Buy British campaign

[vas]

interesting discussion, drifting a bit left and right and I'd really wouldn't like it to turn into a UK vs IT fight, not really worth it.
However, being neutral having lived in UK (and enjoyed cities, countryside, ppl, beer, et al) for over a decade, appreciating design (by profession) and in love of IT machinery and UK equipment and designs, I think that PYB has a few points.

Design and innovation and aesthetics are exceptionally hard to judge and impossible/pointless to try to persuade the other on your views.

In the same way I love an E-type or a mk2 7 or my Rega planar 2 deck, I also appreciate that innovative design is often hard to digest and takes time (see years) before it's fully appreciated and hence assimilated/copied in bulk. AFAIK, Brit boatbuilder seem to be doing that, waiting and using. I'm talking design, functional elements and not necessarily mech/engineering stuff which I'm not an expert by any stretch of imagination.

I think each to their own, horses for courses, etc, I sincerely hope that both UK. IT, FR, TR and all builders keep in business and prosper it's good for all of us but indeed things are hard so lets try to be constructive here

V.

 

[MapisM]

you remind me of the father from the film "my big fat Greek wedding". The bloke who used window cleaning spray as the solution to every conceivable problem and who's catchphrase was, "you know is from Greek word ........."

LOL, yeah.
But...
...hang on a minute...
...couldn't that be said also for "designed and built in Great Britain by great British craftsmen, (and women)"

 

[henryf]

I've just googled a couple of the boats as suggested and wow!

It's err..... Sort of like looking straight in the pages of any of the big 4's modern day brochure. In fact now looking at them with a modern head on my shoulders I'm struggling to see what used to put me off.

In my size the Conam 48 Chorum caught my eye.

She's a real beauty and from a practicality point of view I'm left wondering how you could possibly improve on it? Answers on a postcard to the editor please.

Did you mention being able to see all your crew at all times? I certainly can't disagree with you there. Are the mooring cleats in the usual position on the gunwale

I'm sorry I know I should make fun but the tears were literally streaming down my face. Just run by me again which British build boat had stolen it's styling cues from it?

Henry

 

[halcyon]

In my size the Conam 48 Chorum caught my eye.

She's a real beauty and from a practicality point of view I'm left wondering how you could possibly improve on it? Answers on a postcard to the editor please.

That design was stolen from the Austin Princess, and they went on about BL design.

Brian

 

[henryf]

I am also desperate that the thread doesn't turn into a British versus Italy, Asia or the rest of the world debate.

Can we say that British Motorboat builders are up there with the best of them? If we agree on that then hopefully it is a natural progression to take pride in the fact they are managing to survive and compete with a highly labour intensive product which goes against the current trend.

Henry

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes very clever on catching the weirest design, which I said it was.

So far none of the Britsh have used a wide body design in this sizes. Obviously in bigger sizes it has been used a lot and the result is different to this.
But if you studied design someone has to break the mould and Conam did just that with 48 in the mid eighties. Credit has to be given where is due. And while the 48 Chorum is weird it was interesting how other designers and builders used its ideas in the Super Yacht plus 80 feet sizes. The funny thing is that most of them are actually non Italian builds. There is very little wide body Italian build super yachts, but the Dutch did present a lot of design. Most notable a very famous builder like Heesen which has a 38 meter series I think build in like six hulls.

If you want I can make you a list of design technological innovations which have been first released by Italians, from glued windows, to midships master room, large view windows, fore deck settee, prop tunnels, tender garage, extended bathing platforms for tender stowage, etc.
And then try to tell me which was invented by the Brits.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If I were building in the UK I would (and I doubt this would ever happen) get all four of the majors to get around a table and collate all their common parts and machinery together and go with a bigger stick to the main engine, genset, electronics etc suppliers, I warrant that any supplier will shave their prices if all engines going into UK product was collectively negociated. 10% shaved on the juicy stuff would have a noticable affect on the retail price, no huge but maybe another little edge.

I doubt whether the UK boat building industry can offer major component suppliers enough volume to make a substantial difference to the unit price. Also, the bigger players like Sunseeker and Princess, who doubtless already enjoy substantial discounts, would be asking themselves why they should help the smaller players lower their costs and simply create stronger competition for themselves.
Anyway, even 10% off (which I very much doubt they'd get) wouldn't make a big difference to a price of a boat. A 50 footer might have 2 x £50k engines + 1 x £10k gennie. So that equates to only £11k off the price of a £600-700k boat which is not a lot

 

[halcyon]

Can we say that British Motorboat builders are up there with the best of them? If we agree on that then hopefully it is a natural progression to take pride in the fact they are managing to survive and compete with a highly labour intensive product which goes against the current trend.

Yes you can.

I have a vested interest in the British boatbuilders, they have paid my bills for the last 30 years. So I see it from the inside out, and it has changed, but like the car builders, the British public knock it at every oppertunity.

