New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[charles_reed]

So when in Greece you refuse to pay VAT because you're not a Greek resident? Did you refuse to pay the (now old) €0.88 tax when lifting in or out because you're not a Greek resident? So there ARE taxes that apply to everyone in a particular country, apparently including this one.

As a notorious Labour politician once said; "It's the duty of every citizen to avoid paying unnecessary taxes to the government, who'll only misuse the money.."
I applaud Peio64 's and his countrymen's attempt to avoid this tax - unfortunately we Brits have no such convenient loophole to exploit.
The irony of it all is that the pressure to apply this tax is being exerted by the troika, ie the EU and the IMF (and the latter has an uncommon competent Francaise in charge).
Whether Marine lePen's recent success in the local elections is down to dislike of Hollande or the Community-wide revulsion against the lack of democratic accountability of the Commission and a reversion to good-old nationalism, I glimpse some of this in Peio64's remarks.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I thought lack of success at tax collecting is one of the factors in why Greece got in the $H1t in the first place.

There's a hole in my bucket, Dear Lisa, Dear Lisa.......................

Not only the lack of tax collecting, but the outright bribery of the population by politicians, inflating wages and jobs not only in the civil service but also all the state owned enterprises. Both these then also had bad restrictive practises - the unions generally only allowed the family of people already employed, to get a job.

So the reduction in GDP is in fact only a reduction in an utterly fictitious figure, The complaints about austerity are just wrong. Of course you have to cut - especially jobs and spanish practices that are excessive, otherwise there really is no hope.

As for the supposed recovery of the Greek finances (the oversubscribed bond issue), this is entirely off the back of Mario saying he will do what ever it takes and institutions hunt for returns.....

Their recovery is a long way off, and will not be helped by their continued presence in the Euro. Oh - but I forgot - all new countries joining the EU HAVE to join the Euro.......

Nightmare:disgust:

 

[jimbaerselman]

Oh dear. Is this thread going all political again?

I've found Peio's remarks most helpful in clarifying the weaknesses of the EU directive concerning Means of Transport. I understand his case for moving to a sojourn tax. I also understand the expense of gathering a sojourn tax - lots of small amounts being gathered on a daily basis.

Many transport systems have got around this inefficiency by introducing pre-payment lump sums - either for season tickets, or for pay as you go systems (London's Oyster cards). These stop leakages into collector's pockets, and shift policing into random checks and fines.

In Greece, of course, pay as you go has notoriously failed. The cost of daily patrolling harbours, quaysides and anchorages to gather daily small amounts easily exceeded the money gathered. Hence the "come to our office" system. But very few obeyed, and the cost of chasing them was, again, too high.

So the Greeks intend to go for season tickets if you anchor/moor/sail from place to place in Greek waters. Unless, of course, they are forced back into day by day gathering port dues - properly allowing for collection costs.

Which would you prefer?

 

[RichardS]

Lets start working on Croatia frst . . .

I'm not totally sure that's necessary Jim.

I was in Croatia a couple of weeks ago and asked the marina staff if I could them pay the Visitors Boating Tax – like the Greek one I think, but cheaper – but they said that I had to pay the Harbourmaster. I asked if I could pay the Port Police as they have an office next door but that was no good. The nearest HM is sitting in an office on his own about 10 miles away.

I asked the marina staff whether they have to report our presence to any HM but they said only if asked.

As it turns out, towards the end of our visit we had to drive past the HM office on the way to Split to collect 50m of chain so we called in and the HM happened to be there. He seemed delighted that we had called in to pay so we gave him our £20 and he gave us the correct stamped paperwork and everyone was happy. He wasn’t bothered by the fact that we had already been in Croatia for a week and were due to leave a couple of days later.

As we left, my wife asked me whether I thought anyone else ever paid, apart, perhaps, from boats staying in his harbour which, in theory, he might see come and go. I don't know the answer but I probably wouldn't have made the trip if I didn’t have a car as the taxi fare would probably be more than the tax.

Richard

 

[Sybarite]

Yes, I have to pay annually this tax called "DAN" or "Droit Annuel de Navigation" and I pay it since I have Haize Egoa which has never been based in a French harbour (I moved she to Turquey immediately after buying she). Interestingly, this tax is not based on the location of the boat but on the location of its owner, i.e. on the location of the "main residency" of this owner, which also define his fiscal residency. Since I have my home in the SW of France where I live more than 6 months/year, I pay my income taxes in France and thus, I pay also the DAN.


