New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[jimbaerselman]

I understood that they (the Greeks) had clarified the basis of time charging. ie out of the water - clock stops From your words above it still seems no more than supposition based around the old rules of "putting out of use".

It has been directly confirmed to us by the ministry that boats, while ashore, will not have to be tax paid.

And, for the sake of clarity, all payments are pre-payments, either on launch, or on first arrival, for fixed periods of time. But they are not re-fundable, even if you leave Greek waters or haul out. So no clocks stop. The pre-payment runs out when it says it will, whatever you do with the boat.

 

[Chris_Robb]

It has been directly confirmed to us by the ministry that boats, while ashore, will not have to be tax paid.

And, for the sake of clarity, all payments are pre-payments, either on launch, or on first arrival, for fixed periods of time. But they are not re-fundable, even if you leave Greek waters or haul out. So no clocks stop. The pre-payment runs out when it says it will, whatever you do with the boat.

Jim - thanks for that clarification.

 

[BurnitBlue]

It has been directly confirmed to us by the ministry that boats, while ashore, will not have to be tax paid.

And, for the sake of clarity, all payments are pre-payments, either on launch, or on first arrival, for fixed periods of time. But they are not re-fundable, even if you leave Greek waters or haul out. So no clocks stop. The pre-payment runs out when it says it will, whatever you do with the boat.

This is exactly what I surmised at day one. In other words the day of launch or arrival the tax for the whole year must be paid starting from Jan 1st and no pro rata rate offered.

This clarification will also dismiss the myth that over 12 meter boats will only pay for the month they use the boat.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

It has been directly confirmed to us by the ministry that boats, while ashore, will not have to be tax paid.

And, for the sake of clarity, all payments are pre-payments, either on launch, or on first arrival, for fixed periods of time. But they are not re-fundable, even if you leave Greek waters or haul out. So no clocks stop. The pre-payment runs out when it says it will, whatever you do with the boat.

Great! So what you are saying is that if I postpone my launch until September 15th then I will be required to pay €1260 for the rest of the year and again on 1st January 2015. If that IS the case then the title "Money Grabbing B a s t a r d s!" is not entirely unreasonable is it?

 

[Peio64]

This is exactly what I surmised at day one. In other words the day of launch or arrival the tax for the whole year must be paid starting from Jan 1st and no pro rata rate offered.

This clarification will also dismiss the myth that over 12 meter boats will only pay for the month they use the boat.

This is also my feeling since the very begining of this story. Further, the Greek ministry seems to have difficulties in implementing the law in its simplest way. I can not imagine them introducing right now a complication such as the monthly pre-payment (except maybe for Greek residents who have a Greek bank account).

[For Jim B. : sorry if I do not understand well some of your understatments but I am French and my practice of English has some limitations Did you clarify what are exactly these "fixed periods of time" ? This is a crucial point for those who have already their >12m boat in the hard in Greece (I am one of these guys).]

Peio

 

[truscott]

Great! So what you are saying is that if I postpone my launch until September 15th then I will be required to pay €1260 for the rest of the year and again on 1st January 2015. If that IS the case then the title "Money Grabbing B a s t a r d s!" is not entirely unreasonable is it?

I read it , given what Jim has said previously and what has been published to date..., that you would pay for 3 months of Cruising tax for the year 2014, given that you are over 12 Meters you are allowed to pay monthly, and then on January 1st 2015, you will be due to pay an additional Cruising Tax for whatever period you intend to have the boat in the water again with the option of paying monthly or annually (I'm not sure how the discount thing works though).

At 12.2 Meters we are looking at similar sums and are choosing to stay based in Turkey this year whilst we watch and see how it all shakes out. We will be cruising Greece as planned, but only for a couple of months, so will unhappily stump up the extra EUR 240 if asked, but won't be grumbling that much as ultimately we like cruising there.

PT

 

[Bertramdriver]

Well Steve
Clearly the answer to your angst is to buy a bigger boat and then you can pay monthly. Or alternatively nail a few bits of wood on fore and aft and update your SSR chatty.

