New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Peio64]

Because our waters and our islands and our coasts are our assets and we have decided to charge for their use. If you want to use them you have to pay.
BTW, calling names and insulting people won't take you anywhere nice.

I will be rather rude : Greece as a member of EU is not allowed to do this. "Your" coasts are NOT "your" assets, they are EUROPEAN assets. Can you understand this ?
As such, Greece has to respect european rules, including the directive "83/182/EEC of 28 March 1983" and (many) others related to this topic. As this tax is very, very, likely to be illegal from this point of view, I will refuse to pay it if it is enforced one day. I will use "your" coasts freely into the strict framework of European treaties your country has signed, exactly in the same way "you" are allowed to use "our" French coasts.
Immobilization of my boat being also illegal, from the same point of view and the same directive and jurisprudance, what means Greek authorities will have for compeling me to pay it ? To put me to jail ? I promise that in any situation of this kind, Greece will remember me and other sailors...

However, your country has the choice to leave Europe, Euro and so on, if European rules do not satisfy it.
At this moment, Greek State could enforce any crazy tax it imagines... Without prejudice of other international treaties it would probably have to cancel before, indeed.

I never answered to you because your only argument for supporting this tax was briefly : "You (foreigners) are not the target. The target is Greek boaters who flag their ship in UK for tax avoidance. You (foreigners) are just a collateral damage. That's a pity but "à la guerre comme à la guerre"".

Now, you are just an arrogant person who support with no further reasoning (either legal or compassional) a wrong attitude.
You know ? You remember me the famous Britannic slogan "Right or wrong, my country"

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

Yes - and that is the way the CA sees it, and actually how I see it - Just trying to bring out a discussion on the EU regulation to see what exactly is illegal.

Peio64, could you point us in the right direction as to what is illegal about this tax?

I already answered to this in several occasions.

It is illegal :

- First of all as a circulation tax which not allows free circulation of EU citizens with the "mean of transport" of their choice (here with a leisure boat which is included specifically in the pretty old directive 83/182);

- Second, as a "tax of equivalence", reason for which Greece was already condemned in 2001 for its former "navigation tax on leisure boats";

- Third, because for French boats (and maybe others) this tax would double the circulation tax they already payed in their own country;

- Fourth, because the control of this tax induces de facto a control at the border and, worse if it can be, controls inside the borders without any argument like "security of the country" which are the only ones authorized by European treaties, only for a limited period and after EU accordance. The menace of immobilisation of the boat could be an additional reason for opposing to this law, considering the european jurisprudence related to the "83/182/CEE". Jurisprudence that I urge you to read attentively;

- Fifth, because it also induces a discrimination between big "resident" boats (>12m) which can benefit of a 30% discount and others, smaller or not "resident" boats (this could be seen as favouring either "big" Greek-owned boats or Greek harbours and marinas, or both). The European Commission does not like at all this kind of discrimination, as it does not like at all undefined terms like "resident boat" in a paragraph of a law. Together, these two errors in the law are enough for a complaint. But considering what it could be opposed in 1,2,3,4, this becomes less important;

- If this is not enough, this law also looks contrary to several International treaties like the one defining the "innocent passage" and the right to sail freely the straits entirely located into National waters (like the Corfu's strait or the Corinth canal).

Good night,

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[jordanbasset]

If this tax is so clearly against the law as some claim and 'lodging a complaint against a member state is very simple and free of charge.' then I do not understand why some want the CA to lodge the complaint, why do they not do it themselves?

 

[nickf]

I will be rather rude : Greece as a member of EU is not allowed to do this. "Your" coasts are NOT "your" assets, they are EUROPEAN assets. Can you understand this ?

Peio
Haize Egoa

Interesting interpretation of international law - Is Greece no longer a sovereign state?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Interesting interpretation of international law - Is Greece no longer a sovereign state?

Is ANY EU member?

 

[Tony Cross]

I'm amused that some take the view that the tax is illegal under EU law. This tax, like so many other new taxes that the troika of lenders has either demanded or caused to be imposed, is designed to ensure that Greece raises as much revenue internally as possible so that her dependence on foreign loans is reduced. One member of the troika of lenders, along with the IMF and the ECB, is the EU. Do you not think that it's unlikely that the EU would be requiring, or at the very least approving, a new tax that broke EU law? Greece's finances have been picked apart by the troika of lenders and it's absurd to think that the EU would not realise that a tax they have required and/or approved is illegal under their own rules.