Peio
Haize Egoa

This is the point that Me Dahan specifically contested whilst acknowleding that this was in fact how the autorities (wrongly in his opinion) applied the DAN. His point was that the "fait générateur" was the boat's movement and was not related to residence or to the owner.

From his point of view you are not liable to the DAN because you do not sail fom your French base.

droit de passeport
Par pavillon le 05/09/12
le droit de passeport est exigible pour tout bâteau battant pavillon étranger quittant un port français.
le droit de passeport est exigible pour tout bâteau battant pavillon étranger dont le propriétaire est résident français.
question: si le bâteau est stationné dans un pays de la CE, hors de France, le passeport est-il exigible si le bâteau ne quitte pas le port - ne prend pas la mer ?



RE: droit de passeport
Par ariel.dahan le 20/09/12
C'est précisément un point que je suis en train de soumettre au Tribunal Administratif...

 

[charles_reed]

This is the point that Me Dahan specifically contested whilst acknowleding that this was in fact how the autorities (wrongly in his opinion) applied the DAN. His point was that the "fait générateur" was the boat's movement and was not related to residence or to the owner.

From his point of view you are not liable to the DAN because you do not sail fom your French base.

droit de passeport
Par pavillon le 05/09/12
le droit de passeport est exigible pour tout bâteau battant pavillon étranger quittant un port français.
le droit de passeport est exigible pour tout bâteau battant pavillon étranger dont le propriétaire est résident français.
question: si le bâteau est stationné dans un pays de la CE, hors de France, le passeport est-il exigible si le bâteau ne quitte pas le port - ne prend pas la mer ?



RE: droit de passeport
Par ariel.dahan le 20/09/12
C'est précisément un point que je suis en train de soumettre au Tribunal Administratif...

Let's see if I've got it right.

If Peio64 has his boat kept outside French waters, even though he, personally, is resident in France, he should not be paying his DAN. Even if his local tax-office demands it be paid.
Therefore, in the eyes of the EC lawyers, his case for making the Greek circulation tax on boats declared illegal has fallen before the first fence.
Perhaps the CA had it right?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Let's see if I've got it right.

If Peio64 has his boat kept outside French waters, even though he, personally, is resident in France, he should not be paying his DAN. Even if his local tax-office demands it be paid.
Therefore, in the eyes of the EC lawyers, his case for making the Greek circulation tax on boats declared illegal has fallen before the first fence.
Perhaps the CA had it right?

I think that makes sense. Morally it makes sense too as he should be paying where it is used. Oh dear, I have just talked myself into the tax!

 

[Sybarite]

Let's see if I've got it right.

If Peio64 has his boat kept outside French waters, even though he, personally, is resident in France, he should not be paying his DAN. Even if his local tax-office demands it be paid.
Therefore, in the eyes of the EC lawyers, his case for making the Greek circulation tax on boats declared illegal has fallen before the first fence.
Perhaps the CA had it right?

From a 2006 article by Me Dahan ( extract)