 

[miyagimoon]

It has been directly confirmed to us by the ministry that boats, while ashore, will not have to be tax paid.

And, for the sake of clarity, all payments are pre-payments, either on launch, or on first arrival, for fixed periods of time. But they are not re-fundable, even if you leave Greek waters or haul out. So no clocks stop. The pre-payment runs out when it says it will, whatever you do with the boat.

We are at present on land. Due to launch late April/ Beginning May. We then intend to sail out of Greece. Where do we stand in regards to payment. Are we exempt as we will be departing Greek waters as soon as we are launched or do we have to pay as are already in and will be sailing in their waters?

 

[sailaboutvic]

We are at present on land. Due to launch late April/ Beginning May. We then intend to sail out of Greece. Where do we stand in regards to payment. Are we exempt as we will be departing Greek waters as soon as we are launched or do we have to pay as are already in and will be sailing in their waters?

If I was you I would get the yacht in the water ASAP and get out before it all start .

If I can understand any of this stuff which is getting more confusing by the week , it seems to me if you are leaving Greece as long as you don't stop you shouldn't be tax by rights , but after saying that this is Greece after all and they seen to do what ever they like .

I haven't been in Greece for two year but last time we was there we had to get permission to get launched so I would guess it will be at that point they will be looking at you to pay the tax .

 

[jimbaerselman]

This is also my feeling since the very begining of this story. Further, the Greek ministry seems to have difficulties in implementing the law in its simplest way. I can not imagine them introducing right now a complication such as the monthly pre-payment (except maybe for Greek residents who have a Greek bank account).

[For Jim B. : sorry if I do not understand well some of your understatments but I am French and my practice of English has some limitations Did you clarify what are exactly these "fixed periods of time" ? This is a crucial point for those who have already their >12m boat in the hard in Greece (I am one of these guys).]

Peio

Peio, you are right to ask.

"Fixed periods of time" refers to the provisions in the law.

Those of 12m and under have no choice. As things stand, they will always pay the full year, a maximum of €400.

Those over 12m have a choice:

-- Either they pay for a full year, 100 x LOA (maybe with a discount of 30%)
-- Or they pay for a month only at 10 x LOA (and either renew at the end of the month, or leave Greek waters, or "put the boat out of use"

Whether the "months" referred to are calendar months, or periods of 30 days, is under negotiation.

JimB for the CA

 

[sailaboutvic]

At that rate if you only used the yacht for three months in an year it cheaper to have a 13 mt yacht then one under 12 Mts

12mts 3 months 400 euros
13 mts 10x 13 = 130 euros x3 = 390 euros .

Mmmmm

 

[jimbaerselman]

We are at present on land. Due to launch late April/ Beginning May. We then intend to sail out of Greece. Where do we stand in regards to payment. Are we exempt as we will be departing Greek waters as soon as we are launched or do we have to pay as are already in and will be sailing in their waters?

According to the law as written, you will have to pay as above, depending whether you are 12m or under, or over 12m (when you'd pay for a month).

We are negotiating for a period of grace so that those who wish to leave Greek waters immediately after launch will not have to pay. We don't know whether this will succeed.

JimB for the CA

 

[jimbaerselman]

At that rate if you only used the yacht for three months in an year it cheaper to have a 13 mt yacht then one under 12 Mts

12mts 3 months 400 euros
13 mts 10x 13 = 130 euros x3 = 390 euros .

Actually, 12.0m pays full year (no choice) €400
12.1m pays 3 months at €121.10 each (€360.30)

 

[Peio64]

Peio, you are right to ask.

-- Or they pay for a month only at 10 x LOA (and either renew at the end of the month, or leave Greek waters, or "put the boat out of use"

JimB for the CA

Thank you Jim.

But are you absolutely sure about this ? (I mean : did you obtain written confirmation of this possibilty for >12m yachts from the Greek authorities or is this still a free interpretation of the law ?)

If this is confirmed, this possibility allows us to infer that a 15m yacht cruising two months through Greek waters would pay €100 less than a 11.5m yacht for the same period. Amazing !

