Mobos get a Life (or sense)

[Tomsk]

It looks like a basic agreement is being formed here:

i.e. MoBo's WILL cause a certain amount of unavoidable wash. Passing too close to a Raggie will cause disruption in a number of uncomfortable and possibly dangerous ways.

Earlier in this post someone started to discuss the best way that a Mobo - acting responsibly - could present this wash to a Raggie.

Would a member of our Raggie brethren give a difinative guide on how we can best deal with the problem (Banning MoBo's is not an option!!) then we can learn from this and find a peaceful co-existance?

<hr width=100% size=1>Tomsk -

What the hell... it's only money!

 

[KevB]

Re: Genuine question

In most cases where practical I go astern of sailing boats or at very least parellel, I try to avoid going across their bows at right angles , even from afar.
Am I doing it right?

When in open water such as the Solent it is in most peoples interest to keep away from other boats whatever their flavour. Those who choose to pass at close quarters do so to all boats not just sailing boats. They are your "white van men" of the sea.
The one's that make an obvious impression are in motorboats, it's for all to see, the one's in sailing boats are there - we just don't see their ignorance so openly and more often than not effects just an individual.

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[jimi]

Re: Genuine question

Agree completely! I'd rather have your wake up my chuff .. and there's plenty of WVM in saily boats as well!

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[Bejasus]

without doubt the key would be in educating people to make them aware of the problem and discomfort being caused to others. Perhaps IPC could come up with stickers to be distributed via readers to marina offices etc. I am sure many bikers will remember the MCN campaign a few years ago to alert other road users to be more aware of bikes. Whilst not a cure all, it was a fairly inoffensive way of trying to get the message across. Unfortunately, the tw*ts amongst every walk of life, there's very little one can do anything about, except perhaps fit a sternchaser to the bow.
There will always be arguments from both sides about behaviour. I.e. raggies about wash from mobos and mobos about raggies tacking seemingly with complete disregard for others, or the raggies who goosewing halfway up the Hamble etc.
I am sure most 'boaters' of one type or another read one of the many publications, perhaps a consideration campaign could be distributed via this medium.

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[KevB]

An analogy of a planning motorboats handling would be riding a bike. If you go too slow, you wobble all over the place and fall off. Too fast and the slightest movement or imperfection of the surface can have a dramatic effect on your direction. Just right (on the plane) and everything is under control and smooth.


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[jimi]

Another thing:
Some mobos whilst planing fast think they'll do the decent thing and slow down a bit when passing. Probably the worst thing cos max wash is caused at fast diplacement speed just before planing, or just "behind the hump" rather than on the hump .. however suspect that would be double dutch to most of those causing the problems .. as would the proper use of trim tabs ...

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[Solitaire]

" I STRONGLY believe that understanding of effects and consideration for other types of user should be an essential part of the RYA shore and afloat courses. "

I can assure you that they are! I take great pains to emphaise the affects of wash by powerboats on yachts and the appropriate distance to pass. Also when coming down a river - e.g. Hamble or when in Poole Harbour, both areas where I instruct. The thing is of course that you have no control over the situation once the student has moved on to "solo" boating. Certainly at the schools I work with the effects of wash are constantly reminded.

A thought has come to mind with regard to this whole issue - I bet everyone on here breaks the speed limit on the roads at some time or another!! Some, I would suggest, almost constantly!!!!!!!!!! Why should it be any different on the water? I think we are in danger of all ending up in "glass houses".

<hr width=100% size=1>Boating is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.powerboattraininguk.co.uk>Serious Fun</A>

 

[TonyBrooks]

You are exactly right - most mobos (likely to be of the type in qustion) do not have rudders, leading to the problems stated.

Now the question is - why do they not have rudders with the ability to give adequate control at displacement speed. A suplimentary is why is the hull design such that it becomes very difficult to control at low speed.

I am still sure that in most (not all) cases you would get tolerable control at well under 10 knots.

Theer is also the question of how the boat trims at low speed. It might well be that to get better control at low speed one would need pumped water balast tanks - but thats extra cost and complexity. Thus we possibly have someones "cheaper" boating taking place at the expense of another boaters comfort or even safety.

