baart
Active member
Is there a cost effective way of buying a boat in the EU and bringing it here ? or am I limited to the UK stock after Brexit ?
Beginning to think we need a bigger boat
- Thread starter baart
- Start date
geem
Well-known member
The OP said "rather heavier than lighter". He also said something more suitable for Northern sailing not the Med.
The Ben 393 is a high volume hull with the same displacement as a Rival 38. I can see why it wouldn't be much fun for sailing in the kind of conditions the OP describes. Something you rarely see on an Atlantic crossing East to West. Very relevant information to the thread
dgadee
Well-known member
The OP needs a Dehler 37cws! Just looked at the requirements and they fit - except there's the added advantage of electric winch and self tacking head sail (or normal head sail). If it had two keels it would my absolutely perfect boat.
Ours is in the Med and it's fine but I think it is more a northern boat - e.g. no swim platform, not so good at stern docking (though that might just be me).
Ours is in the Med and it's fine but I think it is more a northern boat - e.g. no swim platform, not so good at stern docking (though that might just be me).
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
If you are a UK resident and you want to use your boat in the UK then the following options are open from easiest to most problematic:
Buy a UK VAT paid boat - limiting you to UK stock.
Buy a UK VAT paid boat in the EU and get the current UK owner to bring it back to the UK as returning goods before completing the sale.
Buy an EU non-VAT paid boat, export it and bring it to the UK where it will have to meet the current rules here: UK Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (RCR) – HPi Verification Services Ltd. and must pay VAT.
Buy an EU VAT paid boat and bring it to the UK where it will have to meet the current rules here: UK Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (RCR) – HPi Verification Services Ltd. and must pay VAT again.
dgadee
Well-known member
You can also:
Buy a UK VAT paid boat in Northern Ireland which was there on Brexit day. It will have relevant VAT paid status for both the EU and UK. (My Seawolf has that status).
Ps: just added that for fullness - I know the OP wants to buy in EU.
Buy a UK VAT paid boat in Northern Ireland which was there on Brexit day. It will have relevant VAT paid status for both the EU and UK. (My Seawolf has that status).
Ps: just added that for fullness - I know the OP wants to buy in EU.
Tranona
Well-known member
He did but if you bothered to read the whole thread you will find that many said that was not necessary for the type of sailing he was planning, nor necessarily desirable citing the many thousands of people who do exactly the same with boats like the Beneteau. Sticking to that limits him to 30+year old boats with his budget. You will also find (post#194) that he is also leaning towards more modern designs having taken on board the discussions in this thread,
It still puzzles me why you and one or 2 others persist in the idea that only a certain type of boat not made in any quantities for more than 30 years is the only (or even preferred type) for offshore cruising when the evidence for all who have eyes to see what is actually going on will know that is simply not true. YOU may prefer such a boat and the odd person you meet may well tell you they would have chosen differently but you are statistically in a small minority worldwide (and particularly in Europe where the OP will be cruising).
Tranona
Well-known member
Only in very limited situations where there is either a market imperfection that results in EU prices being lower, or you are in a position to buy a boat in the Eastern Med (where most of the VAT free boats are located) and absorb the time and cost of bringing it back to the UK.
The former is rare now - a quick search will show that EU prices are comparable to UK prices or even higher. You may find Scandinavia a possible source mainly because certain types of boat are available there that are simply not available in the UK and you may think value even paying VAT.
The second route is possible, There has long been a good trade in ex charter boats being bought by non EU residents, mainly N American and from down under which are then perhaps used for a year or 2 in Europe and sailed home either for personal use or sold to pay for the trip.
In a UK context one could do that and take a couple of year's holiday cruising the Med and then back to the UK in the spring the long way round. Boat would be OK for certification and you would pay VAT on a value reduced by time and your wear and tear from over 2000 miles sailing. However you would have to "write off" the cost of getting it here which is likely to be in the order of £20k when you take into account berthing costs, fuel, transport and extra wear and tear. When I brought my first Bavaria back from Corfu in 2010 with a professional skipper, sailing to Spain and then truck to Poole total cost was over £8k.