We forget how big it used to be, from memory Westerly had produced 57,000 yachts when it went bust. Why because the British buyer wanted Westerly to sell at the same price as Jan & Ben, but at the qaulity of Sweeden. Like why can't Rover make a car like a BMW but for the price of a Ford, the Bitish bought a Mini for £11,000, and moaned about a Rover 25 being £7,500.

You hear on the forum about Sealine quality being low because they were cheap. Sealines were cheap because Tom Murrant was a production engineer, they were built to a very high standard very effieciently. Back in the early 90's I sat on a Princess watching the electrician loading dozens of rolls of cable on board and running each cable in, it took may be a week. At Kidderminster Martin had a small shop with a bench with cable reels at each end, and building jigs for each boat. half day he had a complete boat harness with all standard and optional cables, complete with multi-way plugs fitted. We supplied the switch panel, completely wired up with multi-way plugs. The harness went in the boat first op, last op take panel unwrap, plug in and fit 6 screws, total time to wire boat 4 hours. The whole of Sealine was set up like this then, it ment they could make 10 boats with the space and overheads Princess made 1. In the last two weeks I have spoke to 3 owners with Sealines built 1986 - 1989, original switch panel, charging system and mains battery charger are still working, thats what Sealine qaulity used to stand for. Around 1990 Sealine were making around 40 boats a month, 70 / 80% were exported.

Moving off a little, anyone watched a Lidal store being built ? they built one 50 foot from were our boat is stored. Every item to build that store came on lorries with German number plates, that was everything down to the last nut and bolt. All the labour was German, when the men with white vans arrived to do the finishing the white vans had German number plates. After it has opened they had men in doing the odd jobs, again white vans with German number plates.

When will we learn.

Brian

 

[volvopaul]

I wonder working in the UK how many other EU boats u work. The UK boating community is still very much a very home protected market, and when the things where getting interestingly competitive by the French, here come the UK£ devalution...
By your posts u do here I can very much imagine your list though...
Nothing wrong by that, but I imagine out of ten boats your work, eight to be British, which really is not a level of comparison to make a good judgement of the competition.

Hi sorry no, I work on Gobbi, jeaneau, beneteau, traders, c kips,Windys,Rinkers,monterey,bayliners, grand banks, histar, ...... shall I go on??

 

[grumpy_o_g]

The only real British builder, which makes boat for the UK market is actually Broom, and Sealine is a bit of inbetween. But still Sealine has Med use in mind but with a certain British practicality.

Northshore, Hardy, Spirit, Hunton, Swallow Boats?

 

[Assassin]

The design element is interesting as is the functionality, if one designer comes up with a new concept which looks or performs well, others will copy it or provide their version in their boats, so no idea is sacred.

Many items follow trends, many secumb to fads, and if one major player offers something on their craft others will soon follow. If we translate this to cars we can see the rapid progression in items which were luxury accesories, but are now fitted as standard to compete with their competitors. Not that many years ago air conditioning involved winding down your window, that has now been replaced by pushing a button to lower your window, and even the most basic vehicles come with air con, slightly larger vehicles come with dual or multi zone climate control.

The same applies to boats, but takes much longer as many buy a boat and keep it for longer than an average car.

 

[Assassin]

On the issue of Italian food, my favourite is the pizza (allegedly Italian) made by a company called Dr Oatker (German) and manufactured in Ireland; when i see the TV advert it tickles me. Then there is the name Dr Oatker, it sounds more akin to a WWII concentration camp doctor conducting unnatural experiments.

 

[henryf]

I think boat design differs fundamentally from car design in that there aren't the same regulatory constraints and the physical action of driving and parking a car is much simpler than skippering a boat. Tarmac stays in one place and when you park up all you have to do is apply the hand brake, assuming it's a manual gearbox otherwise just leave it in "park".

Similarly the interior space has to perform a function beyond just sitting you down in one spot for the entirety of the journey. It also has to act as a living space.

I think in the main British motorboat builders are pretty good at understanding what their product has to do. The British buyer is primarily interested in functionality. Look at reviews from the magazines, they bleat on constantly about boring stuff such as helm seat positioning, galley accessibility and functionality, toilet and shower availability and usability. Listen to buyers at the boat show, they talk about cupboard location, mooring cleats and fuel separator accessibility.

That Conam is simply unusable. It might as well not have engines because when a mid ship spring cleat is 12 feet up in the air you can't tie up. Contrast that with our Princess and we not only have cleats in all the usual places easily accessible but also a handy one low down by our bathing platform. These combine to afford me safety and security in any of the myriad of different mooring situations I come up against in the course of a year.

Similarly the interior of my boat uses every inch of space perfectly. Primarily it's a functional space, but by careful design and the use of a full sized pre-production mock up they have not only fine tuned but also been able to make it a stylish environment to be in as well. Materials choice, level of craftsmanship and a basic design which allows as much natural light as possible in all pull together.

