New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[westernman]

Sorry, but I am French citizen, I pay the "DAN" for my French-flaged boat and I have friends, also French citizens, who own boats with foreign flags who do not pay the "droit de passeport" because their boat has never been located in France (they do not even have to declare to French customs they own a boat, why should they do this ? )

Peio
Haize Egoa

Because they are supposed to ;-)

Because according to customs they should pay the tax. In the same way you should declare that you have an offshore bank account and pay income tax on the interest you earned on that and also account for it towards your inheritance tax calculation.

I guess that the controls for "offshore" boats are even less rigorous than for offshore bank accounts ;-)

Customs would of course know that your friends own a boat if it was previously registered in France either as a french flagged boat or for a "passeport". However, if they bought it from some one who is not french, then of course they are not going to know. At least not until they have agreements with all foreign ports to send the details to the french authorities of anyone having a french address.

In reality I would not expect your friends to go to the french customs blagging about their boat in Greece (or where ever it is).

 

[charles_reed]

Because they are supposed to ;-)

Because according to customs they should pay the tax. In the same way you should declare that you have an offshore bank account and pay income tax on the interest you earned on that and also account for it towards your inheritance tax calculation.

I guess that the controls for "offshore" boats are even less rigorous than for offshore bank accounts ;-)

Customs would of course know that your friends own a boat if it was previously registered in France either as a french flagged boat or for a "passeport". However, if they bought it from some one who is not french, then of course they are not going to know. At least not until they have agreements with all foreign ports to send the details to the french authorities of anyone having a french address.

In reality I would not expect your friends to go to the french customs blagging about their boat in Greece (or where ever it is).

If mutterings from IR are anything to go on all those UK citizens found to have offshore accounts, for which they have not rigorously accounted, will be deemed to be evading tax and fined accordingly. Starting 2014/5 Tax Year.
Which makes Steve's passionate indignation against the Greek Boat Tax a real storm in an egg-cup.

Good luck to Peio64 and his compatriots - may they have every opportunity and good fortune in avoiding the Greek Boat Tax, if and when it ever arrives.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Hem... What are these "more lenient" regulations ? Where is this mentionned in the directive ?

"Article 9
Special arrangements
1. Member States may maintain and/or introduce more liberal arrangements than those provided for in this Directive. "

Further, it is never said that cars are a special category of vehicles.
On the contrary, Art. 1.1 of the directive states that :

"1. Member States shall, under the conditions laid down below, exempt temporary imports from another Member State of motor-driven road vehicles (including their trailers), caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles, tricycles and saddle-horses"

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make is that with all these items, "temporary import" is what matters - in other words, where the boat/car is. And, as you say, they're all in the same EU bag.

The only requirement is that all taxes (VAT, import taxes etc.) on the "MoT" are up to date at the moment of its "temporay importation". If Greek customs have doubts about the preliminary payment of these taxes at any moment, it is liable to ask the owner to prove it. For the French boats owned by French persons, the "Francisation Act" is enough because its delivery is linked to the preliminary payment of all taxes, just like the "vehicle documentation" for a car.

Where is the mess ?!?

One mess is that UK boats do not have to be registered, and if they are, registration does not prove that import and VAT taxes have been paid. Another mess is that there is not a universal boating equivalent of a car circulation tax, so case law for car circulation taxes can not predict how boats taxation should be treated.

 

[Peio64]

"Article 9

Special arrangements
1. Member States may maintain and/or introduce more liberal arrangements than those provided for in this Directive. "

Yes : "More liberal"
i.e. what the directive describes is the minimum. For example, a country is liable to consent 1 year of temporary import, but certainly not less than 6 months what is the minimum given in the directive.

One mess is that UK boats do not have to be registered, and if they are, registration does not prove that import and VAT taxes have been paid. Another mess is that there is not a universal boating equivalent of a car circulation tax, so case law for car circulation taxes can not predict how boats taxation should be treated.

They are two different questions in your statment :

1- The problem of the clearance of "general" EU taxes (VAT, import tax if the car --or any other MoT-- has been imported from outside EU).

If the documents of the boat are not proving that these taxes have been payed, Greek customs can indeed ask you to prove it with the ad-hoc fiscal and, possibly, customs documents. The French "acte de francisation" prove it by itself because the preliminary payment of these taxes is necessary for its delivery by French customs.

