New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[duncan99210]

The proposed tax is, in my view, a pretty simple way of raising a bit of dosh from boat owners. There are reasonable breaks for commercial and charter owners, it has a simple structure and, from what is known so far about the collection system, cheap to collect. Other proposals to charge for the use of anchorages, increase the collection rate for harbour dues and other such schemes all suffer from the problem that they will probably cost a fair proportion of the tax take to actually collect and also miss the point that these charges are already in place and are failing to raise enough money.

You can argue the toss about why the Greek government needs to up the tax take but the fact remains that it does need to do so. Blame anyone you like, the fact remains that it has been decided by the government that this is how they're going to impose the tax and that leaves boat owners with a decision; stay in Greece or leave. Up to you.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Think on this.

Stored ashore out of use means exactly that. Out of Use.

If an owner steps aboard his boat to make a cup of coffee; shelter from the rain; do some maintenance then that boat is in use and becomes liable by definition for the tax.

I recall a similar definition of "out of use" in another EU country and an owner was not allowed anywhere near his boat. I think it was either France or Spain.

 

[Palarran]

In regards to some of the questions about boat ownership, I doubt that anyone inspecting my papers could figure out that I actually own it. It is registered in the BVI's under Palarran LTD and it's corporate agent is in the Cayman Islands. Nothing in the official papers of the boat show my name. Now, I do carry the corporate documents with me also in case there is some reason I need to produce them. In this case they would find that Palarran LTD has 100 shares all owned by me. For certain owners they could actually create additional corporations that would be listed as the owner of the first, nearly infinitely, in order to shield ownership. It's very common, not just with boats, but corporations, homes, jets, etc.

I won't wade too far into the rantings for paying this tax as it doesn't affect me. My boat is a foreign flagged boat and I had to pay a transit tax before with is nearly identical to the new tax euro for euro. I can say that even with the tax, it isn't a great amount more than I had to pay last year in Croatia. It would also take years of paying this tax to equal the cost of adding gray water tanks to my boat to meet the Blue Card scheme in Turkey. I'm sorry for the cruisers who are not going to Greece do to this tax because your missing quite a sight and experience. I'm personally happy for myself as hopefully I'll have many more quay's and secluded harbors available this summer.

Lastly, it's hard to believe you guys can communicate with Steve. What a work of art. After this post I have to find out if this forum has an ignore option because it's ruining multiple good and informative threads.

 

[nickf]

Thank you to Duncan for giving a measured response in your post.

"You can argue the toss about why the Greek government needs to up the tax take but the fact remains that it does need to do so. Blame anyone you like, the fact remains that it has been decided by the government that this is how they're going to impose the tax and that leaves boat owners with a decision; stay in Greece or leave. Up to you."


I suspect most reasonable people will agree with you. Unfortunately replies to some threads attract those with extreme/eccentric views. The silent majority, I suspect keep quiet. An argument often used is "if you don't want to hear it then don't log in" - if this advice is to be followed I believe it leads to a forum dominated by those who have arguments with weak rational and unfortunately even sometimes views based on prejudice.

 

[Tranona]

I don't think you read what I wrote , we are all suppose to carry the original bill of sale to show VAT has been paid and who is the owner of the yacht , this has nothing to do with the SSR most of us know the SSR don't mean a thing , other then the keeper of the boat . So going back to what I said when we are approach by the PP and ask for document if they bother to ask for the bill of sale it would prove who the owner is , greek Brit or what every very simple .

Afraid your understanding of the complexities of boat ownership, title and registration seems very limited. The Bill Of Sale is just evidence of change of title - nothing to do with VAT. There is no obligation to carry the document. It does not necessarily show how much was paid for the boat, nor who owns it.

There is no simple way of determining who owns a boat, nor who has title, nor who is responsible for its debts. This will become obvious to you when you read the the Greek law which makes a number of people potentially responsible for paying this tax. A boat is not like a car in the UK where one single person is the designated keeper and responsible for any taxes levied on the car or penalties incurred in the operation of the car.