British motorboat manufacturers do this very well. Some better than others and some models within a company's line up will work better than others but when comparing one against another we are generally debating personal choice rather than functionality pass or fail.

It's when you consider all the roles a motorboat has to fulfil that you start to realise just how clever these guys are. From initial concept to execution thousands of design decisions have to be taken, any one of which could ruin the craft. As you walk round a boat it's easy to criticise bits you don't like, much harder when you're staring at a blank piece of paper.

Henry

Edited to say: Of course the boat also has to look great as well. No one wants to be known as the person with "that ugly thing on J pontoon" !

 

[halcyon]

I think boat design differs fundamentally from car design!

Roger who has started doing Sealine design ( starting with the 365 ) was the chap who designed the Metro, so there is a crossover. He was the one who saw the future in designing the deck layout, to produce headroom below for a cabin.

Brian

 

[henryf]

Ah, the Metro. Not quite the design icon that the Mini was or is, but a car which holds the special title in motoring legend as the one in which I got my first speeding ticket. Something very ironic there

I think from a production technique perspective much can be learned by looking at different industries as you pointed out earlier. And to some extent a designer is a designer. They create a solution to a problem and in doing so create aesthetic.

But, and I have to be really careful here because I absolutely don't want to turn this into a battle of the builders, different designers have different approaches especially when it comes to something like a boat interior.

One of the big 4 would appear to be using interior designers to create their internal spaces as opposed to marine architects or designers. What this results in is a lovely space with some innovative concepts but an overall under utilisation of space. In a house that doesn't matter because there is plenty of it (space). In fact having more space adds massively to the feeling of luxury. Think of all those vaulted ceilings, you could have another room up there and they cost money to heat but high ceilings make you feel liberated and create a luxurious environment.

Once again I don't want to turn this into an argument about which builder is best. This particular builder isn't producing bad boats, far from it they are bloody good ones but I just see a different approach and for my personal use of a boat it doesn't quite work. For others it may be perfect and just what they are after especially if they entertain a lot during the day and need the extra floor area.

I think to be a good marine designer you have to use and live aboard boats. Then, and only then can you get a feel for what is needed.

We all drive cars on a daily basis so a designer is far more likely to understand what is required.

Henry

 

[EME]

Enjoyable discussion ...

At least we can all agree that in the Boating World there is loads of individuality

I was at Monaco Yacht Show yesterday. I have always had a personal 'pre-conception' that tri-deck Super Yachts are all similar. Wrong. Just seeing the innovation and improvement ( I only get to see exteriors!) is stunning year-on-year.... and as for some some of the tenders! For something new (ie different and new to me) have a look at the "Wider" or the U-Boat Worx C-Explorer

Henry's logical argument for buying is persuasive --- but that 1980s Cronum is designed for Stern-To-Mooring. I wont mention "Brands" but have a good look around SIBS in 2011 and you will see UK new models (no names) that have poor cleat arrangements for stern-to mooring.

 

[henryf]

Not guilty on that score. 2 rear cleats nice and accessible and 2 long cleats just above the bathing platform where the transom rolls round. They are invaluable for side on mooring as well in that they keep the back of the boat close into the pontoon so little people don't fall in!

But you are right, when we raft up against another boat we see many different arrangements some more successful than others. These are things you only know about when you use a boat in anger in a variety of different scenarios. Pile moorings are another good example of a situation which could easily be overlooked by designers.

A good motorboat is a floating Swiss army knife.

Henry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Roger who has started doing Sealine design ( starting with the 365 ) was the chap who designed the Metro, so there is a crossover. He was the one who saw the future in designing the deck layout, to produce headroom below for a cabin.

Brian

I thought it was the Sierra which is why many Sealines from that era had that Mr Blobby look! Yes, Sealine have long been masters at extracting max accomodation space from a given hull length but I dont think even their biggest fan could call Sealines desirable in the way that many Italian boats are

 

[Assassin]

HenryF:

I think you misinterpreted my post, its assertion is that if one boat company comes up with a nice piece of design, or technical feature then others will emulate or copy it into their designs.

I merely used the motor industry to illustrate the point as they move much more quickly in the introduction of technologies and fads as cars turn over much more quickly than boats.

If we revert back to boats, the first real engines were steam until some nutter put a diesel engine in, then everybody put diesel engines in and the nutter sudddenly became a pioneer, and everyone has them. Likewise if someone comes up with another power source for their boat and it costs half as much to run as a diesel engine and gives similar performance, every builder will introduce it.

 

[henryf]

I understand what you were saying, that's how design works in all fields. My comments were more aimed at the implication that a good car designer could become a good boat designer.

I've got a couple of days at the boat show now, once I've give that bloke from the MBY stand a good slap, (See "MBY cover price" thread ), I'll be having a good rummage round the boats

Henry.