Buy British campaign

[Assassin]

I am an advocate of buying British, but what is British? in reality, very little; your boat may be built in a British yard by a British company, but where does it all come from?

You specify Volvo engines then straight away it becomes multi-national as their components come from all around the world, the same applies to all other engines. How about everything else, if you delve deeper nothing really is British and this is where the problem lies.

If we look at cars such as Range Rover, the steel comes predominantly from India, the castings for the engines are from a variety of countries including the UK, the engine management system from as many as 60 countries. Interior trims are made on steel frames for seats, frame material from India again, cloth from a variety of countries, and leather usually from Mexico, Brazil, or Italy. The list is endless.

I live in hope for more stuff manufactured in the UK, and supplied to UK manufacturers of all types, but being a realist i know it won't happen in my lifetime.

 

[OAF]

I am an advocate of buying British, but what is British? in reality, very little; your boat may be built in a British yard by a British company, but where does it all come from?
I live in hope for more stuff manufactured in the UK, and supplied to UK manufacturers of all types, but being a realist i know it won't happen in my lifetime.

Agree with your statement Assassin but buying British is still helping to turn the wheels of the British economy, The major manufacturers are still employing people who live in this country who put back in to the economy, the companies are paying all of their local taxes and utility bills etc to this country, I do think it is easy to blame others for the demise of the British manufacturing industry and they do play a big part in it but so do we, we should support home grown products as much as we can, even with all of their flaws and imported parts!

I know that I support Britain, Land rover, Jaguar, Princess, to name a few, this is my country, my home, its where I earn my living, its where I pay my taxes, its where I choose to live and holiday (in the majority) It might sound a bit of a cliché but I am proud to be British, and I like others fly the flag!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes u r right Assasin.

The windows of most of the British builds comes I think from Italy, passarelle Besenzoni or Opacmare. Some builders also switched to hardware like stainless steel from Italian companies.
Furniture. I remember Sunseeker in cheery wood time using an Italian company a few years back, don't know if they still do.

As for China I would not shout so much. If you google into boat building you find loads of **** coming from there, with may be a little good stuff. Not that no one does it wrong, but I am seeing a lot of companies waiting to jump on the Chinese band wagon, and that is saying something.
The problem is that if you wait ten years to get up to standard and there economy is growing at double digits a year, in that time manufacturing will be as expensive as Europe. Is there a boating market developed. That is a big No as there nation is not really interested in it. Yes it is growing, but slowly.
Compare it to Brazil, similar growth to China, a very boating orientated population and u r seeing builders giving it a try. Most important is because there is a good internal market, and also the neibours have interest.

 

[henryf]

I've already acknowledged that many of the components are non British in origin but the fact remains that building motorboats is very labour intensive, far more so than cars. In the case of Princess I know all the cabinet work is produced in house which increases the hour tally per boat. You mention windows, ours are from a company called trend. Are they not based in Norfolk?

All the soft furnishings are made by hand in the UK as far as I'm aware (clearly the fabric it's self may be shipped in) so again we're buying in British labour and craftsmanship once again.

Call it how you want but I still see each British Motorboat which gets produced as a huge parcel of British labour hours and wages. That's before the companies themselves dig in to their pockets and furnish the economy with taxes.

I know this tiny thread is hardly representative of the UK as a whole but it's very telling to see the apathy and doom mongering being spewed out. Maybe as a nation we don't deserve to be called great anymore and I'm misguided in my praise for the industry?

Henry

 

[Nautical]

Good point PY, the issue is the chinese are willing to learn and wiling to throw gazillions at the project and are not worried about making profit in the short term. Under estimate the Chinese at your peril, every industry they have tackled and invested in inevitably they succeed, even if it turns out a war of attritian by just gazumping every PX deal on a new build they will make it happen. I am not particularly happy about it either and neither are many of the US builders in Taiwan which is quite expensive to build in, but still for the very top end of production SD and Displacement the best place to be. Most of the Taiwan yards have been building US and EU product for decades and are almost more western in their attitude of "can do" than we are. Indeed if anyone has more to worry about than we it is the Taiwanese, don't mix the two, Taiwan is a whole different ball park to China, to a Taiwanese builder being lumped with China is a huge insult, just try telling Fleming, ORY, Horizon, Ocean Alexander et al they are built in China, most likely you will end up swimming with the fishes ! ;-)

 

[MapisM]

Compare it to Brazil, similar growth to China, a very boating orientated population and u r seeing builders giving it a try.