2- Car (or boat, or bicycle, or saddle-horse) circulation tax of the country of origin.

This has nothing to do here. The directive does not say that you are exempt of specific taxes of the country into which you temporarily import you car (or boat, or bicycle, or saddle-horse) only if you have paid equivalent specific taxes for these MoT in your own country.
It says that you are exempt of any tax provided that you are clear with VAT and possible import taxes.
Not all countries have circulation tax for cars. Greece has but is not allowed to ask you to pay the Greek circulation tax if you temporarily import a car from a country wich has not. This is clearly stated in the directive and in the jurisprudence about this directive.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

Because they are supposed to ;-)

Because according to customs they should pay the tax. In the same way you should declare that you have an offshore bank account and pay income tax on the interest you earned on that and also account for it towards your inheritance tax calculation.

I guess that the controls for "offshore" boats are even less rigorous than for offshore bank accounts ;-)

Customs would of course know that your friends own a boat if it was previously registered in France either as a french flagged boat or for a "passeport". However, if they bought it from some one who is not french, then of course they are not going to know. At least not until they have agreements with all foreign ports to send the details to the french authorities of anyone having a french address.

In reality I would not expect your friends to go to the french customs blagging about their boat in Greece (or where ever it is).

You are wrong because you are confused with tax authorities and customs which are two distinct entities (at least in France).
You declare your income (and thus a possible offshore bank account) to the tax authorities, but you pay the DAN (or the "droit de passeport") to customs which have nothing to do with your income (if you do not try to introduce illegally currencies from your offshore account).
If you do not import temporarily or definitively a boat (or other MoT) in France, French customs have nothing to do with the boat and you have not to pay import taxes or circulation tax (this so-called "droit de passeport").

The only case you have to declare the boat to tax authorities (but not to customs) is when you are liable for paying the so-called "impôt sur la fortune" ("tax on capital") which is, I think, typically French. But this is only if your taxable patrimony is greater than 2.57 millions Euros (unfortunately, not so many persons have to declare it :nonchalance

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[westernman]

You are wrong because you are confused with tax authorities and customs which are two distinct entities (at least in France).
You declare your income (and thus a possible offshore bank account) to the tax authorities, but you pay the DAN (or the "droit de passeport") to customs which have nothing to do with your income (if you do not try to introduce illegally currencies from your offshore account).
If you do not import temporarily or definitively a boat (or other MoT) in France, French customs have nothing to do with the boat and you have not to pay import taxes or circulation tax (this so-called "droit de passeport").

The only case you have to declare the boat to tax authorities (but not to customs) is when you are liable for paying the so-called "impôt sur la fortune" ("tax on capital") which is, I think, typically French. But this is only if your taxable patrimony is greater than 2.57 millions Euros (unfortunately, not so many persons have to declare it :nonchalance

Peio
Haize Egoa

I never said you have to declare your boat to the tax authorities.

You are supposed to declare it to the customs authorities and apply for a "droite de passeport" and pay your "navigation" tax to them. Even if your boat is foreign flagged (which it is of course for the "droite de passport" to apply), and even if it is not in France and even if it has never been in France, even if it is not in the water and even if you are not using it!

All French residents who own a boat have to pay this tax. It is a property tax. That is the words of French customs.

Please reread the customs circular on exactly this subject I posted earlier in particular this section:-

C. Conditions d'applications

Les dispositions du Code des douanes relatives au droit de passeport s'appliquent sans considération :

• du lieu de navigation du navire (dans ou hors des eaux territoriales françaises) ;

• du lieu de stationnement du navire (dans ou hors des eaux françaises) ;

• de l'utilisation du navire (navire hors de l'eau, absence d'utilisation...) ;

• des droits éventuels acquittés par le plaisancier auprès de l'Etat du pavillon.

Ainsi, même si un navire est stationné dans un port étranger et navigue uniquement hors des eaux françaises, son propriétaire sera tout de même redevable du droit de passeport, ce droit étant un impôt uniquement attaché à la propriété ou à l'utilisation du navire par un résident français.

 

[Peio64]

I never said you have to declare your boat to the tax authorities.