Peio

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thank you Jim.

But are you absolutely sure about this ? (I mean : did you obtain written confirmation of this possibilty for >12m yachts from the Greek authorities or is this still a free interpretation of the law ?)

If this is confirmed, this possibility allows us to infer that a 15m yacht cruising two months through Greek waters would pay €100 less than a 11.5m yacht for the same period. Amazing !

Peio

This is why in my view the law is very un fair for every one , I wouldn't have a problem paying a tax on harbour fees or marina fees but this yearly tax is unfair .
It a shame people still talk about staying in Greece ,
if people did s they did in turkey and started a mass exit and I think then we would see a different story . But untill then it going to pay pay pay .

 

[jimbaerselman]

But are you absolutely sure about this ? (I mean : did you obtain written confirmation of this possibilty for >12m yachts from the Greek authorities or is this still a free interpretation of the law ?)

It is what the law says, under any translation.

The "free interpretation" has been to suggest that monthly payments are just "stage payments" for >12 boats towards a commitment to pay for a full year.

Consider the effects of "stage payments" on implementing the tax:
--- on arrival or launch, there is no provision for collecting tax for previous months
--- the large number of August one month visitors from Italy and Turkey have little objection to paying €130 or €150, or even €400, but a big percentage would be put off if they were called to pay €130 x 8 (over €1,000) for 8 months back taxes
--- once you have paid for one month, there is nothing to stop you from leaving Greek waters and making no further payments

This tax has been carefully thought through. We are certain that "stage payments" are not intended. Because some non-believers do not believe us, we have agreed to ask for confirmation from the ministry.

JimB

 

[Tony Cross]

This is why in my view the law is very un fair for every one , I wouldn't have a problem paying a tax on harbour fees or marina fees but this yearly tax is unfair .
It a shame people still talk about staying in Greece ,
if people did s they did in turkey and started a mass exit and I think then we would see a different story . But untill then it going to pay pay pay .

I think you have to remember that this is a tax primarily aimed at making the Greek owners of boats pay an appropriate tax for using them. Previously these have been taxed as luxury items and various schemes were used to avoid those taxes. That's why this one is a catch-all with no options to not pay except to leave (which Greeks can't do) or put the boat out of use. If the tax was levied only on ports and marinas the Greeks would likely as not lay their own moorings in every cove and bay and keep their boats there!

 

[BurnitBlue]

Time to start a rumour.

This whole tax based on length overall is proving to be a minefield. Therefore an easier system will eventually emerge to tax on a percentage of Value. This will be taken from the original Bill of Sale. The advantages to the Greek tax office will be immediately apparent. Every Government in the world raises taxes on value whether it is land, houses, cars, pollution avoidance whatever.

No more whining about unfair to be less than 12 meters, no more ashore speculation, and last but not least ... in fact the major attraction is that the percentage can be increased without the hassle of length bands and without further nit-picking discussion in Parliament.

There, am I a born politician or what?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Time to start a rumour.

This whole tax based on length overall is proving to be a minefield. Therefore an easier system will eventually emerge to tax on a percentage of Value. This will be taken from the original Bill of Sale. The advantages to the Greek tax office will be immediately apparent. Every Government in the world raises taxes on value whether it is land, houses, cars, pollution avoidance whatever.

No more whining about unfair to be less than 12 meters, no more ashore speculation, and last but not least ... in fact the major attraction is that the percentage can be increased without the hassle of length bands and without further nit-picking discussion in Parliament.

There, am I a born politician or what?

Disagree a fair tax would be to tax Greek and leave all other EU boats out of the mess , why should another EU boat pay tax for sailing around another country , To charge a tax for useing harbour or staying in marina is another thing , lets take holland , if you use an hotel room or a caravan park or a marina no matter if your Dutch or from another EU country you pay a tourist tax , it's a small amount and a dayly tax , but it a tax fair in my view , but your not tax for sailing in there waters or useing a river bank , if Greece want bring in a tax , it should be a fair tax
OK let's look at it another way , UK decide to charge the French , Germans , Dutch and everyone else a yearly tax if they sailed over the channel , my god there be an up roar .

