New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[Steve C Cronin]

Steve, Its not what you say ,its the way that you say it,
I agree that the CA should not be involved with negotiating with this Greek minister other than to say ,We will be recommending that non Greek flagged CA members boats should leave Greek waters....If people don`t want to leave, so what, let them stay its a free world. I find Jimb a pleasant and affable man and find your comments to /about him rude.
. I don`t think he would be first choice in carrying out a business contract for me, or me him, I would have thought.
If the Greek government, collected taxes from their citizens rich and poor efficently there would be no need to collect it from the sailors of the world in Greek waters. Other than a the PP collecting harbour dues.

I just use the english language as she is writ and nobody should ever take what I say as having anything other that it's litteral meaning.What are YOU trying to make of my simple question to a fellow member of a large organisation. I COULD ask you to keep your nose out.

YES, I will!

 

[jimbaerselman]

In the email I had back from the ministry - they did refer to a package of measures aimed at making yachting less bureaucratic. I wonder what they really mean?

That's what the CA negotiations are about. They are referring to the items on our letter: http://www.cruising.org.uk/system/files/Greek%20Tax%20email%20to%20Ministry.docx , particularly item 6, plus further messages sent by the CA through the British embassy in Athens, including questions about taxing transit through the Corinth canal.

 

[Chris_Robb]

That's what the CA negotiations are about. They are referring to the items on our letter: http://www.cruising.org.uk/system/files/Greek Tax email to Ministry.docx, particularly item 6, plus further messages sent by the CA through the British embassy in Athens, including questions about taxing transit through the Corinth canal.

Jim - I have asked for clarification of the unanswered questions - reworded to make them clearer. I know you said that you had it confirmed that out of the water stopped the tax - but I really don't believe that they would allow this to happen! I also worry that there are probably 2 different streams of work being done by the shipping ministry in order to get this sorted out as quickly as possible - so we will probably have 2 sets of rules at the end - both completely different!!!

Thanks for your continued work on this. I hope my independent efforts don't hinder yours.

 

[1bobt]

I just use the english language as she is writ and nobody should ever take what I say as having anything other that it's litteral meaning.What are YOU trying to make of my simple question to a fellow member of a large organisation. I COULD ask you to keep your nose out.



YES, I will!

Then keep your personal attacks on other member of this forum private .Then others like me would not put our noses in and comment on your ignorant, belligerent ways.

 

[Appleyard]

Then keep your personal attacks on other member of this forum private .Then others like me would not put our noses in and comment on your ignorant, belligerent ways.

+ at least 1

 

[jimbaerselman]

Originally Posted by jimbaerselman

According to the law as written, you will have to pay as above, depending whether you are 12m or under, or over 12m (when you'd pay for a month).

We are negotiating for a period of grace so that those who wish to leave Greek waters immediately after launch will not have to pay. We don't know whether this will succeed.

JimB for the CA

Just for clarification in my mind but does "JimB for the CA" indicate that you now have the authority of CA Council to express the views of the membership as a whole on this matter?

If you read the post properly, you'd realise I was stating facts established by the CA, rather than the views of the membership.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

If you read the post properly, you'd realise I was stating facts established by the CA, rather than the views of the membership.

But you are signing yourself "JimB for the CA" I will therefore repeat my question

"Do you have the authorisation of the Cruising Association Council to sign yourself as "JimB for the CA"?

Simple enough question, I would have thought?

 

[jimbaerselman]

Thanks for your continued work on this. I hope my independent efforts don't hinder yours.

Not at all. We asked for individuals to put their cases in order to add to the evidence. That approach is working well. The reply you received is consistent with the facts we've established.

I'll repeat the point about being out of the water - or "out of use" as the Greeks put it. It has been confirmed to us that boats "out of use" are not required to have a valid receipt for this tax.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Then keep your personal attacks on other member of this forum private .Then others like me would not put our noses in and comment on your ignorant, belligerent ways.

Asking a simple question cannot be construed as a "Personal Attack" in any sense, unless you (and your little squirt sidekick) are just out to cause trouble. I want to know if Mr Baerselman's writings are official Cruising Association policy which by the way he signs them, any reasonable person would believe they are. If this is NOT the case, then I believe that he should discontinue the use of this signature. Goodness knows, he's thought fit to attempt to pull ME up on enough points in the past.

 

[sailaboutvic]

You surely cannot be naive enough to believe that? 75% of the world's shipping sails under flags of convenience specifically designed to hide their ownership.

I may be a lot of things but naive isn't one ,
people keep spouting out that the reason for this tax is because Greeks have there yacht under a flag of on convenience and are not paying there taxes , I would suggest the reason is because we are a easy way to get money for the Greek government .
putting that a side , we not talking about mult millions airs , because them type of people no matter if there are Greek , British or what ever will always find way of not paying taxes to the full , but as all know there are hundreds if not thousand of yacht reg under SSR and other country flag because it is easy, but not so easy to have fake passport , back to my point , all the Greek PP have to do is ask for document to show owner ship (YES ower-ship ie a bill of sale like we all carry and have to carry with us to show we have paid VAT ) and if the owner happen to be Greek the tax apply . What so hard , YES a few will still get away with it , a few will alway get away with things , but it don't mean the rest of us have to pay a tax in a country that we have nothing to do with just so we can travel in that country , Especially an EU country who are happy to be funded by the EU , ( money from yours , mine and every one else ) and then only apply laws and rules that suite them .