You are supposed to declare it to the customs authorities and apply for a "droite de passeport" and pay your "navigation" tax to them. Even if your boat is foreign flagged (which it is of course for the "droite de passport" to apply), and even if it is not in France and even if it has never been in France, even if it is not in the water and even if you are not using it!

All French residents who own a boat have to pay this tax. It is a property tax. That is the words of French customs.

Please reread the customs circular on exactly this subject I posted earlier in particular this section:-

Yes, I know it.

But if you read what Sybarit have published in the message #1271 of this thread, you realize that this disposition is not applicable for many reasons including primarily :

1- "article 237 C.Douanes : tout navire étranger qui prend la mer au départ d'un port doit avoir à son bord un passeport délivré par le service des douanes." As Me Dahan (lawyer) points out : "it is implicit that the harbour has to be a French one" since :

2- C. Douanes art. 1 : 1. Le territoire douanier comprend les territoires et les eaux territoriales de la France continentale, de la Corse, des îles françaises voisines du littoral, et des départements d'outre-mer de la Guadeloupe, de la Guyane, de la Martinique et de la Réunion."


So, French customs have no right and no means to leive a tax or to impose a fine outside of French territorial waters. The "droit de passeport" can only be required from owners or users of boats which which sail French territorial waters at any moment.
This is a different problem as far as fiscal authorities are concerned by this property.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[westernman]

So, French customs have no right and no means to leive a tax or to impose a fine outside of French territorial waters. The "droit de passeport" can only be required from owners or users of boats which which sail French territorial waters at any moment.
This is a different problem as far as fiscal authorities are concerned by this property.

That is the opinion of a lawyer.

But this is not what the customs authorities are being told to do or think by the "Inspecteur des Finances".

The lawyer might be right. Any one want to test this in the courts???

NB this is totally different to the issue as to how they can check up on you - particularly on a boat which is not in France!

 

[jimbaerselman]

Yes : "More liberal"
i.e. what the directive describes is the minimum. For example, a country is liable to consent 1 year of temporary import, but certainly not less than 6 months what is the minimum given in the directive.

My point was that Greece takes advantage of this provision, and does not put any time limits on temporary import. So it is arguable whether this is temporary import . . .

If it is not a temporary import, the directive does not apply. But taxes might!

 

[Peio64]

That is the opinion of a lawyer.

Not only : this is the common rule. National customs can act only at the territorial borders or inside of these borders (exception are admitted for the control of illicit substances).

But this is not what the customs authorities are being told to do or think by the "Inspecteur des Finances".

Yes, but as what they were told is not applicable, this is not applied. This contradiction between national laws or rules and the possibility or not to implement them with respect to other laws or rules bring us back to the Greek tax topic

The lawyer might be right. Any one want to test this in the courts???

IMHO, nobody wants to go to court. To avoid this unlikely situation is very easy : if your are French resident and you own (or use) a foreign-flaged boat always outside of French territorial waters, you do not ask for a "passeport" at the French customs, that's all.

NB this is totally different to the issue as to how they can check up on you - particularly on a boat which is not in France!

Yes. And we were speaking about a boat which never is in France, in any way.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

My point was that Greece takes advantage of this provision, and does not put any time limits on temporary import. So it is arguable whether this is temporary import . . .

Because of this directive, it can not be a temporary import once you had to pay a tax at the border of the EU country into which you intend to temporarily import your MoT.

If it is not a temporary import, the directive does not apply. But taxes might!

Yes. But Greece has no right to prohibit temporary import of MoT owned by EU citizens who are not Greek residents, that's the point

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[westernman]

Not only : this is the common rule. National customs can act only at the territorial borders or inside of these borders (exception are admitted for the control of illicit substances).



Yes, but as what they were told is not applicable, this is not applied. This contradiction between national laws or rules and the possibility or not to implement them with respect to other laws or rules bring us back to the Greek tax topic



IMHO, nobody wants to go to court. To avoid this unlikely situation is very easy :If your are French resident and you own (or use) a foreign-flaged boat always outside of French territorial waters, you do not ask for a "passeport" at the French customs, that's all.



Yes. And we were speaking about a boat which never is in France, in any way.

Peio
Haize Egoa

The trouble might arise if you are french resident and you buy a boat from some one else who is french resident who had a "Passeport" and then sailed his boat to Greece and you bought it from him while it was there.

