New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[jimbaerselman]

Maybe your first argument concerning, I imagine, the opportunity to call on Montego and Barcelona treaties is relevant. I do not know but I will verify it.

That would be very helpful.

Please suppose that we can obtain the complete alleviation of this painful tax :

- Boats visiting Greece for less than 6 months will not pay anything, irrespective to their nationality (that means including UK boats). This would concern a large majority of boats, I presume

Correct. As long as Greece does not choose to apply EU directives on MoT.

- For boats staying annually in Greece, it would be 2 situations :

a) they are inhabited during more than 180 days by the same person(s). In this case, it is clear that these persons are actually "Greek residents" and, as such, are supposed to pay taxes in Greece, including this one. This is already the law and nothing would change for these persons if they respect the rules.

Correct.

b) the owners (or other passengers) do not stay more than 180 consecutive days in Greece. Their fiscal residence is thus located in a foreign country where they pay their taxes, including for the French I am, the Fench circulation tax for leisure boats. In case the Greek tax would apply to these later persons, they should be liable to ask for a refund either of the French tax (in my situation) or of the Greek tax.

Not necessarily. If Greece chose to apply the MoT directives, then the length of stay of the boat is the issue, not the length of stay of people aboard. After 180 days of the boats residence in Greece, temporary import (and meeting Greek regulations) would be necessary. Also, for British and other registrations which do not pay circulation tax, the local circulation tax would be immediately payable.

It thus appear to me that the implementation of this law does not favour living aboard persons which would have anyway to pay the tax,

Agreed.

but that it would cause damage to boats visiting Greece for a short period

that cost/damage would be legal if the boats did not pay circulation taxes in their home registrations, but illegal for those boats which already paid circulation taxes

and also to boats whose owner is not Greek resident.

As mentioned, the persons using the boat are irrelevant, only the boat's stay is relevant.

There is plenty of case law on this referring to cars which overstay without declaring the intention to import

This is a useful discussion, Peio, and I understand that the French position, in law, may gain up to 180 day's grace before this tax becomes compulsory. It's very sad that then British case is not so robust - because we do not pay circulation taxes!

 

[nickf]

Personally I do not agree. I believe the CA approach has been spot on.

 

[duncan99210]

I always understood that the double taxation rules only related to taxation on income, so all the above is an irrelevance.

 

[Peio64]

I always understood that the double taxation rules only related to taxation on income, so all the above is an irrelevance.

You understood what was "always" understandable to you.
I propose friendly that you read attentively the laws and treaties. After what this discussion could eventually make sense.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

Personally I do not agree. I believe the CA approach has been spot on.

No more arguments ?
So, just a belief, no more. I skip.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

Not necessarily. If Greece chose to apply the MoT directives, then the length of stay of the boat is the issue, not the length of stay of people aboard. After 180 days of the boats residence in Greece, temporary import (and meeting Greek regulations) would be necessary. Also, for British and other registrations which do not pay circulation tax, the local circulation tax would be immediately payable.

(...)

that cost/damage would be legal if the boats did not pay circulation taxes in their home registrations, but illegal for those boats which already paid circulation taxes As mentioned, the persons using the boat are irrelevant, only the boat's stay is relevant.

There is plenty of case law on this referring to cars which overstay without declaring the intention to import

This is a useful discussion, Peio, and I understand that the French position, in law, may gain up to 180 day's grace before this tax becomes compulsory. It's very sad that then British case is not so robust - because we do not pay circulation taxes!

Hello Jim,

I did an extensive search but I was unable to find any european directive substancially modifying the directive adopted March 28th, 1983. I agree that leisure boats can be , in some way, confounded with cars as "means of transport". This is not new. But even cars registered in a foreign country can stay more than 180 days in Greece without paying any Greek tax.

This is very well summarized in page published by your governement, here :
https://www.gov.uk/living-in-greece

---------------------------------------
Temporary import of cars by tourists

Visitors from other EU Member States, whose cars are registered in that EU state, are free to drive their vehicle in Greece for a period of six months without customs control. The vehicle registration document and proof of ownership is required. Travellers should at all times be able to prove to the authorities when the vehicle was brought into Greece. To qualify for a second period of tax free circulation: either both the vehicle and the owner should be out of Greece for at least 185 days or while the owner is away, the vehicle can remain at a sealed area designated by the Customs authority.