Individual boaters can do little to influance boat design, apart from refusing to buy, however the extra cost in fuel and intial price probably ensures we are stuck with wallowing mobos at low speed. Having said that I really do not have any control problems and would not expect any in even a large wash at low speed - it helps if the boat goes straight through it ;-)

Tony Brooks

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[jimi]

Solitaire, difference is that if you break the speed limit on a busy motorway, your actions have little or no effect on other road users cos a car does'nt cause great big ripples of tarmac to heave up and chuck cars about or knock over the little old lady standing at the bus stop!

<hr width=100% size=1>I've got a wonderful profile.

 

[Observer]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Whilst it is true that a planing hull at 10knts is likley to make more wash than if it was fully on the plane at 20knts, but it would make far less wash if it was runnning at displacement speeds. The fact that some MOBOs feel the need to run at higher speeds whilst entering and leaving congested waters just amazes me.

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From my experience, I think you are correct. Many mobos transiting Portsmouth Harbour entrance seem to do so at the 10 kts speed limit, which is around the speed at which maximum wash is created for a typical 30'-40' ish planing or semi-displacement hull. The Catch 22 is that other mobos who may choose a lower speed to reduce wash can be forced to increase speed (and wash) in order to retain directional control - so the problem feeds on itself. I have often seen smaller boats seriously (possibly dangerously) affected by the combined wash caused by a number of mobos transiting the entrance.

I set my speed in Portsmouth Harbour to just below the engine speed at which the superchargers cut in (which produces a boat speed of about 7-8 kts and light to moderate wash) on the basis that additional engine speed (but not so as to exceed the 10 kts limit) burns significantly more fuel, causing more engine wear and contributing to the wash problem, for very little gain in passage time. Sometimes I have to increase power to cope with the wash or wind/tide turbulence, acknowledging that I am adding to the wash problem, but I can't see a way to avoid that. From reports I've read, I suspect the issue is the same in Chi harbour entrance, where there is the additional problem caused by the bar.

I'm not sure if there is an answer except raising awareness. In Portsmouth, I'd support the harbour patrol launch pulling over the worst wash offenders, in a non-confrontational way, and asking them to think about the wash effects of travelling at different speeds.

In clear(ish) water (including the Solent except perhaps during Cowes week) I don't find it a problem to give adequate clearance to all other craft and take additional action to do so for all sailing vessels in light winds and for smaller craft generally. Sometimes (but rarely if observation and anticipation is adequate), it may be necessary to reduce speed, perhaps drop right off the plane. Mostly it's possible to pick a way through. This may result in a slalom course which requires awareness of possible overtaking traffic. I think this type of action is one which mobo skippers instinctively avoid - they prefer to travel in straight lines and make minimum course changes.

The unfortunate truth is that I have only become fully aware of the wash I make as a result of reading the grumbles on this forum, and from the limited sailing I have done. If I had done neither, I may well be one of the mobo skippers who are rightly execrated in the above posts. I suspect the worst offenders are not the type of people who take sufficient interest in what they're doing to want to do it better, so do not seek self-improvement through training or by seeking exposure to other people's points of view.

I do think it remains a minority problem but perhaps the minority is increasing. Also, the number of mobos is increasing so the number of mobo skippers who make up the minority must be greater.

Sorry for the length of this post. Fair winds to all of you.



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[Peppermint]

Re: Nothing

You can do nothing unless there's room to give us a wide berth or, when you buy your next boat you consider wake in with all the other stuff. It's plain to me that the energy contained in that wake has been paid for so, as fuel prices go up maybe designers will reduce it for us. If you want a case in point. Redjet 4 is the larger of the Redjets but makes very little wake. I doubt if Red Funnel bought it to please sailors.

But spilling the milk is not the real issues, we don't cry over that. Most yotties have had minor injuries because of wake. Some have had more serious in damage done. Sailing yachts are full of angles, points and swinging bits just waiting to bite the unwary. Thats why wake is such an issue in calm weather. Crews relaxing in the sunshine are at a different state of preparedness, and much less padded, than those out in a bit of a breeze.

So you guys just carry on as normal but be aware that while you enjoy yourself it's easy for you to spoil someone elses day and realy hurt someone. It's also dead easy for you to look like you don't give a toss even when you do.


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[Solitaire]

I rest my case!

<hr width=100% size=1>Boating is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.powerboattraininguk.co.uk>Serious Fun</A>

 

[Sybarite]

Re: genuine question

Actually when I'm tootling along I quite enjoy the variation that some waves give. However nobody likes it when it's close. Not only is the movement sharper but you also feel that your privacy is being invaded.