LOL, giving it a try is an accurate way to describe their efforts, I guess.
Have you ever seen the e/r of a INaCe, PY?
When I think of it, one word pops to my mind, and it's SCARY.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

When on the website and looked at a picture of a 2009 build Inace hull 569.
Obviously the picture does not say much, do they do look to have build a few yachts though.

But my argument is, here comparing Brazil with China is may be both are still learning this boat building thing. But Brazil on the other hand has a healthy internal and neibouring market while China has not.
That is why I said give it a try. If they where as good as they are in Viareggio, Venice area, or Miami, I am sure everyone would have moved there. And the TRY word would have vanished in my sentence.

But Ferretti and Azimut both have opened facilities there for building at max capacity 100 boats a year. They say this production will in the future supply the two American continents i.e. North and South America. Its interesting how both jumped on the wagon of Brazil, very fast.

 

[halcyon]

But my argument is, here comparing Brazil with China is may be both are still learning this boat building thing. But Brazil on the other hand has a healthy internal and neibouring market while China has not.

That is assuming China want to take a long time to learn.

A few years back British Flyreel in Falmouth made good fishing reels and exported world wide, then China came along and invested and took over the firm. During the holiday containers arrived, loaded the contents of the factory and took it to China. Staff made redundent, China now make fly fishing reels and export world wide.
China invest in Rover, China now make advanced cars that they could not build the before. There most advanced car before was a Mk1 golf that VW sold them

China only need to take-over Sealine, Marine Projects, Sunseeker, or Failine, ship back to China, instant design, and product, sell that while you learn and develope phase 2. They have the money, all the British boatbuilders are only petty cash, come to that is the Oxford group that just bought Sealine a US or China owned US firm ?

Has it already started ? now I'm worried.

Brian

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes it has but so far have decided to stay only as shareholders.
They 80% in Dalla Pieta, Italian builder from Venice, and I think they have also 50% in Inrizzardi Group. But this last was still in negotiation.

The problem is the numbers. Boat builders cannot really become big, unless you make a group and vary your product.
In the boom of 02 till 07 only four companies in boating managed a one billion in sales. Beneteau Group, Azimut Benetti Group, Ferretti Group, and Brunswick. Think how much a diversified product these companies have.

Mixing cars with boats is always not good. Not only on the construction POV but also the economics, especially in current market condition where sales are very fluctuating.


Chinese or not the current boating problem is still over capacity. Is not about British or Italian, US or CHinese but at the moment it is a big buyers market....

My surprise in all this talk about Chinese building capacity is that all Sportfish boats are still build in the US, and so far no US builder building SF has moved to China. Is it a coincidence considering how hard the Sportfishers treat there boats, and how good it has to be built. I don't think so!

 

[Nautical]

Halcyon, now your getting the picture , unfortunately :-(

it has already started in the US and Taiwan , yards being bought up at crazy money just to get the moulds and technology.

 

[Nautical]

PY , I don't think building big and tough is the problem, AKA Nordhavn now built in China.

 

[henryf]

Err..... So because you think at some stage in the future the Chinese are going to start building decent flybridge and sports boats we should all turn our backs on our world beating companies and wait for them to die?

Motorboat building requires constant design and development input. Especially when you're talking about the sort of products made by the companies I've already highlighted. You can't tool up then run off 10,000 units, each boat is hand made and requires individual attention during construction. As has been mentioned already check out the engine room and machinery install on a boat then tell me if you'd want to be the proud owner, good p/x price or not!