The entitlement to circulate a vehicle on foreign plates is strictly personal, consequently only the wife/husband or children may use the car in addition to the owner. After the expiry of the period granted by the customs authorities, the person concerned will be required to either:

- re-export the car
- seal it with the customs for a period of at least 6 months (but no more than 24 months) after which time, provided the owner can show that he/she has been out of Greece for at least 6 months during this time, another 6 month circulation period may be granted, or
- clear it through customs
--------------------------------------

Thus, the status of "temporary imported vehicle" depends both on the presence of the vehicle and on the presence of the owner/driver for more than 180 consecutive days on the Greek territory. If after those 180 days you leave the vehicle, you place it under customs control and you return home for the next 185 days, you are not supposed to pay any tax, for import or anything else.
I do not see why this rule would not be applicable to this other form of "MoT" which is a leisure boat (if I follow you).

I agree that this would be a damn complication with respect to the existing way to leave the boat in Greece, but not only for us: also for the Greek customs who would have to organize this control

Therefore, it appears that as I said above, the tax can well be avoided by sailors who sail less than 6 months in Greece and that it would actually concern only Greek "residents". This minority already have to pay Greek taxes, anyway...

In conclusion, the "TPP" law is completely illegal as far as it concerns not only boats of Greek residents, but also visiting yachts (less than 180 days of active presence) which are taxed as well. Furthermore, for foreign visiting boats which already pay an annual tax in their own country, this would be de facto a double taxation, which is also prohibited. For these main reasons, I think that the tax is not sustainable in its present formulation and that the CA-UK should protest againt it, without prejudice of potential negociations on adjustments for "resident" boats.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Tony Cross]

Thank you. I support you 100%. The stance of the CA in this matter is disgusting. They have decided that the fight is lost before the first shot is fired. Right now they and their Minions have taken the modern political view that for THEM it is a good feeling to be seen walking the ministerial corridors with a clipboard and help the Greeks to find an efficient way to extract the TAX from visiting yacht folk rather than stand and fight against his illegal money grab.

It is the modern British way to talk talk and compromise so I hope the French will demonstrate that this is a cowards way out and win this fight for all of us.

Thank you again. And please ignore the CA's cowardly justifications on this forum.

If you're not happy with the approach the CA has taken it seems to me that you have three options:

1. Join the CA and put your case to the membership.

2. Join another organisation (the French?) that has the same attitude to the tax that you have.

3. Form your own group and oppose the tax yourself.

The CA is negotiating on behalf of it's membership, it has no mandate or authority to negotiate on anybody else's behalf. I could argue that what the CA is doing is nobody's business but the CA membership's. The cowards way is to sit back, allow others to do the hard work, and then whine because you don't like what they're doing.

 

[akyaka]

Incidentally, I wonder whether the DEPKA could be also attacked as far as it constitutes de facto a control on the circulation, circulation which is supposed to be "free" at least for the european citizens belonging to the Schengen Space (yes, I know : United Kingdom does not belong to this space )

As an obvious pedant I am surprised that you made this statement as the UK does belong, its just that by agreement their are certain aspects of the Schengen Agreement that the UK has not adopted

 

[jimbaerselman]

Hi Peio,

The British interpretation is not completely clear, because it assumes a tourist will always be with the car. The Directive 83/182 allows that the car/boat may remain "for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months". So, yes, you could achieve this by always putting your boat in customs control (bond) for at least 6 months in any 12, and making sure you were not deemed resident. As you say, "a damn complication"!

And if the person using the boat spent more than 182 days in any 365, that wouldn't work. Case law also has defined that "strong cultural, family or business ties" may mean shorter stays in Greece can qualify you as "Ordinarily Greek resident" (as apart from a tax resident), also not allowing you to use a temporarilly imported MoT.

It appears Croatia works around this dilemna by charging a "sojourn tax" based on people, plus a "Navigation, Safety and Pollution Prevention Fee", rather than a circulation tax. Which is probably why the Greeks call TPP a "Residence and Operation Fee"!