This lack of clarity has always been a problem for governments seeking to apply taxes to boats, as the Italians found out. In many ways the proposed Greek tax, if it is implemented properly overcomes many of the difficulties others have experienced. Very simple. If you do not have a receipt for the tax on your boat you will be fined (or probably the boat impounded). It is up to the owner/operator/skipper etc to fight amongst themselves who pays.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

There`s only one person on these forums that are persistently out to cause trouble, you may recognise him when you shave

Just look back. You will NEVER find an instance of ME starting anything of the kind but I'm not just going to sit and take s... from people like you.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

The proposed tax is, in my view, a pretty simple way of raising a bit of dosh from boat owners. There are reasonable breaks for commercial and charter owners, it has a simple structure and, from what is known so far about the collection system, cheap to collect. Other proposals to charge for the use of anchorages, increase the collection rate for harbour dues and other such schemes all suffer from the problem that they will probably cost a fair proportion of the tax take to actually collect and also miss the point that these charges are already in place and are failing to raise enough money.

You can argue the toss about why the Greek government needs to up the tax take but the fact remains that it does need to do so. Blame anyone you like, the fact remains that it has been decided by the government that this is how they're going to impose the tax and that leaves boat owners with a decision; stay in Greece or leave. Up to you.

As far as WE are concerned then this is a perfectly acceptable form of "Taxation without representation"? I just simply can't understand your position of being perfectly willing to be robbed by a foreign government for having the audacity to visit their country, keep a major personal asset there and spend a great deal of money there already in doing so. Now you want to open your pockets and just say "Please take what you want"! Poor little Greece, you are in SO much need! Here, PLEASE have what I have, please, take big handfulls of it, you needn't ask all your wealthy countrymen for another penny. We want to give you all of ours! AH! I SEE; your stated location "Back in Greece". Another one who has perhaps "Gone native" and will hear nothing said against the place!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Afraid your understanding of the complexities of boat ownership, title and registration seems very limited. The Bill Of Sale is just evidence of change of title - nothing to do with VAT. There is no obligation to carry the document. It does not necessarily show how much was paid for the boat, nor who owns it.

There is no simple way of determining who owns a boat, nor who has title, nor who is responsible for its debts. This will become obvious to you when you read the the Greek law which makes a number of people potentially responsible for paying this tax. A boat is not like a car in the UK where one single person is the designated keeper and responsible for any taxes levied on the car or penalties incurred in the operation of the car.

This lack of clarity has always been a problem for governments seeking to apply taxes to boats, as the Italians found out. In many ways the proposed Greek tax, if it is implemented properly overcomes many of the difficulties others have experienced. Very simple. If you do not have a receipt for the tax on your boat you will be fined (or probably the boat impounded). It is up to the owner/operator/skipper etc to fight amongst themselves who pays.

Title and ownership in the context of a private asset like a boat are the same thing. Just which two or more people do you think have an interest in MY boat? Apart from money grabbing, why should any tax be imposed on a private asset of foreigners, anyway? It is just immoral.

Will they be imposing taxes on valuable items of jewellery and watches next? If my wife had such an item as a £100,000 gold and diamond necklace were to enter Greece with it and keep it in an Athens safety deposit box for a few years, would it be acceptable in your view, for the Greeks to impose a tax upon it?

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Thank you to Duncan for giving a measured response in your post.

"You can argue the toss about why the Greek government needs to up the tax take but the fact remains that it does need to do so. Blame anyone you like, the fact remains that it has been decided by the government that this is how they're going to impose the tax and that leaves boat owners with a decision; stay in Greece or leave. Up to you."


I suspect most reasonable people will agree with you. Unfortunately replies to some threads attract those with extreme/eccentric views. The silent majority, I suspect keep quiet. An argument often used is "if you don't want to hear it then don't log in" - if this advice is to be followed I believe it leads to a forum dominated by those who have arguments with weak rational and unfortunately even sometimes views based on prejudice.