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have had my reply from the Minister of Shipping.

SO - here is my email requesting clarification - followed by their reply.


On 27/12/2013 10:27, Chris Robb wrote:

Dear Mr Miltiadis Varvitsiotis .
Good Morning and a Happy New Year.

I have been concerned about this new tax on private boats in Greece and have been in correspondence - see email trail below - with your London Embassy. They have said I should write to you directly.

I am particular concerned with 4 points:
1. The law states "in Greek waters and Docked. It has been assumed by the Cruising Association - who have written to you- that this means when a yacht is ashore, it is not liable for the tax. Is this correct?

2. My Yacht - 12.3 Meters - is in the water at Leros all the year round. I only use it for 9 weeks a year, May June, and September. Will I have to pay an annual tax, or will I pay on the basis of when the yacht is used? ie 3 or 4 months tax. If there is a difference in treatment between in and out of the water, there will be a huge distortion at the boat yards with people leaving if they cannot get a berth ashore for the winter. It would be mad to make such a distinction.

3. It has again been assumed that the tax is a monthly one, but payable in advance and annually in advance for a discount. Is this correct, or is it an Annual Tax with no monthly allowance?

4. Is the tax charged on parts of meters, ie 12.3 meters will be 12.3 x €100 = €1,230?

If the answer to 2 above is that I must pay 12 months, I would like to obtain an indemnity for the Greek Government that I will not have to pay a penalty fee for none payment when I arrive in May to sail. I would also insist that I am able to take advantage of an annual payment discount, but as I have no means of paying until I am in Greece in May that will be impossible unless your electronic payment facility will allow EU Nationals to use this system without a Greek tax number.

I would like to point out that I and many of my friends are extremely unhappy with this tax, and I will make my decisions on whether I stay or not on the reasonableness of the implementation. If the implementation is anything like the way Port Police charge harbour dues - a chaotic and dismal system - where I pay anything from €7 per night to €26 for a rough concrete quay, I will leave. That will be a shame as I spend some €10,000 per annum in Greece each year.

I look forward to your considered reply.

And here is the reply: Bold is my addition.

Dear Mr. Robb,
Thank you very much for your e-mails dated December 27th, 2013 and January 6th, 2014 addressed to the Minister of Maritime Affairs and the Aegean.

The Ministry of Finance, which is the authority responsible for the application of this levy, will shortly issue detailed instructions on the application, methods of payment and timings. Obviously, for the first year of application yacht owners and users will be given a reasonable time frame to react and pay the respective dues. No penalties will be charged, prior to the settlement of all issues mentioned above.

You do have the possibility to pay your levy on a monthly basis or make an annual payment (for the whole year) with a 30% discount. The levy is charged on parts of meters, as stated in paragraph 4 of your e-mail.

An electronic payment facility will be available for EU Nationals without need of a Greek Tax Number.

We appreciate a lot your interest and for choosing our country to use your boat all these years. As you are most probably aware we are undergoing a major restructuring and reform effort and cannot afford to spare any friends and funs of our country.

Please rest assured that when the details of the levy application will be officially published and explained, you will also accept it is a reasonable cost for boat owners and will, in no way, be the cause to leave the country.

With this opportunity, we would also like to inform you that the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and the Aegean is preparing a new legal framework which will make yachting in Greece less bureaucratic and consequently much more attractive.

If we could be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Yours sincerely,
Donta Ioanna
On behalf of the Minister of Maritime Affairs and the Aegean
Miltiadis Varvitsiotis

So what have they answered from my email?
1. Hauling out - does that mean the tax stops? NOT ANSWERED
2 and 3. Is it a monthly tax? - Their answer is that I am able to pay on a monthly basis - This does not clarify if it is a pay monthly for an annual tax paid monthly.
4. Charged on Parts of a meter - They say categorically that it is. One down....


So a further email will be sent to clarify the 1 and 2/3 above.



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