 

[Sybarite]

Hello Jim,

I did an extensive search but I was unable to find any european directive substancially modifying the directive adopted March 28th, 1983. I agree that leisure boats can be , in some way, confounded with cars as "means of transport". This is not new. But even cars registered in a foreign country can stay more than 180 days in Greece without paying any Greek tax.

This is very well summarized in page published by your governement, here :
https://www.gov.uk/living-in-greece

---------------------------------------
Temporary import of cars by tourists

Visitors from other EU Member States, whose cars are registered in that EU state, are free to drive their vehicle in Greece for a period of six months without customs control. The vehicle registration document and proof of ownership is required. Travellers should at all times be able to prove to the authorities when the vehicle was brought into Greece. To qualify for a second period of tax free circulation: either both the vehicle and the owner should be out of Greece for at least 185 days or while the owner is away, the vehicle can remain at a sealed area designated by the Customs authority.

The entitlement to circulate a vehicle on foreign plates is strictly personal, consequently only the wife/husband or children may use the car in addition to the owner. After the expiry of the period granted by the customs authorities, the person concerned will be required to either:

- re-export the car
- seal it with the customs for a period of at least 6 months (but no more than 24 months) after which time, provided the owner can show that he/she has been out of Greece for at least 6 months during this time, another 6 month circulation period may be granted, or
- clear it through customs
--------------------------------------

Thus, the status of "temporary imported vehicle" depends both on the presence of the vehicle and on the presence of the owner/driver for more than 180 consecutive days on the Greek territory. If after those 180 days you leave the vehicle, you place it under customs control and you return home for the next 185 days, you are not supposed to pay any tax, for import or anything else.
I do not see why this rule would not be applicable to this other form of "MoT" which is a leisure boat (if I follow you).

I agree that this would be a damn complication with respect to the existing way to leave the boat in Greece, but not only for us: also for the Greek customs who would have to organize this control

Therefore, it appears that as I said above, the tax can well be avoided by sailors who sail less than 6 months in Greece and that it would actually concern only Greek "residents". This minority already have to pay Greek taxes, anyway...

In conclusion, the "TPP" law is completely illegal as far as it concerns not only boats of Greek residents, but also visiting yachts (less than 180 days of active presence) which are taxed as well. Furthermore, for foreign visiting boats which already pay an annual tax in their own country, this would be de facto a double taxation, which is also prohibited. For these main reasons, I think that the tax is not sustainable in its present formulation and that the CA-UK should protest againt it, without prejudice of potential negociations on adjustments for "resident" boats.

Peio
Haize Egoa

Excuse me it's late and I haven't read everything in detail. However you could perhaps google Mê Ariel Dahan ( legal advisor to the STW forum). He has written on the question of the "exigibilité" and the "fait générateur" of the French vignette. It's essentially a tax on the movement of the boat but this fact isn't appreciated by the people who apply the tax. Therefore you shouldn't have to pay the vignette if your boat is not based in a French port. If I have understood it correctly.

 

[BrianH]

It appears Croatia works around this dilemna by charging a "sojourn tax" based on people, plus a "Navigation, Safety and Pollution Prevention Fee", rather than a circulation tax.

The Croatian sojourn tax was adapted from the original "Kurtaxe" applied in their hotels and marinas, copied from some, mainly German-speaking, countries as a per head visitor tax to benefit the local amenities for visitors in what were originally poor communities where many went for a so-called health cure (Kur).

As it was noticed that many visiting yachts did not visit marinas or moored to concessionary buoys (where the Kurtaxe was also added to the cost) it was decided in 2010 to adapt the tax and call it a sojourn tax to be applied with the vignette and other costs impressed at entry declaration. The skipper was then asked how long he was going to stay and charged according - on the length of boat, not on the number of "people" on board. When I queried the anomaly of distorting the original principle of a 'per-head/per-night' tax, I was informed that the cost was now dependent on the number I could accommodate and who could join me en route. When I pointed out that could easily be referenced by the crew list, which I was obliged to maintain at a port of entry as soon as it changed, the subject was dropped.

Consequently, sailing single-handed into Croatian waters I am charged a sojourn tax for a fictitious crew of five others (calculated on the maximum considered for my length of boat) who would never be joining me.