WE have no responsibility whatsoever to assist Greece in getting itself out of it's present financial dificulties. They are of their own making and robbing us blind is a totally immoral way of attempting to get out of their problems. They are now a grown up country in the big world and must accept the consequences of their previous actions and NOT expect to be treated with softness and kindly sentiment like you appear to want to. They are NOT an emerging third world nation. They need to take tax from THEIR OWN PEOPLE by devising efficient methods of targeting the avoiders there and not by dishonestly taking from others.

YOU be a philanthropist if you wish but I will keep MY money for ME, thank you!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Think on this.

Stored ashore out of use means exactly that. Out of Use.

If an owner steps aboard his boat to make a cup of coffee; shelter from the rain; do some maintenance then that boat is in use and becomes liable by definition for the tax.

I recall a similar definition of "out of use" in another EU country and an owner was not allowed anywhere near his boat. I think it was either France or Spain.

Just consider this scenario.

You pay this "Tax" in January and off you go to spend your personal maintenance income on food, clothing entertaining etc in various parts of Greece. Then, third week in June, an illness befalls one of you and you must return your boat to it's base mooring where you decide to lift it from the water and lay it up so that you can return to the UK for treatment.

Now, knowing Greece and it's talent for efficient bureaucracy and efficient infra-structure as you obviously do, what chance do you think you stand of getting back the "unused portion" of your tax?

Of course, the moon IS sometimes blue in Greece, isn't it!

 

[Tony Cross]

WE have no responsibility whatsoever to assist Greece in getting itself out of it's present financial dificulties. They are of their own making and robbing us blind is a totally immoral way of attempting to get out of their problems. They are now a grown up country in the big world and must accept the consequences of their previous actions and NOT expect to be treated with softness and kindly sentiment like you appear to want to. They are NOT an emerging third world nation. They need to take tax from THEIR OWN PEOPLE by devising efficient methods of targeting the avoiders there and not by dishonestly taking from others.

YOU be a philanthropist if you wish but I will keep MY money for ME, thank you!

When I go into a shop I look around at the prices, the shopkeeper is of course free to charge whatever he likes for his goods and his prices are the same for residents of the country he's in and for all foreigners who enter his shop. I have a choice; I can shop there and pay his prices or I can leave and go somewhere else.

Greece is like that shop. They have decided to increase their yachting prices for all customers, so now you have the same choice. You can stay in Greece and pay or you can leave.

And remember that as a non-Greek tax resident you have that choice. The Greeks (assuming they wish to keep their boats in Greece) do not have that choice. So instead of going on and on complaining about the shop increasing it's prices and sniping at those that want to continue to shop there, exercise your right to choose and just leave.

 

[Glyka]

1. I will never feed the troll again.
2. I will never feed the troll again.
3. I will never feed the troll again.
...............................
...............................
...............................
...............................
...............................
98. I will never feed the troll again.
99. I will never feed the troll again.
100. I will never feed the troll again.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Afraid your understanding of the complexities of boat ownership, title and registration seems very limited. The Bill Of Sale is just evidence of change of title - nothing to do with VAT. There is no obligation to carry the document. It does not necessarily show how much was paid for the boat, nor who owns it."end of Quote

Sorry Tranona but it seen that it you who don't understand the complexities of boat ownership .
Mine NOT YOURS , BILL OF SALE attached to my original invoice ( which is also a BILL of SALE " shows I am the legal owner on my yacht it also shows I have paid VAT on it and to what company ie Dufour it also shows how I paid for it and in any british court of law , not greek , and I am not a lawyer, I can prove 100% that I am the owner of that yacht , your BILL of sale might say some thing else , I not seen it and you have not seen mine so please don't comment on mine bill of sale .