 

[REDRUM]

Sybaris
I think collectively Yachtsmen do a lot more paperwork and ARE bothered about it . It is the authorities who cant be bothered
except to harass if they FEEL like it... Greece being the prime example .

 

[REDRUM]

ie a 5 hour day... does that include lunch

 

[Chris_Robb]

Asking a simple question cannot be construed as a "Personal Attack" in any sense, unless you (and your little squirt sidekick) are just out to cause trouble. I want to know if Mr Baerselman's writings are official Cruising Association policy which by the way he signs them, any reasonable person would believe they are. If this is NOT the case, then I believe that he should discontinue the use of this signature. Goodness knows, he's thought fit to attempt to pull ME up on enough points in the past.

(and your little squirt sidekick) I think that you are now going beyond the bounds of reasonable tough talk, so please Steve would you stop it.

 

[REDRUM]

Great , will forward these to fellow sailors ...

 

[BrianH]

You surely cannot be naive enough to believe that? 75% of the world's shipping sails under flags of convenience specifically designed to hide their ownership.

Surely the Italians are a case in point - by being pragmatic about a similar situation.

First they proposed a blanket tax on all yachts in Italian waters. Then they recognised the damage that would do to the marine industry and amended the proposal, which eventually passed into law, of taxing any boat over 10m owned by an Italian national. After a year they amended the law to apply only to yachts greater than 14m owned by an Italian national - wherever resident. They must have had their reasons after applying the regulations for a period and then modifying in the light of experience.

No doubt ownership can be hidden and some Italians are escaping the tax, but I wouldn't like to be an Italian on my yacht, wherever it may be registered or whomever the documentation said was the owner, when hailed by a Guardia di Finanza patrol boat and told they would be boarding for a control.

Or more typically, as happens in my marina, visited by a posse of those same hard-case characters who regularly arrive in their grey-painted RIBs and patrol the piers making spot checks. Any Italian on board a non-taxed vessel is likely to undergo a very thorough and uncomfortable investigation into their affairs.

 

[nimbusgb]

I may be a lot of things but naive isn't one ,
people keep spouting out that the reason for this tax is because Greeks have there yacht under a flag of on convenience and are not paying there taxes , I would suggest the reason is because we are a easy way to get money for the Greek government .
putting that a side , we not talking about mult millions airs , because them type of people no matter if there are Greek , British or what ever will always find way of not paying taxes to the full , but as all know there are hundreds if not thousand of yacht reg under SSR and other country flag because it is easy, but not so easy to have fake passport , back to my point , all the Greek PP have to do is ask for document to show owner ship (YES ower-ship ie a bill of sale like we all carry and have to carry with us to show we have paid VAT ) and if the owner happen to be Greek the tax apply . What so hard , YES a few will still get away with it , a few will alway get away with things , but it don't mean the rest of us have to pay a tax in a country that we have nothing to do with just so we can travel in that country , Especially an EU country who are happy to be funded by the EU , ( money from yours , mine and every one else ) and then only apply laws and rules that suite them .

Proving 'ownership' is far from simple. Especially in a Greek Port Police office in the middle of tourist season. There are so many ways to obfuscate ownership if one is a determined tax evader. If nothing else the SSR document is a simple laminated piece of paper. No way to check its validity!

Such is the way of the world. You don't stay rich by spending money, you stay rich by employing tactics to avoid paying money you can avoid paying. Often it's as much part of the game as making the stuff in the first place.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Great , will forward these to fellow sailors ...

Hi Redrum - welcome to the forum.

When replying to a post it is often worth clicking on "reply with quote" - that will show us what you will forward to fellow sailors! ie it will make the thread of a conversation much easier to understand.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

(and your little squirt sidekick) I think that you are now going beyond the bounds of reasonable tough talk, so please Steve would you stop it.

Squirt and I have history.

 

[westernman]

Proving 'ownership' is far from simple. Especially in a Greek Port Police office in the middle of tourist season. There are so many ways to obfuscate ownership if one is a determined tax evader. If nothing else the SSR document is a simple laminated piece of paper. No way to check its validity!

Such is the way of the world. You don't stay rich by spending money, you stay rich by employing tactics to avoid paying money you can avoid paying. Often it's as much part of the game as making the stuff in the first place.

You might be interested in reading this:-
http://www.boatinternational.com/bu...rship-through-off-shore-corporate-structures/

Should a yacht owner, irrespective of nationality, create a corporate structure which is domiciled in a country of a different nationality to hold the yacht? The answer, almost always, is yes. Most of the principles set forth here work irrespective of the flag or beneficial owners’ nationality.

 

[1bobt]

Asking a simple question cannot be construed as a "Personal Attack" in any sense, unless you (and your little squirt sidekick) are just out to cause trouble. I want to know if Mr Baerselman's writings are official Cruising Association policy which by the way he signs them, any reasonable person would believe they are. If this is NOT the case, then I believe that he should discontinue the use of this signature. Goodness knows, he's thought fit to attempt to pull ME up on enough points in the past.

There`s only one person on these forums that are persistently out to cause trouble, you may recognise him when you shave