It is also a nonsense to claim that Greece's assets are somehow European assets. The EU is not a country, no matter how much you might like it to be, and can thus own nothing.

 

[Tranona]

I will be rather rude : Greece as a member of EU is not allowed to do this. "Your" coasts are NOT "your" assets, they are EUROPEAN assets. Can you understand this ?

Not sure this is correct. Responsibility for the seas is very clearly covered by UNCLOS which places responsibility for territorial waters on the sovereign state. The EU is not a sovereign state and as far as I am aware (but of course I could be wqrong) there is nothing in the EU treaties which overrides obligations under UNCLOS.

Won't respond in detail to your other arguments as others have pointed out the potential flaws already, but seems you are in danger of convincing yourself of the merits of your case in the face of strong counterarguments.

Not something you can win here - the only way of pursuing your case is to take it to the Commission.

 

[Peio64]

If this tax is so clearly against the law as some claim and 'lodging a complaint against a member state is very simple and free of charge.' then I do not understand why some want the CA to lodge the complaint, why do they not do it themselves?

This will be done within 3 weeks now if the Greek government does not answer (or answer negatively) to the letter we have sent 1 week ago.

Before complaining, we are tryng first to find a mutual agreement (which should be from our point of view a cancellation of the tax as it is imposed presently). We proposed that at least for EU visitors, it could be replaced by a sojourn tax coming with harbour and marina fees. This tax would be "pro rata temporis" and of a reasonable amount.

Concerning the CA's attitude, it is clear that a common action of the main European associations would have given more weight to this action and that the surrender of one of these associations (not the smallest) complicates the job.
That's why I was trying to convince CA members and "officials" that it could be better thinks to do than to "negociate" but, apparently, this is unsuccessful.

BTW, what about CA's "negociations" ? Are they progressing ?

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[jimbaerselman]

So, lodging a complaint against a member state is very simple and free of charge. Where do you learn that it is "expensive" ?

It's expensive in effort. (1) Obtaining an accurate translation. (2) Researching EU law, plus the past complaints upheld, and those supported. (3) I'm not paid to do this (4) I'd have to pay for definitive advice on some matters

Most important though, I see no grounds for a complaint yet, since nothing has occurred. Although a law has been introduced, there is no evidence that it is going to be implemented in a manner that will infringe any directives.

First, Referring to UNCLOS, we have been told that there is no intention to hinder "innocent passage", although "a strict view will be taken of boats anchoring en route".

Second, We have also been told that the applicability of this tax within the Corinth Canal is being reviewed.

Third, there is a lot of uncertainty about whether a base charge for use of quaysides and anchorages throughout Greece is a circulation charge, or a universal payment for services such as rubbish collection, quayside maintenance and designating swimming zones. Quayside charges, even anchoring charges, are normal throughout the EU. It can argued that this is a consolidation of charges which would otherwise be charged port by port, or anchorage by anchorage, but that gathering it monthly or yearly removes much of the cost of gathering the charges individually.

Fourth, in the directive, only motor vehicle circulation taxes are listed as being exempt for up to 6 months within each year, with charges equivalent to duty or import tax being forbidden. It's difficult to argue that a repetitive charge is equivalent to an import tax or duty payment, especially when it applies to local as well as visiting boats.

Fifth, all EU boats are treated identically, irrespective of flag (and, it seems, all other flags as well!).

So, for me, not worth the effort yet.

Lets start working on Croatia frst . . .

 

[Peio64]

I'm amused that some take the view that the tax is illegal under EU law. This tax, like so many other new taxes that the troika of lenders has either demanded or caused to be imposed, is designed to ensure that Greece raises as much revenue internally as possible so that her dependence on foreign loans is reduced. One member of the troika of lenders, along with the IMF and the ECB, is the EU. Do you not think that it's unlikely that the EU would be requiring, or at the very least approving, a new tax that broke EU law? Greece's finances have been picked apart by the troika of lenders and it's absurd to think that the EU would not realise that a tax they have required and/or approved is illegal under their own rules.

It is also a nonsense to claim that Greece's assets are somehow European assets. The EU is not a country, no matter how much you might like it to be, and can thus own nothing.