Droit de Passeport : précisions contentieuses.
Le droit de Passeport continue de faire couler beaucoup d’encre, et de générer du contentieux.
En effet, confronté à l’exode massif des navires français vers d’autres cieux plus cléments, la Direction des Douanes semble avoir sur-réagie, en multipliant les contrôles et en exigeant l’acquittement des droits de passeport à des propriétaires ou utilisateurs du navire résidants en France, alors même que le navire n’est pas localisé en France.
Rappelons en exergue ce qu'est le Passeport et ce qu'est le Droit de Passeport.
Le Passeport est un document que tout navire étranger doit posséder pour pouvoir prendre la mer depuis un port français.
Ce document, lorsqu'il se rapporte à un navire de plaisance, est payant si son propriétaire ou utilisateur sont domiciliés en France au sens fiscal.
Or, s’il est exact que l’article 238 du Code des Douanes dispose :
«​Le passeport délivré aux navires de plaisance ou de sport appartenant à des personnes physiques ou morales, quelle que soit leur nationalité, ayant leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France, ou dont ces mêmes personnes ont la jouissance, est soumis à un visa annuel donnant lieu à la perception d'un droit de passeport. »
Il faut néanmoins conjuguer cette disposition avec celle claire et précise de l’article 237 du même code :
« Tout navire étranger qui prend la mer doit avoir à bord un passeport délivré par le service de douanes. »
Il en ressort nécessairement que le passeport n’est pas du à raison de la seule résidence fiscale du propriétaire ou du bénéficiaire du navire, mais également, et surtout, à raison de la sortie du navire d’un port.
Faut-il ajouter, s’agissant du code des Douanes, qu’il ne peut s’agir que d’un port « Français »…
En effet, le Code des Douanes de la République Française a une portée territoriale limitée exclusivement à son territoire national, ces dispositions ne sont plus applicables aux navires qui, bien que propriété d’un résident fiscal en France, seraient définitivement hors de France.
J’en veux pour preuve les dispositions des articles 1 et 2 du Code des Douanes :
« Article 1er
« 1. Le territoire douanier comprend les territoires et les eaux territoriales de la France continentale, de la Corse, des îles françaises voisines du littoral, et des départements d'outre-mer de la Guadeloupe, de la Guyane, de la Martinique et de la Réunion.
2. Des zones franches, soustraites à tout ou partie du régime des douanes, peuvent être constituées dans les territoires susvisés.
3. Des territoires ou parties de territoires étrangers peuvent être inclus dans le territoire douanier. »
Ce qui me fait dire que le passeport ne peut être une taxe sur la propriété ou l’usage, mais uniquement un droit sur le passage ou la présence du navire dans les eaux territoriales françaises. Il faut parfois revenir à l’évidence du corps du texte douanier : le passeport n’est obligatoire qu’à la condition qu’un bateau étranger prenne la mer ! (Depuis la France, car je vois mal comment les Douaniers pourraient savoir quand un navire de plaisance prend la mer entre Tobago et Trinidad …)
En décider autrement reviendrait à faire du droit de passeport une taxe d’effet équivalent à un droit de douane dans les relations intracommunautaires, ce qui est prohibé par l’article 25 du Traité CE.
En outre, considérer le seul critère de la résidence du propriétaire ou du bénéficiaire sans prendre en compte le critère de l’immatriculation du navire revient à limiter de fait la libre circulation au sein de l’Union Européenne, alors même que le droit européen a imposé aux Etats d’autoriser chaque ressortissant d’un Etat Membre à immatriculer son navire dans le pays de son choix ;
Enfin, vouloir imposer à une personne résident en France de soumettre un bien qui n’a aucun rattachement territorial avec la France au droit douanier français, constituerait manifestement une discrimination interdite par les dispositions claires et précises de l’article 90 (ex article 95) alinéa 2 du Traité des Communautés Européennes, qui dispose, au titre des dispositions fiscales :
« Article 90 (ex-article 95) :
Aucun État membre ne frappe directement ou indirectement les produits des autres États membres d'impositions intérieures, de quelque nature qu'elles soient, supérieures à celles qui frappent directement ou indirectement les produits nationaux similaires.
En outre, aucun État membre ne frappe les produits des autres États membres d'impositions intérieures de nature à protéger indirectement d'autres productions. »
De toute évidence, l’application d’un droit de passeport à un navire qui ne se trouve sur le territoire français à aucun moment de l’année fiscale de référence constitue bien une imposition intérieure destinée à protéger indirectement « d’autres productions » françaises, dont notamment l’immatriculation des navires de plaisance en France.

 

[Peio64]

So when in Greece you refuse to pay VAT because you're not a Greek resident? Did you refuse to pay the (now old) €0.88 tax when lifting in or out because you're not a Greek resident? So there ARE taxes that apply to everyone in a particular country, apparently including this one.

You forgot Greek import taxes that I also pay when I am in Greece and when I buy somethig outside EU (meanwhile I pay French import taxes and French VAT when I am in France, or German import taxes and German VAT when I buy something in Germany even if it is from France).
Maybe you discover EU rules, but actually they are not the same for import taxes, VAT and, in another hand, a lot of other "local" taxes such as circulation tax or registration tax for vehicles.

You have the complete documentation about these different rules at your disposal on Internet. Why not to read it before asking strange questions here ?