From what I see of ex VAT prices in Greece and Croatia they are probably higher on a straight UK VAT paid price in the UK
The reality is that Brexit has made the UK a closed market where supply is at best limited and actually declining as few new boats of modest size are being imported and many are falling out of use because of age. Hence the rise in prices which means boats in your target sector have risen 15-20% in the last year. Almost a "buy now while stock lasts, just like Lidl". Not too different from cars where the number of new cars entering the market is 40% lower than it would otherwise have been if there was not the switch in production to electric/hybrids which means my 6 year old C Max is worth much the same as when I bought it 4 years ago and my wife's 2005 Fiesta is worth £2k!
geem
Well-known member
The OP has stated his preference for a heavier boat. What experience of sailing in tough conditions do you actually have? When was the last time you were out in the kind of winds the OP describes? There are many people sailing who claim to have experienced tough condition when they saw a gust. They didn't experience sustained winds and they didn't experience the sea state that goes with those winds. Let's stick to what we know and not what we think we might know
baart
Active member
Just to clarify again what I mean by heavy. This is based on the recent experience in a Jeanneau Voyage 12.5 in 40knt of wind. That boat's displacement is 8150kg with 3350kg of ballast. The D/L ratio 216. This is my point of reference, possibly somewhat limited, when it comes to comfort at sea on bigger boats. In that boat I could go in those conditions for hours without getting tired. On the other hand I have our boat whose calculations are quite good for the boat of it's size but it is only 30ft with 3300kg displacement and 1500kg fin keel. Our heavy weather experience shows us she copes reasonably well with the conditions but requires a lot of focus because of size so you get uncomfortable and tired pretty quickly. I wouldn't choose to go out in her in anything above F7 unless I had no choice, and F7 is pushing it a bit already in waves, In the above mentioned Jeanneau I wouldn't be too worried. This is basically what I am hoping to replicate when buying our next boat. The question is which boat offers that and provides sufficient accommodation and no hidden problems? Appreciate it might be easier to achieve with 40ft than with 36ft. Looking for example at Patrick Laine's youtube channel, the Bavaria 40 he had previously seemed to have provided enough comfort on his passage to Azores. Don't think we need more than that but would prefer to stay around 38ft. lf on top of that we can do it for around 60k or possibly less even better.
dankilb
Well-known member
As a minor aside, it’s likely a fair bit heavier…! We have a ‘89 Voyage and she surprised us (and set off the crane alarms!) weighing in at over 9.5t completely dry (mid-refit).
Tranona
Well-known member
When are you going to be serious instead of trying to do me down all the time. It is irrelevant where and how I have sailed and in what over the last 40 odd years. That is not the basis for the points that I and many others are making. The majority of cruising boats of this size are NOT old style heavy boats - there simply are not enough to go round and if they were so superior why have so few (almost none) been built for the last 30 years? You cannot argue this not so because that is a fact. If the newer boats are so unsuitable for the type of cruising the OP is planning why do so many people spend their hard earned cash buying them to do just that?
As I say I really cannot understand why you are contesting this and making personal comments about me only shows the paucity of your arguments. Continually stating that only certain types of boats are suitable when everything around us says the opposite is really strange.
baart
Active member
I believe it is, I quoted figures from sailboatdata, may not be fully accurate.
Manosk
Member
I would agree with Graham376 about centre cockpit boats being drier in rough conditions and feeling more secure
having owned a Forgus37 and now a Nordship 32
having owned a Forgus37 and now a Nordship 32
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
"Feeling secure" ... this is my take on it.
When I started sailing in the 70s as a small kid, the average family cruiser was somewhere between 20 and 30 foot long. 30 ft boats and above were for the well heeled.
We had a Kingfisher 20+ and then an Albin Vega which was 27ft long. My dad was a very typical cruising sailor of the time, yachting magazines were on the coffee table, dreams of Rivals, Rustlers and Contessas were often discussed with other cruising families. We cruised regularly with another family who had a Centaur.