Seriously, do you think that the troika of lenders required a specific circulation tax on leisure boats ? Do you think that IMF, ECB and EU members were involved in its redaction or that the text was submitted to their approval before its presentation to the Greek parliament ? Do you imagine one minute that the troika controls every details of a general fiscal law and says "yes" or "no" to the Greek ministry of Economy ?

The troika has two functions : a) it defines the general economic aims and the time limits (in so-called "memorandums"); b) it verifies every 3 months the good implementation of the program of reforms dictated in these "memorandums". Do you think that it also write out or even control every paragraph of every new law ?
Anyway, several reforms imposed to Greece (and to Portugal) by the troika were already found illegal either by the european parliament (Greece, rights of work, 2012) or by Constitutional Courts (Greece, Portugal, 2012-2013).
Why not this one ?

For the last point you raise, if EU is not sesu stricto a country, it has like a country external borders and its state members are not allowed to do all what they could want about customs, taxes and circulation of european citizens at the internal borders.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[jimbaerselman]

This will be done within 3 weeks now if the Greek government does not answer (or answer negatively) to the letter we have sent 1 week ago.

Is this the letter sent by the European Boating Associations?

Before complaining, we are trying first to find a mutual agreement (which should be from our point of view a cancellation of the tax as it is imposed presently). We proposed that at least for EU visitors, it could be replaced by a sojourn tax coming with harbour and marina fees. This tax would be "pro rata temporis" and of a reasonable amount.

Yes, CA tried this last December. We received many clarifications about how the tax would be applied. We also had indications that the Ministry of Finance would not agree to different approaches between visitor boats and boats used by Greek residents

Concerning the CA's attitude, it is clear that a common action of the main European associations would have given more weight to this action and that the surrender of one of these associations (not the smallest) complicates the job.

The official UK Boating Association is the RYA, who say that they are backing the letter sent by the European Boating Associations. The RYA also say that they are not aware of any basis for challenging this tax under European law. The RYA have access to high quality advice on matters of Maritime law.

That's why I was trying to convince CA members and "officials" that it could be better thinks to do than to "negociate" but, apparently, this is unsuccessful.

BTW, what about CA's "negociations" ? Are they progressing ?

The up to date situation as we know it is posted on our web site. Nothing more will happen until the Greek Easter celebrations are over. Port police procedures will be revised; the present proposal is that a visit is needed on first entry to the country, and after that, only once per year. Also, no permissions are needed to haul out or launch boats. We have a copy of the relevant law (in Greek), but I do not know if it has been gazetted yet. As usual, it raises more questions than it answers. But yes, it seems boat reporting procedures in Greece will be radically simplified.

 

[Tony Cross]

Seriously, do you think that the troika of lenders required a specific circulation tax on leisure boats ? Do you think that IMF, ECB and EU members were involved in its redaction or that the text was submitted to their approval before its presentation to the Greek parliament ? Do you imagine one minute that the troika controls every details of a general fiscal law and says "yes" or "no" to the Greek ministry of Economy ?

The troika has two functions : a) it defines the general economic aims and the time limits (in so-called "memorandums"); b) it verifies every 3 months the good implementation of the program of reforms dictated in these "memorandums". Do you think that it also write out or even control every paragraph of every new law ?

So from all this I assume you're trying to suggest that the troika of lenders do not want Greece to raise €20million per year through a tax on leisure boats? Or perhaps you're suggesting that those naughty Greeks have slipped this one in under the radar and the troika will be really cross if they find out about it?

Greece's economy IS effectively run by the troika. Do you imagine Greece would be selling off state assets if it were otherwise?

Anyway, several reforms imposed to Greece (and to Portugal) by the troika were already found illegal either by the european parliament (Greece, rights of work, 2012) or by Constitutional Courts (Greece, Portugal, 2012-2013).
Why not this one ?

Is the European Parliament challenging the legality of this tax? Do they have any plans to even look at the legality of this tax?

For the last point you raise, if EU is not sesu stricto a country, it has like a country external borders and its state members are not allowed to do all what they could want about customs, taxes and circulation of european citizens at the internal borders.

I quote from the EU website at http://europa.eu/pol/tax/index_en.htm

"National governments are responsible for raising taxes and setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is therefore decided by your national government, not the EU."