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[westernman]

Let's see if I've got it right.

If Peio64 has his boat kept outside French waters, even though he, personally, is resident in France, he should not be paying his DAN. Even if his local tax-office demands it be paid.
Therefore, in the eyes of the EC lawyers, his case for making the Greek circulation tax on boats declared illegal has fallen before the first fence.
Perhaps the CA had it right?

No. The tax is payable by any resident in France who has a boat (or the use of a boat) regardless as to where that boat is, and whether he uses the boat or not, or whether the boat is actually in the water or not.

The piece of paper you get in return is the "passeport" for the boat if it has a foreign registration. French customs can ask for this for a boat leaving a french port. Obviously they cannot ask for it if the boat is in Greece! However that does not change the obligation to pay the tax.

 

[Peio64]

Oh dear. Is this thread going all political again?

I've found Peio's remarks most helpful in clarifying the weaknesses of the EU directive concerning Means of Transport. I understand his case for moving to a sojourn tax. I also understand the expense of gathering a sojourn tax - lots of small amounts being gathered on a daily basis.

Many transport systems have got around this inefficiency by introducing pre-payment lump sums - either for season tickets, or for pay as you go systems (London's Oyster cards). These stop leakages into collector's pockets, and shift policing into random checks and fines.

In Greece, of course, pay as you go has notoriously failed. The cost of daily patrolling harbours, quaysides and anchorages to gather daily small amounts easily exceeded the money gathered. Hence the "come to our office" system. But very few obeyed, and the cost of chasing them was, again, too high.

So the Greeks intend to go for season tickets if you anchor/moor/sail from place to place in Greek waters. Unless, of course, they are forced back into day by day gathering port dues - properly allowing for collection costs.

Which would you prefer?

Hi Jim,

I understand your reasoning but some of its logical points escape me.

First of all, to leive a sojourn tax would be legal from the EU point of view. To leive an annual circulation tax is very likely illegal for EU boats visiting Greece no longer than 6 months. I think that we have not to favor an illegal behaviour, whatever aims of this behaviour could be, good or bad.

Moreover, I do not think that the cost of "patrolling harbours, quaysides and anchorages" for controling the payment of the present tax will be less than the cost of controling only the payment of harbour/marina fees together with this hypothetical sojourn tax. Since a sojourn tax leived on "wild" moorings would be also illegal as it does not give anything in exchange of the payment (buoy, service or else), no control of this tax is needed in moorings or in open sea. This would allow more time for the control of immigration by the coast-guard patrols...

There is an other question which is the way to enforce the payment of the circulation tax owed by a boat out of compliance and catch by the patrol into a wild anchorage or in open sea. What can coast-guards do ? They come in board and seize the boat ? They coerce the owner under the menace of a machine-gun to sail toward the next harbour where his boat will be immobilized till he pays the tax and the fine ? Any of these actions are also completely illegal, again with respect to the EU rules.
If I ask this question, this is because last year I moored in Greek harbours only in two occasions during my 4 months of cruising in Greek waters (Samos/Pythagorion and Chios-city). This year, if the tax is enforced, I can totally miss these moorings and go only in wild anchorages. What should be the way they could use to oblige me to pay he tax, without mobilizing disproportionate, expensive and legally at risk means ?

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

No. The tax is payable by any resident in France who has a boat (or the use of a boat) regardless as to where that boat is, and whether he uses the boat or not, or whether the boat is actually in the water or not.

The piece of paper you get in return is the "passeport" for the boat if it has a foreign registration. French customs can ask for this for a boat leaving a french port. Obviously they cannot ask for it if the boat is in Greece! However that does not change the obligation to pay the tax.

Exactly. "DAN" (Droit Annuel de Navigation) is due by French residents (of French nationality or foreigners taxable in France) who own or use a boat >7m flying French flag with no respect to the localisation of the boat or to its effective usage. The "Droit de Passeport" addresses to the same persons but owning (or using) IN FRANCE a boat flying a foreign flag. The "Droit de Passeport" is calculated exactly as the "DAN" is, except for boats based in France and flying "flags of convenience" who are liable to pay 3 times the amount of the DAN (for boats of less of 15m) or 5 times the DAN for boats over 15m.

What should be kept in mind is that this tax only concerns French residents, not visitors, at the difference of the Greek tax.

