New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

[sailaboutvic]

This is such a myth. If you are prepared to go slow and do not have tight timetable, it is perfectly possible to sail in Greece.

Lighting up guys , it was a joke .
But if you what to make a point of it , that's not sailing you did it drifting , we sailed 3200 miles last year and used just under a tank of fuel .
Can you do that in the Ionian ?

 

[Glyka]

Lighting up guys , it was a joke .
But if you what to make a point of it , that's not sailing you did it drifting , we sailed 3200 miles last year and used just under a tank of fuel .
Can you do that in the Ionian ?

Of course. And again with just under a tanker

 

[sailaboutvic]

Of course. And again with just under a tanker

Forgot to say our tank is 10000 lts , yes I am joking

 

[NornaBiron]

Lighting up guys , it was a joke .
But if you what to make a point of it , that's not sailing you did it drifting , we sailed 3200 miles last year and used just under a tank of fuel .
Can you do that in the Ionian ?

Nope definitely sailing. In the Ionian and Aegean. We're quite happy to sail at 2 knots as long as we're going in the right direction, if we were drifting the chances are that we wouldn't be.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Greek winds . . . another thread really . . .

There are two small cruising areas in Greece where winds are 50% very light in the mornings, with a sailing breeze in the afternoons. One is the Inland Ionian (the area inside Levkada and Keffalinia), and the other is the Saronic Gulf (around Athens). For some reason, in spite of these light winds, these are the most crowded and popular cruising areas in Greece.

They are popular because the other 90% of Greek cruising areas have superb sailing winds.

Why not sail there, rather than moaning about light winds?

 

[Bertramdriver]

Hi Jim Has the CA got any progress to report? It's all gone suspiciously quiet.

 

[affinite]

Sorry to bump this thread just when we all thought it had fizzled out.
I know we are all waiting for the final, final version of this tax but Im trying to plan which yard/marina to keep my boat in from summer onwards and need to make a decision soon ...
(Id prefer to keep her in the water but I have an option to move to a yard where "dry berthing" is the norm)

My boat is 13.1m (on the SSR).
We sail in Greece for approx 8 weeks a year in 3 trips (Easter, May and August)
Can someone (Jim ?) give me the latest understanding wrt boats over 13m and choosing to pay monthly.

If I were to keep her on the hard and have her lifted in and out each time would I only pay for the months in the water ie 3 x €130 (assume we sail in April, May and August)
Thanks and sorry again for resurecting the dead

OK I retract my apology - Bertram bumped first

 

[Cardo]

Hi Jim Has the CA got any progress to report? It's all gone suspiciously quiet.

There was an update on the CA page yesterday...
http://www.cruising.org.uk/node/22634

No real surprise!

 

[Cardo]

Sorry to bump this thread just when we all thought it had fizzled out.
I know we are all waiting for the final, final version of this tax but Im trying to plan which yard/marina to keep my boat in from summer onwards and need to make a decision soon ...
(Id prefer to keep her in the water but I have an option to move to a yard where "dry berthing" is the norm)

My boat is 13.1m (on the SSR).
We sail in Greece for approx 8 weeks a year in 3 trips (Easter, May and August)
Can someone (Jim ?) give me the latest understanding wrt boats over 13m and choosing to pay monthly.

If I were to keep her on the hard and have her lifted in and out each time would I only pay for the months in the water ie 3 x €130 (assume we sail in April, May and August)
Thanks and sorry again for resurecting the dead

OK I retract my apology - Bertram bumped first

From the latest CA update, it looks like you're in luck. Immobile boats (ie. out of water) are not subject to the tax.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

According to Wikipedia, the Greek coastline is 15,147 km, which is 0.96% of the world total (1,634,701 km).

Any "coastline length" is meaningless without an indication of the scale at which it was measured; all coastlines are theoretically infinitely long, and the measured length goes up as the scale of measurement goes up (i.e. becomes more detailed).

 

[jimbaerselman]

Hi Jim Has the CA got any progress to report? It's all gone suspiciously quiet.

It will go suspiciously quiet for periods of about 2 weeks at a time . . .

CA makes proposals on your behalf to the Greek Ministry, receives answers, and asks further questions. That becomes a dialogue between internal Greek Ministries who eventually report back on key points. As soon as we receive (what I think!) is firm information, Beryl, our very efficient media person, puts out press releases to the yotty mags, and I update the CA news page.