Unless your vat was paid in Germany or some other country where a certificate of vat paid is supply by the VAT office n the only way I know that VAT can be proved is by the Original bill of sales and invoice ,


Quote ...There is no simple way of determining who owns a boat, nor who has title, nor who is responsible for its debts. This will become obvious to you when you read the the Greek law which makes a number of people potentially responsible for paying this tax. A boat is not like a car in the UK where one single person is the designated keeper and responsible for any taxes levied on the car or penalties incurred in the operation of the car....end of quote

There nothing to determining ownership of any thing in this world including property, if one what's to find a way off not showing he is not the legal owner and has the money and means of doing so he or she will .

With regards to. Greek law , I am not Greek but what I am is a visitor and tourist in Greece and if Greece wish to levy tax for tourist then it should be a fair tax and for all tourists, just like Holland does , boat are means of transport , or am I wrong again , so while not tax very EU car that drives into Greece a yearly tax ? I think most of us know the answer to that . It not legal .

It is clearly stated that everyone when sailing aboard should carry prove of ownership to be shown if asked for by authorities of another country , if this come in the form of a bill so sale or some other form , part one , is another matter , if the Greek authorities can't be bothered to ask to see this document it isn't mine or anyone else problem.
Greece is entitled it levy a tax if it like but let it be a fair tax for everyone .
Why should boats over 12 mts pay more then boats under 12 mts ?
Why should boat over 12 mts be able to pay monthly when boats under 12 mts have to pay yearly ?
Why should some one who has a 13 mts yacht and use it for two months , pay less then a guy who as a 11 mts yacht and use it the same time ?
The questions goes on this is why in my view this tax is in fair for every boat sailing in Greece .
You have a right to disagree with me the same as I have , but. Please done come on here and tell me what my BILL OF SALE MEANS OF SAYS .
Just for the records mine BILL OF SALE isn't the one you may have from the RYA .

 

[duncan99210]

As far as WE are concerned then this is a perfectly acceptable form of "Taxation without representation"? I just simply can't understand your position of being perfectly willing to be robbed by a foreign government for having the audacity to visit their country, keep a major personal asset there and spend a great deal of money there already in doing so. Now you want to open your pockets and just say "Please take what you want"! Poor little Greece, you are in SO much need! Here, PLEASE have what I have, please, take big handfulls of it, you needn't ask all your wealthy countrymen for another penny. We want to give you all of ours! AH! I SEE; your stated location "Back in Greece". Another one who has perhaps "Gone native" and will hear nothing said against the place!

You are not a Greek citizen and therefore not entitled to representation. You have the choice to keep your boat in Greece and pay the tax or leave. I completely fail to understand what it is you're whining about. If you don't like it, leave. Please just stop clogging up the forum with your self indulgent twaddle.

 

[1bobt]

Just look back. You will NEVER find an instance of ME starting anything of the kind but I'm not just going to sit and take s... from people like you.

Its obvious from your ranting, both here and the lounge that you need help,have you contacted your Doctor regarding counselling?

 

[duncan99210]

Its obvious from your ranting, both here and the lounge that you need help,have you contacted your Doctor regarding counselling?

No point. The doctor will be in the wrong as well.....

 

[Caladh]

You are not a Greek citizen and therefore not entitled to representation. You have the choice to keep your boat in Greece and pay the tax or leave. I completely fail to understand what it is you're whining about. If you don't like it, leave. Please just stop clogging up the forum with your self indulgent twaddle.

+1

 

[Appleyard]

Its obvious from your ranting, both here and the lounge that you need help,have you contacted your Doctor regarding counselling?

That should be no problem.. As he is constantly telling us,both his sons are doctors.

 

[Chris_Robb]

1. I will never feed the troll again.
2. I will never feed the troll again.
3. I will never feed the troll again.
...............................
...............................
...............................
...............................
...............................
98. I will never feed the troll again.
99. I will never feed the troll again.
100. I will never feed the troll again.

Your cheating - write it out properly

 

[Tony Cross]

Your cheating - write it out properly

it out properly