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[charles_reed]

No. The tax is payable by any resident in France who has a boat (or the use of a boat) regardless as to where that boat is, and whether he uses the boat or not, or whether the boat is actually in the water or not.

The piece of paper you get in return is the "passeport" for the boat if it has a foreign registration. French customs can ask for this for a boat leaving a french port. Obviously they cannot ask for it if the boat is in Greece! However that does not change the obligation to pay the tax.

It would appear that there are two points of view on this first paragraph, one that the DAN is only necessary for a boat in French waters (whether French or other-flagged) the other that ANYONE, tax-resident in France, who owns a boat,outside France as well as within France, has to pay for a DAN.
The second is so palpably impossible to administer that I find it hard to believe that the normally logical French would indulge in such whimsy.
No doubt an avocat would be glad, for a fee, to express an opinion. Meanwhile you'll forgive me for suspending belief in that statement.

OR are we saying it's a sort of tax, payable for wearing a tricolore and having a French-registered boat? In which case the plea as to the illegality of the Greek tax going to be turned down by the Commission.

 

[westernman]

It would appear that there are two points of view on this first paragraph, one that the DAN is only necessary for a boat in French waters (whether French or other-flagged) the other that ANYONE, tax-resident in France, who owns a boat,outside France as well as within France, has to pay for a DAN.
The second is so palpably impossible to administer that I find it hard to believe that the normally logical French would indulge in such whimsy.
No doubt an avocat would be glad, for a fee, to express an opinion. Meanwhile you'll forgive me for suspending belief in that statement.

Sorry, anyone, resident in France who owns a boat outside of France as well as within France has to pay this tax.

Here is the relevant official bit:-

Ainsi, même si un navire est stationné dans un port étranger et navigue uniquement hors des eaux françaises, son propriétaire sera tout de même redevable du droit de passeport, ce droit étant un impôt uniquement attaché à la propriété ou à l'utilisation du navire par un résident français.

My Translation:-

Thus, even if a ship is stationed in a foreign port and navigates exclusively outside of french territorial waters, its owner will nevertheless be obliged to pay the "droit de passeport", this "droit de passeport" being a tax exclusively attached to the ownership or use of a ship by a french resident.

Here is the circular explaining this:-

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/informations/bulletins-officiels-des-douanes?da=11-011


PS sorry for the fred thrift.

 

[Peio64]

Sorry, anyone, resident in France who owns a boat outside of France as well as within France has to pay this tax.

Sorry, not exactly :

1- " anyone, resident in France who owns a boat registered in France outside of France as well as within France has to pay the tax."

This is the "DAN".

2- "anyone, resident in France who owns a boat not registered in France but mooring in French harbours also has to pay this tax.

This is the "Droit de Passeport" which is equivalent to the DAN except in two points, as I said above for the second time in this thread :

- the "droit de passeport" does not apply to boats registered outside of France which do not reach anytime French harbours, i.e. if you are UK citizen and French resident owning a boat >7m flying Brit' flag but based annually in Greece, you have not to pay the tax (at the difference of the same French resident who own a similar boat but flying French flag, my case).

- the "droit de passeport" can be multiplied by 3 or 5 (depending on the lenght of the boat) in case she flyes a "flag of convenience".

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[westernman]

the "droit de passeport" does not apply to boats registered outside of France which do not reach anytime French harbours, i.e. if you are UK citizen and French resident owning a boat >7m flying Brit' flag but based annually in Greece, you have not to pay the tax

That is not what the french custom's circular on their web site says.

 

[jimbaerselman]

PS sorry for the fred thrift.

Michael,

Not Fred drift at all. This goes to the heart of the uncertainty about the provisions for MoT being also applied to boats.

For private cars, it is all straightforward, with case law to back it up. That's because all EU countries (I believe!) levy a form of charge for universal road use. And if a car is to spend more than 6 months in any 12 within another country, it must pay local (circulation) taxes, rather than taxes in the country of its registration.

So, where the car is, is the issue.

Also car registration is tightly tied up with proof that VAT and any import duties have already been paid. No proof, no registration.

Boats are different. First, they're very slow, and tend to spend long periods based in places away form home. Sometimes they have people living aboard, sometimes not. A bit like caravans or mobile homes.