The Cruising Association has other Mediterranean specialists tracking Turkish changes (residence permits, visa limitations and the reality of the Blue card situation) also the after effects of Croatia's entry to the EU (application of sojourn taxes and changes in other expenses affecting cruising folk).

Our next big update will be during the Mediterranean Seminar on 9th March at CA house, when we'll be pulling these items together. Details of this event will eventually appear on http://www.cruising.org.uk/public/seminars - and as you'll see on that list, the same things go on for the Baltic, Biscay and other sea areas, together with a more general seminar, "Casting Off"

 

[Tony Cross]

It will go suspiciously quiet for periods of about 2 weeks at a time . . .

CA makes proposals on your behalf to the Greek Ministry, receives answers, and asks further questions. That becomes a dialogue between internal Greek Ministries who eventually report back on key points. As soon as we receive (what I think!) is firm information, Beryl, our very efficient media person, puts out press releases to the yotty mags, and I update the CA news page.

The Cruising Association has other Mediterranean specialists tracking Turkish changes (residence permits, visa limitations and the reality of the Blue card situation) also the after effects of Croatia's entry to the EU (application of sojourn taxes and changes in other expenses affecting cruising folk).

Our next big update will be during the Mediterranean Seminar on 9th March at CA house, when we'll be pulling these items together. Details of this event will eventually appear on http://www.cruising.org.uk/public/seminars - and as you'll see on that list, the same things go on for the Baltic, Biscay and other sea areas, together with a more general seminar, "Casting Off"

And don't forget that all these changes will be reported in the excellent Mediterranean Section quarterly newsletter which will hit member's inboxes in a few days.

 

[silver-fox]

It will go suspiciously quiet for periods of about 2 weeks at a time . . .

CA makes proposals on your behalf to the Greek Ministry, receives answers, and asks further questions. That becomes a dialogue between internal Greek Ministries who eventually report back on key points. As soon as we receive (what I think!) is firm information, Beryl, our very efficient media person, puts out press releases to the yotty mags, and I update the CA news page.

The Cruising Association has other Mediterranean specialists tracking Turkish changes (residence permits, visa limitations and the reality of the Blue card situation) also the after effects of Croatia's entry to the EU (application of sojourn taxes and changes in other expenses affecting cruising folk).

Our next big update will be during the Mediterranean Seminar on 9th March at CA house, when we'll be pulling these items together. Details of this event will eventually appear on http://www.cruising.org.uk/public/seminars - and as you'll see on that list, the same things go on for the Baltic, Biscay and other sea areas, together with a more general seminar, "Casting Off"

Jim
I just wanted to say a big thanks for all this work which you are doing on this on a voluntary basis.

Lets hope that the Greek government finds IT changes as indigestible as our own UK government, we may not see these taxes implemented for a year or two yet!

 

[Chris_Robb]

And don't forget that all these changes will be reported in the excellent Mediterranean Section quarterly newsletter which will hit member's inboxes in a few days.

For those that only sail 3 months of the year, the race is on to find a berth in a yard to haul out for the winter and - for us - the period July August. I suspect they may fill up rather quickly, if you don't book well in advance.

I am surprised that there was a difference between in and out, so well done JimB and the CA for getting this interpretation.

 

[Glyka]

Any "coastline length" is meaningless without an indication of the scale at which it was measured; all coastlines are theoretically infinitely long, and the measured length goes up as the scale of measurement goes up (i.e. becomes more detailed).

That is exactly how it is, but if we are comparing two coastlines measured by the same organization (and thus the same measuring system and specifications) the actual scale does not affect the ratio. That's why I used both figures from the the same source (the CIA world factbook).
(Actually, it's not quite so because there are scales that may favor a line pattern opposite another, but that goes far beyond the scope of the thread).

 

[AntarcticPilot]

That is exactly how it is, but if we are comparing two coastlines measured by the same organization (and thus the same measuring system and specifications) the actual scale does not affect the ratio. That's why I used both figures from the the same source (the CIA world factbook).
(Actually, it's not quite so because there are scales that may favor a line pattern opposite another, but that goes far beyond the scope of the thread).

But the data in the CIA factbook is not uniform, but derived from national sources of varying scale and reliability. However, it's probably good enough for government work

 

[Peio64]

From the latest CA update, it looks like you're in luck. Immobile boats (ie. out of water) are not subject to the tax.