Fishing reels are like cutting a piece of string to the right length in comparison to building a motorboat. Car assembly is equally as straight forward because you are repeating simple actions time and time again. There is no free-hand when it comes to assembling a car. Even the badge has a template to butt up against when you stick it on. Motorboats are all about the free-hand actions of men and women.

The bulk of a motorboat means shipping costs are significant, especially when you also need to undercut the better quality British built product. Margins start to look a little skinny. As for the Chinese home Market do buyers really want a Chinese built product or would they rather have the quality and kudos of a British built boat? Witness the number of Mercedes Benz driving around mainland China.

I really can't see where you are going with this Chinese / Brazilian talk. It has nothing to do with acknowledging and where ever possible supporting British companies. If Flemming and Nordhaven are built in Asia then make sure everyone knows. I always assumed they were made in the USA.

With my "Made with pride in Great Britain" stickers we will be able to easily identify the imposters.

Henry

 

[Assassin]

The USA comments are interesting particularly as most Americans proclaim they buy American, yet American industry was one of the first to outsource to China, before that it was Mexico.
It was only last year the USA Mercury company claimed its products were all American, but suddenly Yamaha made public that many Mercury products were merely rebadged Yamaha products which were predominantly made in China. Likewise the Mc Culloch chainsaws, claimed to be an all American product which were made in Mexico, the list is endless.

One factor running through this thread is that the British people are not as guillable as the Americans appear to be.

Boats are one of the key engineering and exports this country relies on, and contrary to one poster, i have no rose tinted spectacles, i merely asked for opinions and debate, and raised a couple of issues to begin the debate. Boats are labour intensive to construct and many countries have much lower labour rates, but we excel in areas of craftsmanship so this was a factor in questioning whether we should protect this important area, and with Government support.

The issue of China is important, particularly many outsourcing there have already been burned financially, most industries were heavily subsidised to attract foreign companies, and these subsidies suddenly, and without warning began to be removed in 2010.

These are simply a few reasons i think the UK and its Government should work with the Uk's boaters and boating industry to keep it as British as possible, and attract as many foreign visitors as possible.

 

[Nautical]

Well said Henry and I sincerely hope your in the right when it comes to the future for British boat building or at least the production boat building side (probably the custom stuff and one off's will always remain, there's no money in those for any serious investment).

We make great boats (er, and some shoddy ones too!). My concern if its worth anything is that just flying the flag and buying British for the sake of it is not going to stop new entries to the market beating the life out of our industry if we do not grasp the nettle and face the reality and that is our unit costs are high, very high, all well and good when you have no competition but when you have an equally well built compeditor, designed by a British or Italian architect, branded with with a UK or EU trade mark and is 30% cheaper and they are offering you 10% more on your PX are you really going to bite the bullet and shell out 40% more to have that union jack sticker on the transom?. Some of us will but I am afraid I think many will not. It's not going to happen overnight but that is never the way with these things, we kind of get caught with our pants down several years later when it has sneaked up on us. This I imagine is all long term strategy stuff but there is no doubting the level of activity in China and the money floating around for aquisitions has never been higher, but, its a waiting game and one they are very good at , if it takes ten years so what, plenty of money to keep afloat until the tide changes a decade from now, in the meantime you can be sure they are garnering the skill sets needed to match like for like when the time comes.

Just as an FYI, below one of many new yards that seem to have shed loads of money being thrown at them in China.

This is their new sate of the art yard and design offices... and the following pictures are of what is coming out of it !, all designed by our very own Bill Dixon and £1/4m cheaper than your equivilant FairPrinSun.....

 

[IDAMAY]

Buying British (or not)

This is a very interesting thread. Here is my three pence worth - for what it is worth!

I have been a boat owner for over 25 years. I owned eight Sealines from a 195 though three other sport cruisers and three fly bridge models, finally finishing up with a T47. Throughout that time I was broadly satisfied with the product and service provided by Sealine and its dealers. Sealine provided a good trade in path and always beat the opposition (other UK builders) when it came to a PX deal. Their build quality may not have been as good as some of the competitors but they always won out on price. I was happy to be buying British.