 

[duncan99210]

Following the comments on double taxation, I've read the HMRC guidance on double taxation reliefs. As I thought, they only apply to income and capital gains taxation, so as far as I can see for UK registered boats there's no grounds for considering the TPP as falling under double taxation relief. In any case, as I read the rules, you pay the Greek taxes and then apply to the UK tax authorities for a refund equal to the value of the Greek taxes you paid.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Following the comments on double taxation, I've read the HMRC guidance on double taxation reliefs. As I thought, they only apply to income and capital gains taxation, so as far as I can see for UK registered boats there's no grounds for considering the TPP as falling under double taxation relief. In any case, as I read the rules, you pay the Greek taxes and then apply to the UK tax authorities for a refund equal to the value of the Greek taxes you paid.

EU directives extend the concept of double taxation more widely, to include customs duty, tariffs, circulation taxes and any other charges designed to hinder the free movement of goods within the EU.

It is easy to argue that a fee to cruise in a country to support a fund for harbour services and maintenance, search and rescue, lighthouses and buoyage is not a tax, but a charge to ensure fundamentals are supplied. If collected daily, as is the present case, the cost of collection for small vessels far outweighs the cash collected. So there is an excellent case for collecting monthly, or annually, rather than daily.

This is a grey area within the EU. The principle is that if you pay in one country for a general privilege, you shouldn't have to pay it in another. Us Brits (and the Belgians) don't pay for such a privilege. The French do. They may have a double taxation case . . . if this is regarded a tax designed to hinder the free movement of goods within the EU.

It's a nice point.

Of course, harbours may choose to supply additional services - such as electricity, water, laid lines to the shore, whatever. Even full marina services.

The decision as to how the cost of these investments is recovered is down to the owner of the foreshore, in many cases, this is the local authority. Some local authorities provide good services free of charge to attract visitors. Others franchise or lease the area to third parties to charge what they wish. That's very obviously a charge for service. If it's over-charged, you don't go there.

 

[Peio64]

Excuse me it's late and I haven't read everything in detail. However you could perhaps google Mê Ariel Dahan ( legal advisor to the STW forum). He has written on the question of the "exigibilité" and the "fait générateur" of the French vignette. It's essentially a tax on the movement of the boat but this fact isn't appreciated by the people who apply the tax. Therefore you shouldn't have to pay the vignette if your boat is not based in a French port. If I have understood it correctly.

Yes, I have to pay annually this tax called "DAN" or "Droit Annuel de Navigation" and I pay it since I have Haize Egoa which has never been based in a French harbour (I moved she to Turquey immediately after buying she). Interestingly, this tax is not based on the location of the boat but on the location of its owner, i.e. on the location of the "main residency" of this owner, which also define his fiscal residency. Since I have my home in the SW of France where I live more than 6 months/year, I pay my income taxes in France and thus, I pay also the DAN.

This notion of "main [fiscal] residency" induces that a foreigner living in France more than 6 months/year and owning (or using) a boat flying either French or foreign flag has to pay the same amount of tax which is called in this case "Droit de Passeport". French customs have made a special case of boats who fly a "flag of convenience". These one are taxed three times the normal rate for a boat < 15m and 5 times for a boat >15m (art. 228 of "code des douanes").

This is why the Greek tax should be a "double taxation" not only for French people (and other people who already pay a tax in their own country) but also, for example, for a British who is French resident and who visit Greece for some months with his yacht, this yacht flying British flag but being based in a French harbour (and therefore liable to pay the "droit de passeport").

As one can see, the Greek tax as it is now established give rise to an abundance of special cases where it should not be payed in order to be in accordance with international treaties. If it is enforced one day, it will certainly give rise to a multiplicity of complaints and demands of refund, mine first of all


Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[sailaboutvic]

If you're not happy with the approach the CA has taken it seems to me that you have three options:

1. Join the CA and put your case to the membership.

2. Join another organisation (the French?) that has the same attitude to the tax that you have.

3. Form your own group and oppose the tax yourself.

The CA is negotiating on behalf of it's membership, it has no mandate or authority to negotiate on anybody else's behalf. I could argue that what the CA is doing is nobody's business but the CA membership's. The cowards way is to sit back, allow others to do the hard work, and then whine because you don't like what they're doing.

