft or third country pleasure craft (pursuant to Articles 23, 25 and 133 of the EC Treaty).
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Peio
Haize Egoa