 

[westernman]

We also had indications that the Ministry of Finance would not agree to different approaches between visitor boats and boats used by Greek residents

They cannot use different approaches between EU (not sure about non EU) boats visiting and boats used by Greek residents as that is not permitted by EU law. The law has to be applied in a uniform way.

Segolene Royal just got told off in France in no uncertain terms for proposing an Eco tax which would only be collected from foreign trucks. You can't do that. You have to apply it to every body. Hence suggestions that all (French and foreign) trucks pay 1000 euros or so for a vignette allowing them to use roads in France (which will go down really well with French trucking companies).

 

[Peio64]

So from all this I assume you're trying to suggest that the troika of lenders do not want Greece to raise €20million per year through a tax on leisure boats? Or perhaps you're suggesting that those naughty Greeks have slipped this one in under the radar and the troika will be really cross if they find out about it?

No. I am trying to suggest that the troika is not in charge of writing Greek laws nor it is in charge of verifying that this redaction complies with international or even national rules. As I said before, several Greek and Portuguese laws promulgated under the auspices of the troika were cancelled because they were declared illegal either by the european parliament or by Constitutional courts of these nations.

I quote from the EU website at http://europa.eu/pol/tax/index_en.htm

"National governments are responsible for raising taxes and setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is therefore decided by your national government, not the EU."

Yes : they are responsible of raising taxes for their residents. Not for residents of other countries. As you say : "the taxes I pay have been decided by my national government", not by the Greek one. This is the core of the present problem

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

They cannot use different approaches between EU (not sure about non EU) boats visiting and boats used by Greek residents as that is not permitted by EU law. The law has to be applied in a uniform way.

In this case, they should use different approaches between Greek (or resident's) boats and other EU boats. Let's compare for example to the Belgium annual circulation tax for cars : what would you say if you had to pay this tax because you are visiting Belgium for some weeks with your car registered in UK ?

Segolene Royal just got told off in France in no uncertain terms for proposing an Eco tax which would only be collected from foreign trucks. You can't do that. You have to apply it to every body. Hence suggestions that all (French and foreign) trucks pay 1000 euros or so for a vignette allowing them to use roads in France (which will go down really well with French trucking companies).

Segolène Royal would like to replace the so-called "ecotax" which was aimed at financing transport infrastructures by something that foreign trucks in transit would have to pay for participating to the financement of the roads they use
for going, for example, from Belgium to Spain, without anything to do in France except using the roads.
This is pretty different from the Greek circulation tax for leisure boats since, as far as I know, we do not use any Greek infrastructure when we sail Greek waters. One more time, nobody would complain if we had to pay a sojourn tax based on the sojourn duration in harbours or marinas, where a service (even minimal) is rendered.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

Is this the letter sent by the European Boating Associations?

No. This one was sent by the association STW. I think that you (the CA) should receive a copy soon.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Steve C Cronin]

IF, we got rid of this "EU" nonsense, we could go back to the days when we didn't put obstacles in the way of visitors to our respective counties and actually welcomed them to come and spend their "foreign currency" in our individual lands. Levys on ANY outside potential sources of revenue are the work of madmen! Get 'em spending at the tavernas and bars and THEN tax the tavernas and bars.

 

[rotrax]

IF, we got rid of this "EU" nonsense, we could go back to the days when we didn't put obstacles in the way of visitors to our respective counties and actually welcomed them to come and spend their "foreign currency" in our individual lands. Levys on ANY outside potential sources of revenue are the work of madmen! Get 'em spending at the tavernas and bars and THEN tax the tavernas and bars.

I thought lack of success at tax collecting is one of the factors in why Greece got in the $H1t in the first place.

There's a hole in my bucket, Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa.......................

 

[Steve C Cronin]

I thought lack of success at tax collecting is one of the factors in why Greece got in the $H1t in the first place.

There's a hole in my bucket, Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa.......................

So, you are saying that because this basket case country can't collect taxes selectively from it's own citizens that we should accept their idiosyncratic shortcoming and that we should ALL pay them?

 

[Tony Cross]

Yes : they are responsible of raising taxes for their residents. Not for residents of other countries. As you say : "the taxes I pay have been decided by my national government", not by the Greek one. This is the core of the present problem

So when in Greece you refuse to pay VAT because you're not a Greek resident? Did you refuse to pay the (now old) €0.88 tax when lifting in or out because you're not a Greek resident? So there ARE taxes that apply to everyone in a particular country, apparently including this one.