Hi Tony , hope your well I see your still defending the CA .
Your reply is a bit strong isn't it mate ?
What the CA may or may not agree on with Greece will affect everyone who sails there in reality , it not just negotiate on behalf of CA members the out come will effect everyone . So this guy and everyone else have every reason to complain if they don't agree on what the CA is trying to agree on , As you can see I have keep out of the tax argument for quite a while because the hand full of CA member on here think the sun shine out of the CA bottom , me and many other don't .
The CA jump on the tax band wagon well after the French Germany and Dutch where in talk with Greece and only after an CA member made a comment that got everyone up in arms , so please Tony lay off other who totally disagree with the CA views , at the end of the day there thousand more people sailing in Greece then the hand full of CA member so why should the CA agree on a policy for them just to keep a few CA members happy .
What the CA should had done in the begin was joined up with all the other group and negotiate on the same lines .

it April and still no sign of this tax , maybe the Greece have just started to think , is it really a good idea . ?

OK CA member you can now give me some sticks .

 

[Tony Cross]

Hi Tony , hope your well I see your still defending the CA .
Your reply is a bit strong isn't it mate ?

No I don't think it's strong at all. The CA is a private members club and as such is responsible only to it's membership.

What the CA may or may not agree on with Greece will affect everyone who sails there in reality , it not just negotiate on behalf of CA members the out come will effect everyone . So this guy and everyone else have every reason to complain if they don't agree on what the CA is trying to agree on , As you can see I have keep out of the tax argument for quite a while because the hand full of CA member on here think the sun shine out of the CA bottom , me and many other don't .

The CA has chosen to make their negotiations with the Greek government public because (in my view) they realise that the tax will affect everyone in Greece and they want to be open, honest, and clear about the approach they have decided to take. The CA, like all the other national sailing associations, is acting on behalf of it's membership, that's what it is supposed to be doing. It does absolutely no good at all for non-members to attack the CA on here if they're not prepared to either join the CA and try to change their approach or actively negotiate with the Greek government in some other way.

The CA jump on the tax band wagon well after the French Germany and Dutch where in talk with Greece and only after an CA member made a comment that got everyone up in arms , so please Tony lay off other who totally disagree with the CA views , at the end of the day there thousand more people sailing in Greece then the hand full of CA member so why should the CA agree on a policy for them just to keep a few CA members happy .

I don't accept your suggestion that the CA were late in responding to this tax, they were alerted to it as soon almost as soon as it was proposed way back last November.

What the CA should had done in the begin was joined up with all the other group and negotiate on the same lines .

I'm speechless. How dare you presume to instruct the CA on what they should and should not be doing.

it April and still no sign of this tax , maybe the Greece have just started to think , is it really a good idea . ?

That may be true, I certainly hope so! Nobody would be happier than me.

OK CA member you can now give me some sticks .

Sticks.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hahaha

I'm speechless too . How dare the CA do deal that will effect thousand of sailors nothing to do with the CA .

Keep up the good work .

PS
Most of us know about the tax well before November , by the way , it was common knowledge .
And I won't repeat what the CA comment was in the begin as it not fair to them .

 

[Tony Cross]

Hahaha

I'm speechless too . How dare the CA do deal that will effect thousand of sailors nothing to do with the CA .

Keep up the good work .

PS
Most of us know about the tax well before November , by the way , it was common knowledge .
And I won't repeat what the CA comment was in the begin as it not fair to them .

As ever, it's a pleasure to cross swords with you. Have a good summer.

 

[sailaboutvic]

As ever, it's a pleasure to cross swords with you. Have a good summer.

You too Tony I sure one day we will bump into each have , have a beer and have a good laughter about all the posting on YBW .

Safe sailing my friend

 

[jimbaerselman]

How dare the CA do deal that will effect thousand of sailors nothing to do with the CA .

Keep up the good work .

The organisation which represents the interest of UK sailors is the RYA. The RYA has about 30 times the resources of the CA. Their view is also that there are no legal grounds for challenging this tax in law (apart from potential UNCLOS infractions, if boats are charged for transit through Greek waters).

The RYA is a member of the European Boating Association. This is (probably) a representative organisation for all European sailors. It has written to the Greek government and the EU commission on this matter.

Most of us know about the tax well before November , by the way , it was common knowledge .
And I won't repeat what the CA comment was in the begin as it not fair to them .

Errm. Have a look at the first post on this thread!