But : "If they are to be launched and used, the tax must be paid." (CA source)

Don't be so optimistic and pay attention to the "they are to be...".

I plan to launch (and use) in May. Will see...

Peio

 

[jimbaerselman]

But : "If they are to be launched and used, the tax must be paid." (CA source)

Don't be so optimistic and pay attention to the "they are to be...".

I plan to launch (and use) in May. Will see...
Peio

I should take more care about how good people are at winkling pessimistic interpretations out of published texts! Peio, I apologise for sloppy writing!

The current concept in Greece is that boats can be "put out of use" by informing the Port Police. This is why one should inform the PP before pull out, and before launch. While ashore, the boat is "out of use", and therefore does not have to be tax paid. We assume, but don't know, that the same concept stays in place.

I believe, but I'm not sure, that there is provision for boats in the water to be "put out of use" by handing their documents to the PP. This is certainly the case for Greek registered boats which are parked on the shore line as scrap. I'm not so sure about boats registered outside Greece, but this is one of our items for discussion. It would be great if boats afloat could be "laid up" = "put out of use" when users go home for their mid-summer breaks.

Meanwhile, let's be clear, boats out of the water do not have to produce proof that tax has been paid.

Once a boat is in the water, proof of tax payment may be asked for.

It will therefore prudent (once the payment system is in place) to pay before launch.

And at present, we don't know any more details than that.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I should take more care about how good people are at winkling pessimistic interpretations out of published texts! Peio, I apologise for sloppy writing!

The current concept in Greece is that boats can be "put out of use" by informing the Port Police. This is why one should inform the PP before pull out, and before launch. While ashore, the boat is "out of use", and therefore does not have to be tax paid. We assume, but don't know, that the same concept stays in place.

I believe, but I'm not sure, that there is provision for boats in the water to be "put out of use" by handing their documents to the PP. This is certainly the case for Greek registered boats which are parked on the shore line as scrap. I'm not so sure about boats registered outside Greece, but this is one of our items for discussion. It would be great if boats afloat could be "laid up" = "put out of use" when users go home for their mid-summer breaks.

Meanwhile, let's be clear, boats out of the water do not have to produce proof that tax has been paid.

Once a boat is in the water, proof of tax payment may be asked for.

It will therefore prudent (once the payment system is in place) to pay before launch.

And at present, we don't know any more details than that.

Jim, I am confused.

I understood that they (the Greeks) had clarified the basis of time charging. ie out of the water - clock stops. From your words above it still seems no more than supposition based around the old rules of "putting out of use".

It this the case?

Handing in Documents: Can you imagine the chaos at PP when 20,000 boats hand in their documents? By documents - what is required - just the Dekpa or your Registration Certificate.

Are we in fact any further forward to CERTAIN knowledge?

Meanwhile, let's be clear, boats out of the water do not have to produce proof that tax has been paid.

Jim, this statement can only be made around the fact that no-one is currently asked for papers (come to Port Police) when on dry land. Who is to say that the PP won't start going round the yards and saying "come to Port Police" perhaps even to an empty boat

 

[Tony Cross]

I should take more care about how good people are at winkling pessimistic interpretations out of published texts! Peio, I apologise for sloppy writing!

The current concept in Greece is that boats can be "put out of use" by informing the Port Police. This is why one should inform the PP before pull out, and before launch. While ashore, the boat is "out of use", and therefore does not have to be tax paid. We assume, but don't know, that the same concept stays in place.

I believe, but I'm not sure, that there is provision for boats in the water to be "put out of use" by handing their documents to the PP. This is certainly the case for Greek registered boats which are parked on the shore line as scrap. I'm not so sure about boats registered outside Greece, but this is one of our items for discussion. It would be great if boats afloat could be "laid up" = "put out of use" when users go home for their mid-summer breaks.

Meanwhile, let's be clear, boats out of the water do not have to produce proof that tax has been paid.

Once a boat is in the water, proof of tax payment may be asked for.

It will therefore prudent (once the payment system is in place) to pay before launch.

And at present, we don't know any more details than that.

The marina that I'm in has already cottoned on to the fact that this may well put extra pressure on their already limited hard standing as more people seek to store their (over 12m) boat out of the water rather than in. I guess the same will be true of all other Greek marinas too, so we might expect extra costs or charges for long term storage on the hard?