My dad seriously believed the Vega was a blue water boat, that's why he bought it, for its seaworthiness .... he would wax lyrical about how Vegas had crossed the Atlantic and gone on to circumnavigate.
This was typical of the era from the first Golden Globe race, up to the #79 Fastnet disaster where the Contessa 32 emerged as the ultimate seaworthy boat in the eyes of your average cruiser.
So how do you make a small boat feel safer? ...... You give it inertia ... and you do this by making it heavier.
Boats of that era were built heavy for 2 reasons - the first was that as they were small, added weight meant more inertia (a more sea kindly motion), and the second was that in the absence of detailed structural modelling, designers and builders just added more fiberglass. They still made mistakes, post-production mods to beef up areas of weakness were commonplace at the time.
The freeboard was also low, waves that would be shrugged off by a modern 40ft boat come over the bows of a smaller one, the rail goes under regularly because of the low freeboard. Even with the inertia of added weight, small boats still get tossed around more than larger ones and because of the tendency to go through waves rather than over them they are wet to sail. This is where the belief that seaworthy boats need to be heavy comes from - and it persists to this day. It is true that no matter what size a boat is, the heavier it is, the less it will move around due to external forces - the question is do we really need to add extra weight when the boats today are already so much bigger (and heavier) than their predecessors?
IMO, the answer is no. A modern 40 foot boat will feel easily as "safe" as a 1979 Contessa ... so why pay the penalty of inertia and added weight if you don't need it? A Contessa 32, the ultimate (and expensive) cruiser of the 70s weighed 4.3 tonnes .... a Bavaria C38 on sale today at the bottom end of the range weighs 9.3 tonnes.
We could go on to the other bug-bear of some modern boats, the shallow forefoot and slamming - it does happen, but is vastly overplayed as a problem, especially once the boat is laden down with all the cruising gear an owner usually keeps on board - charter boats tend to run with minimal inventory, so are lightly laden compared with an average privately owned version.
Perception of "Seaworthiness" preached by the generations of sailors whose formative years were in the 70s and 80s is pushing new boat owners towards costly mistakes IMO - the average 30-40 year old boat is a pandoras box of hidden issues that are more likely to have you on the hard than out on the water.
When I started sailing in the 70s as a small kid, the average family cruiser was somewhere between 20 and 30 foot long. 30 ft boats and above were for the well heeled.
We had a Kingfisher 20+ and then an Albin Vega which was 27ft long. My dad was a very typical cruising sailor of the time, yachting magazines were on the coffee table, dreams of Rivals, Rustlers and Contessas were often discussed with other cruising families. We cruised regularly with another family who had a Centaur.
My dad seriously believed the Vega was a blue water boat, that's why he bought it, for its seaworthiness .... he would wax lyrical about how Vegas had crossed the Atlantic and gone on to circumnavigate.
This was typical of the era from the first Golden Globe race, up to the #79 Fastnet disaster where the Contessa 32 emerged as the ultimate seaworthy boat in the eyes of your average cruiser.
So how do you make a small boat feel safer? ...... You give it inertia ... and you do this by making it heavier.
Boats of that era were built heavy for 2 reasons - the first was that as they were small, added weight meant more inertia (a more sea kindly motion), and the second was that in the absence of detailed structural modelling, designers and builders just added more fiberglass. They still made mistakes, post-production mods to beef up areas of weakness were commonplace at the time.
The freeboard was also low, waves that would be shrugged off by a modern 40ft boat come over the bows of a smaller one, the rail goes under regularly because of the low freeboard. Even with the inertia of added weight, small boats still get tossed around more than larger ones and because of the tendency to go through waves rather than over them they are wet to sail. This is where the belief that seaworthy boats need to be heavy comes from - and it persists to this day. It is true that no matter what size a boat is, the heavier it is, the less it will move around due to external forces - the question is do we really need to add extra weight when the boats today are already so much bigger (and heavier) than their predecessors?