The worst for me was one day when I had just arrived at an otherwise peaceful anchorage and I was on the cabin top furling the mainsail on the boom. Somebody roared past literally within 5 metres causing me to fall down on to the side deck.

John

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[squidge]

Re: Genuine question

2 events last weekend .
1st we were in the lock at ipswich a 30ft ish mobo came in behind me , they were having trouble getting the boat secured and even with the help of bow thrusters managed to make a pigs ear of it. First time in a lock i thought.
I got the lady on the for deck to throw me a line which i secured and returned to her, she thanked me and dissapeared below.
Dispite the protests from the 5 or 6 other boats(raggies & mobos) in the lock the skipper did not turn off his engines and for the time it took to fill the lock we were subjected to his exhaust fumes.
Maybe he could not hear over his engines and double glassing but he must have seen all of the nose holding and arm wafting.

2nd .While on the way into the crouch on the very bottom of the tide i noticed the sun glinting off of an object at 1or2 miles on my starboard side.Through the bins i could see a mobo sitting at the very top of the buxey sands, a good 4 meters above the water. Poor blighters must have run aground just after HW and will not get off untill close to the next HW. Thats not what i call a good day.

IMHO Both of the above could have been avoided by having a little training. Ist in boat handling and the 2nd in basic navigation.
I do not want big brother compulsory training but how else can we stop the ignorance?

We had a relaxing evening and a good nights sleep on a swinging mooring at Pin Mill .Even though a busy river it was thanks to the considerate mobos who caused very little or no wash while going through the moorings. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif





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[[2068]]

It's true that low speed control isn't easy, but it can be done, down to about 5-6knots. Anything slower becomes very hard in a crosswind or crosstide, and flips you into "manouevring" mode rather than "passage" mode.

Optimum steering response is at planing speeds (14knots plus), and getting back onto the plane having fallen off it requires full throttle and is a pain, but shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep planing under inappropriate circumstances.

How about Retractable Rudders ?

dv.

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[Davy_S]

It might help Tom, if you stopped trying to get that boat of yours to get up on the plane in the marina, at least wait till i have finished my drink! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[KevB]

Re: Genuine question

Good points but I think you are wrong to give specific incidents cause I'm sure we could all during the course of a weekend find fault in someone else's boating/eating habits/car driving/grammar/dress sense, etc etc......

What does your two examples prove - nothing other than one person forgot to turn their engine off/was a twat, and another had a faulty GPS/broken engine/heart attack!!!/was a twat/wanted to inspect the bottom of his boat, etc etc........



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[TheBoatman]

Rob
I did say in my post that I seriously concidered it, but I would never do it. When I'm in PB instructor mode I always advise my candidates about the effects of wash and the problems that they can cause. I also said that I was definately a live and let live boater, I hate mobo's verses raggies etc posts, but after you have been passed by 60+ mobo's and less than 5 showed concideration towards you it makes you start to think! This past w/end we have run the Dragon Eastern Championships on the river and these inconciderate b****ds had not only me but all 30 Dragons and our 36' ex trawler fishing committee boat rolling on their beam ends. One even slalomed through the fleet at flat chat with a big smile on his face.
I would be the first to admit that it's not all mobo's and until now I have always supported the "minority" arguement but 60+ with 5 showing concideration doesn't sound like I have my facts right.

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[Guest]

Hog-WASH !!!

The trick is to keep speed down in anchorages / crowded / mooring areas / areas where small boats are probable ..... not to suggest manouevres that are questionable to say the least.

I have on many occasions had my beer et al spilt INSIDE marinas, in restricted anchorage areas etc.

I am also a boater that likes all forms of boating and enjoys speed / sailing / etc. etc. but get annoyed at the antics of some. Note not so long ago I posted about a group of Jetskis who sideswiped my boat while we were handing sails ..... my wife was nearly thrown overboard etc. Coastguard was called and Police tried to catch the sods ..... I am still not aware of outcome ... but I publicly over the VHF offered to prosecute ..... various other calls went in from other boats similarly treated by the JS that day ........


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[KevB]

I'd like to see you come into Portsmouth/Chichester harbour in a big swell at 6 knots without driving erratically all over the place, even in "manouevering" mode. Virtually impossible in anything smaller than 40' - 50'. And if you can do it then hats off to you, your better than me at steering.


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