The customs may well turn up on your door step and ask to see your "passeport".

However, I think they are far more concerned about the pot heads returning from Andorra ;-)

 

[Peio64]

The trouble might arise if you are french resident and you buy a boat from some one else who is french resident who had a "Passeport" and then sailed his boat to Greece and you bought it from him while it was there.

You push the argument to its deadly end
If this french resident does not want to pay anymore the "passeport" for the boat he sold out, he has just to declare to customs that he sold out the boat. But since the boat does not fly French flag, he has not to declare who is the new owner of the boat. The sales of such boats do not concern French customs but customs of the country of registration of the boat.

However, I think they are far more concerned about the pot heads returning from Andorra ;-)

I agree with this

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[jimbaerselman]

The Cruising Association has just updated New Greek Cruising Tax | CA to reflect the big relaxation in Port Police reporting which was introduced on April 14th with law 4256.

 

[Peio64]

The Cruising Association has just updated New Greek Cruising Tax | CA to reflect the big relaxation in Port Police reporting which was introduced on April 14th with law 4256.

Hi, Jim

What a success !

- You still have to pay a DEKPA. This is now in addition of the tax;
- Let say you cruise Greek waters in a 14m yacht yacht between june 26th and Agust 5h. You have to pay 3 full months (420 €). If your boat is 11,90, this is almost the same amount (a full year, 400 €);
- You write : "there will be a central on-line registry". This means that circulation of intra-CE goods is now under control in Greece. Moreover, since these goods are "MoT", this control is actually extended to the owners or users of these goods.
- You also write : "Port police have the right to visit the boat for the purpose of ensuring dues are paid". Is this belonging to "the big relaxation" ?

What you forgot to say (or to ask for Greek authorities) is what would happen to you if you refuse to pay the tax. Should the boat be immobilized ? Seized ? Do they plan to place you under arrest ?

In summary, I will be pleased to pay this small amount of money in exchange of this huge relaxation :encouragement:

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Tony Cross]

You can't please all of the people all of the time and it seems you can't please some people at all. Such is life.

 

[sailaboutvic]

If I got my sums right , for a 12 mts yacht , sailing the six summer months , it would be 200 pounds plus cheaper to sail in Croatia then it is in Greece .
Mmmmm .

 

[Chris_Robb]

If I got my sums right , for a 12 mts yacht , sailing the six summer months , it would be 200 pounds plus cheaper to sail in Croatia then it is in Greece .
Mmmmm .

Vic, it would be interesting to see how you worked that out.

 

[affinite]

Sounds like some good progress Jim.
Unsurprisingly, confusion still reigns on the ground
I was sent from Leros to Kos by PP last week to pay the 88 cents tax on my "putting the boat in the water fee"
Didnt mind as Kos was on the itinerary anyway and going into the Kos tax office with my €1 coin in-hand was quite amusing.

Kalymnos Port Police still had no knowledge about the new tax

 

[sailaboutvic]

Vic, it would be interesting to see how you worked that out.

Hi Chris
the info I got is from Richard and I sure the info is correct as he is based in Croatia , if you take a look at the Croatia posting just a week ago you will be able to see how it is worked out or should I say how Richard have worked it out for me .
yes I sure people will say that , ( yea but the charges for going into port , marina are sky high and your charged for anchoring ) well we very rarely go into a port , we don't use marina and as far as anchoring goes , that depend how much of a soft target you are ,
As I did last year for Italy , South of France , Sardinia and Corsica I will have a full and true fully info on where we go ,what we find and any cost incur on our blog . so hopefully it will help other who follow in our wake .
, And the way Greece is going I guess there be a few more .

SOJOURN TAX 2014
9 -12 m : Up to 8 days HRK200
Up to 15 days HRK350
Up to 30 days HRK500
Up to 90 days HRK650
HRK 300.00 Navigation Fee for us
HRK 110 Light Dues
HRK 40 Sea Fees
HRK 20 Chart Fees
VIGNETTE 2014
Navigation fee is calculated using LOA and engine power:
Navigation fee = 20 * Length + 2 * Engine Kilowatts

so for us it works out 1120 HRK , That's just over 120 pounds