IMO, the answer is no. A modern 40 foot boat will feel easily as "safe" as a 1979 Contessa ... so why pay the penalty of inertia and added weight if you don't need it? A Contessa 32, the ultimate (and expensive) cruiser of the 70s weighed 4.3 tonnes .... a Bavaria C38 on sale today at the bottom end of the range weighs 9.3 tonnes.
We could go on to the other bug-bear of some modern boats, the shallow forefoot and slamming - it does happen, but is vastly overplayed as a problem, especially once the boat is laden down with all the cruising gear an owner usually keeps on board - charter boats tend to run with minimal inventory, so are lightly laden compared with an average privately owned version.
Perception of "Seaworthiness" preached by the generations of sailors whose formative years were in the 70s and 80s is pushing new boat owners towards costly mistakes IMO - the average 30-40 year old boat is a pandoras box of hidden issues that are more likely to have you on the hard than out on the water.
geem
Well-known member
You make comments as if you are an expert but you don't sail in the conditions the Op describes
Maybe you need to read this
Understand your boat and her statistics
baart
Active member
Where do I get the AVS and STIX figures from for the boats discussed so far? They don't seem to be easily available
ashtead
Well-known member
SailboatData.com might help . I think some sites like this allow to enter to compare models -larger than you are looking for perhaps but could compare say a rustler42 with a moody41ac with a jeanneau 12.5 say . Don’t forget though when looking at all these specs that it’s the layout and gear set up which often really influences plus most importantly price and age
It often come down to do you want say an old Hallberg /malo or say oyster406 type or a newer Ben,Bav ,Jen . One might like a shiny new Hallberg 40 but is it worth the premium over a shiny ne jeaneau or moody ? Even with older boats same consideration. Many older boats eg Najad are like hobbit hall -chintz curtains etc -some like the feeling of this or say an older westerly sea lord type - others prefer newer Hanse say or Dufour maybe.
It often come down to do you want say an old Hallberg /malo or say oyster406 type or a newer Ben,Bav ,Jen . One might like a shiny new Hallberg 40 but is it worth the premium over a shiny ne jeaneau or moody ? Even with older boats same consideration. Many older boats eg Najad are like hobbit hall -chintz curtains etc -some like the feeling of this or say an older westerly sea lord type - others prefer newer Hanse say or Dufour maybe.
baart
Active member
Not with AVS though, are the manufacturers hiding this data for some reason?
not interested in the looks or the badge, just in boat's ability to do the job
Supertramp
Well-known member
I think you are on the right track with your thinking. The boat is important but there are old and new designs that will do the job and deal with gale conditions without worry. I agree that weight matters, borne out of my experience. I would like to sail one of the modern, wider bow, heavier 37/38 designs in a good wind and sea for comparison.
Consider all aspects of your use of the boat, how and where you would cruise (marina vs anchoring), and the features that make living aboard easier especially as you grow older. A good autopilot and cockpit layout with decent shelter were on my list. So was the ability to run over a lobster pot line without snagging.
The condition of any boat over 20 years is really important, and I don't believe that everything needs replaced. Well built and well looked after boats will last well. Hard use, damp interiors and ill made modifications will create premature problems.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
There is no conspiracy to hide the data, it was all tested to obtain the CE Certifications. Some of the data can be found here ... https://www.boatdesign.net/attachments/stability-list-rya-080201-xls.66663
Take the Rustler 42 - no one would question its offshore credentials.
The Rustler 42 has an ISO AVS of 123 .... which is the same as an Oceanis 311 lifting keel.
The Rustler 42 has an ISO STIX of 41 .... but a Sun Odyssey 43 has an ISO STIX of 44 - A lot of offshore sailing schools use Sun Odyssey boats.
So what is going on? Well, there are far more factors at play than paperwork or formulas. It's like buying a car based on HP and 0-60 time only to discover it doesn't go round corners.
Get on loads of boats, old and new, sail them and make your own mind up.