Last year I decided on a change of tack. I cruise at least 1500 nm most years and so fuel price had become a much more significant factor to me. I wanted something that provided good accomodation and superior fuel consumption. After some research, the answer was a semi displacement trawler style MB. This gives me at least twice the MPG of the T47, albeit at lower speeds but what's the hurry?

To get back to the point. Could I buy such a machine built in the UK? I think not. The boat is a Trader 42HT built in China. The general quality of this boat is way better than any of the Sealines that I owned. The attention to detail is phenomenal. Just a couple of examples that may, in a way, be considered trivial but illustrate the Chinese way:

1. If there are four cross head screws round, say a deck fitting, the cross heads will all be pointing in the same direction.

2. On the pipe from the generator inlet strainer I found a plastic bag secured with a cable tie containing a spare O ring for the strainer bowl.

The boat does not have a single creak or groan in seas where the T47 would have been singing many tunes! It is three and a half years old and has six hundred hours on the engines. I bought it second hand so I am not aware of any warranty issues it may have had but in my ownership has only needed routine servicing. So far I have absolutely no qualms about the build and design quality. (Hope that doesn't make me a hostage to fortune!)

In summary - it's not only at the smaller end that the UK boat builders doe not enable us to buy British and I entirely agree with those who see a big threat from China. I will buy British again if and when the market meets my needs but not just for the sake of it.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Who's flag do you fly on the back of your boat when you are under way? Who's emblem is on the front of your passport when you travel overseas? Be proud of Britain and celebrate one of it's best exports.

And all this from a bloke who sells German cars for a living

 

[henryf]

I totally agree that all things have to be equal in order to get you to part with your money. But that's the thing, with UK motorboats I think they are. If you find yourself saving money then something will have to give along the way.

The picture of that Chinese boat looks lovely, but my worry would be that to achieve that £250k saving (if it is indeed that much cheaper once you come to write the cheque), do I have to accept a lesser build quality. Asia is great at making things look the part, it's ensuring those looks are backed up by solid production techniques and well planned installation behind the scenes correct materials choice and so on.

As far as Trader is concerned I understand they are a company not without it's fair share of problems. Do Hardy not make a British semi displacement boat ?

I'm not claiming for one minute that Great Britain makes something for everyone currently and neither am I asking people to pay over the odds. Merely to keep it in mind when looking around and to promote celebration and acknowledgement.

Henry

 

[henryf]

And all this from a bloke who sells German cars for a living

Because unlike the British motorboat manufacturers our car industry doesn't produce as world class a product. It has been besotted by troubles, production issues, and the best stuff is prohibitively expensive or extremely niche market.

I'm not asking people to buy British motorboats as a compromise, but because they are excellent.

Henry

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

PY , I don't think building big and tough is the problem, AKA Nordhavn now built in China.

A Nordhavn has little stress compared to a Sportfish who drives at 30 knots of 50 plus tones in ten feet waves.

Actually considering the speed a Nordhavn built it can be built just a bit stronger to a sailing boat if not the same schedule.
Screw a hole, or watch the stringer system in a your normal production sailing boat and do it the same on a normal motor boat. And you can see where I am going with this.

Basically a sportfish or motor boat at plus thirty knots in flat one ft seas receives the same stess a sailing boat will do in a Force 5, 6 feet waves sea. There is a whole enginerring difference going on here. That is my point.

Yes Nordhavn are built in China and so are Selene, both good looking boats. But for me whatever people say the best Asian production build that I have seen built which can bring to shame some Europeans remains Grand Banks. The others are all following....

 

[Mike k]

My view for what its worth is that this is a question of economics not patriotism.If we brits built the best boats at the best price we would sell more than anybody. Coming from East Lancashire we were once the world leaders in textiles because we produced something great that everybody needed at the cheaperst price- now we dont it comes from abroad where they now have the technology and the cheaper labour.We once had an empire so did the italians , turks, etc etc - times move on. I am patriotic but wont pay more for less if that happensd to be the case!