Each country has different criteria for registering boats. In some, registration is a complete trail of ownership and taxes paid en route. In others, it's just a nice ticket which proves nothing, but says that the person named said he owned the boat. And within UK you don't have to register boats under 24m at all.

Fees payable differ from country to country. France charges tax residents for boat ownership. Italy charges Italian Flag boats for having an Italian flag. Britain charges no-body anything for having a British Flag, or for being a tax resident of UK and being a boat owner. Almost all countries charge all boats for use of local facilities - but what facilities attract a charge is a big variable.

Because of this high variablity, the directive allows any country to set "more lenient" regulations when applying the directive. Also, since there is no universal type of circulation tax for boats (as there is for cars), it is not obvious that the car rules about fees or charges can be made to apply to boats, nor that the car rules would provide a satisfactory outcome.

Wot a mess, eh?

 

[Peio64]

Michael,

Not Fred drift at all. This goes to the heart of the uncertainty about the provisions for MoT being also applied to boats.

For private cars, it is all straightforward, with case law to back it up. That's because all EU countries (I believe!) levy a form of charge for universal road use. And if a car is to spend more than 6 months in any 12 within another country, it must pay local (circulation) taxes, rather than taxes in the country of its registration.

So, where the car is, is the issue.

Also car registration is tightly tied up with proof that VAT and any import duties have already been paid. No proof, no registration.

Boats are different. First, they're very slow, and tend to spend long periods based in places away form home. Sometimes they have people living aboard, sometimes not. A bit like caravans or mobile homes.

Each country has different criteria for registering boats. In some, registration is a complete trail of ownership and taxes paid en route. In others, it's just a nice ticket which proves nothing, but says that the person named said he owned the boat. And within UK you don't have to register boats under 24m at all.

Fees payable differ from country to country. France charges tax residents for boat ownership. Italy charges Italian Flag boats for having an Italian flag. Britain charges no-body anything for having a British Flag, or for being a tax resident of UK and being a boat owner. Almost all countries charge all boats for use of local facilities - but what facilities attract a charge is a big variable.

Because of this high variablity, the directive allows any country to set "more lenient" regulations when applying the directive. Also, since there is no universal type of circulation tax for boats (as there is for cars), it is not obvious that the car rules about fees or charges can be made to apply to boats, nor that the car rules would provide a satisfactory outcome.

Wot a mess, eh?

Hem... What are these "more lenient" regulations ? Where is this mentionned in the directive ?

Further, it is never said that cars are a special category of vehicles.
On the contrary, Art. 1.1 of the directive states that :

"1. Member States shall, under the conditions laid down below, exempt temporary imports from another Member State of motor-driven road vehicles (including their trailers), caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles, tricycles and saddle-horses"

All MoT are clearly put in the same bag, including "saddle-horses" which are not liable to registration nor to circulation tax in any country I know . This is also the case for the caravans you mentioned above.
The only requirement is that all taxes (VAT, import taxes etc.) on the "MoT" are up to date at the moment of its "temporay importation". If Greek customs have doubts about the preliminary payment of these taxes at any moment, it is liable to ask the owner to prove it. For the French boats owned by French persons, the "Francisation Act" is enough because its delivery is linked to the preliminary payment of all taxes, just like the "vehicle documentation" for a car.

Where is the mess ?!?

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Peio64]

That is not what the french custom's circular on their web site says.

Sorry, but I am French citizen, I pay the "DAN" for my French-flaged boat and I have friends, also French citizens, who own boats with foreign flags who do not pay the "droit de passeport" because their boat has never been located in France (they do not even have to declare to French customs they own a boat, why should they do this ? )

Peio
Haize Egoa

 

[Sybarite]

No. The tax is payable by any resident in France who has a boat (or the use of a boat) regardless as to where that boat is, and whether he uses the boat or not, or whether the boat is actually in the water or not.

The piece of paper you get in return is the "passeport" for the boat if it has a foreign registration. French customs can ask for this for a boat leaving a french port. Obviously they cannot ask for it if the boat is in Greece! However that does not change the obligation to pay the tax.

That is certainly how the tax is applied, but it's this practice that Me Dahan is criticizing by saying that the effect of French customs is territorially limited and, as actually applied, the droit would appear to contravene EU rules.