Beginning to think we need a bigger boat

[Tranona]

I couldn't see any deck saloon yachts in that size range other than Colvic Countess 37 ? I like Moody Eclipse but it is a bit too small.

Very few at this size range for 2 reasons. First there is not enough "bulk" to make it work both practically and aesthetically and second because of the extra cost resulted in an out of proportion price premium. So while people like the idea they seem to prefer to buy extra length rather than a hut stuck on top which is what many looked like. Once you get above 40' it becomes more practical and the price premium less. Even then they are rare in production boats, although some like Jeanneau and Bavaria were successful with raised saloon models such as the DS and Vision series. There are exceptions of course, but usually from the premium builders and as you have seen, not often in your price range.

 

[dunedin]

…….
I wasn’t a great fan of centre cockpits but as yet get older maybe they grow on you -perhaps not so good if loads of small crew who each grow up and want own cabins though as they age.

One thing about centre cockpit boats, it often makes the companionway steps both substantially steeper and longer than on a traditional stern cockpit boat. This can make it more difficult for aging people to get in and out of the cabin.
Also a stern cockpit with opening section can make it much easier to get on and off than climbing up the topsides.
So “getting older“ might not be a good reason to go centre cockpit.

 

[johnalison]

*6

gentlemen don’t go to windward

I take expectoration at that.

 

[Wansworth]

I take expectoration at that.

You will be pleased Ian becoming obsessed by m Rothko

 

[doug748]

A couple of medium displacement but reasonably fast solid boats that should fit the budget

Starlight 35 or 39
Westerly Typhoon/Regatta 37

I agree about the Starlights, here is a 35 for sale: Starlight 35 for sale UK, Starlight boats for sale, Starlight used boat sales, Starlight Sailing Yachts For Sale Starlight 35 - Apollo Duck

The price looks possibly within range, inventory looks ok but, as usual, some outlay needed.

These boats are in the modern idiom but with a number of features the OP may favour, such as lead keel on a stub, insulation between two sets of mouldings, a ring frame in support of mast, rig and keel stresses, deep bilge and part skeg supported rudder.

There was one for sale next to me in the yard for 55k, just before Covid and I thought it was good value, in fact had I been younger I may well have bought it. So the asking price looks ok. The 35 is in fact 36ft LOA, it's worth re-reading the Yachtsnet very positive review.
The big question mark is who did the topside job and why was it done. Personally I would not rule out buying a boat that had been previously repaired but you need to go into it with your eyes open.

.

 

[SaltyC]

I often sailed in company with a friend in my HR34 and his Bav34. The Bav (early 2000s) was a good foot longer and more on the waterline and so was a bit faster off the wind but I could leave him behind going to windward in any wind.

Was also amusing against a Bav36 to sail on Stbd tack for an extended period. The toilet suction was out of the water so couldn't flush the toilet! A problem noted on a chartered Jeaneau 39 last summer. The HR 31, 34, 36 and 37 to my knowledge have tge heads inlet on tge CL so tack irrelevant.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I often sailed in company with a friend in my HR34 and his Bav34. The Bav (early 2000s) was a good foot longer and more on the waterline and so was a bit faster off the wind but I could leave him behind going to windward in any wind.

So what you are saying is that if the wind was on the nose it was the only way the HR34 could get to the pub first?

.... basically, don't listen to anecdotes, if performance matters, look at the handicap ratings, get a decent set of sails, a folding prop, keep your bottom clean, and learn how to sail well.

Another interesting point though, as a general rule, the bigger the difference between the LOA and the LWL, the less interior space there is, and the more you end up paying in marina fees because of the overhangs.

 

[Supertramp]

Or just enjoy the journey and don't worry about getting there first.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Was also amusing against a Bav36 to sail on Stbd tack for an extended period. The toilet suction was out of the water so couldn't flush the toilet! A problem noted on a chartered Jeaneau 39 last summer. The HR 31, 34, 36 and 37 to my knowledge have tge heads inlet on tge CL so tack irrelevant.

I think you've got your tacks mixed up, both J&J and Farr designed Bav36s had the toilet on the port side, so on a starboard tack it would be well under water - the only exception was the owners version which had it at the rear on the starboard side. I guess you're going to tell us it was an owners version? ... I never experienced the problem you described in 12 years of owning a Bav36, maybe you could get the toilet inlet out of the water if you really tried hard, but that is not the most efficient way to sail one.

Modern boats aren't waterlogged tree-trunks that you need to sail with the toe rail underwater, do that and you're not going to get optimal performance out of them.

 

[westhinder]

I agree about the Starlights, here is a 35 for sale: Starlight 35 for sale UK, Starlight boats for sale, Starlight used boat sales, Starlight Sailing Yachts For Sale Starlight 35 - Apollo Duck

The price looks possibly within range, inventory looks ok but, as usual, some outlay needed.

These boats are in the modern idiom but with a number of features the OP may favour, such as lead keel on a stub, insulation between two sets of mouldings, a ring frame in support of mast, rig and keel stresses, deep bilge and part skeg supported rudder.

There was one for sale next to me in the yard for 55k, just before Covid and I thought it was good value, in fact had I been younger I may well have bought it. So the asking price looks ok. The 35 is in fact 36ft LOA, it's worth re-reading the Yachtsnet very positive review.
The big question mark is who did the topside job and why was it done. Personally I would not rule out buying a boat that had been previously repaired but you need to go into it with your eyes open.

.

I might add that the Mk 2 series built by Rival Bowman have a better interior: the detailing and the finish are much improved, Rival Bowman had some pretty good craftsmen. I can say this in all objectivity, as the owner of a 39 Mk 2

 

[ashtead]

The 34 also had heads on port side be it 3 cabins or indeed 2 cabin version and never found an issue . If you want an issue though now you mention not sailing up wind on edge with the toe rail underwater like a westerly etc then it’s the mainsheet being in front of sprayhood which isn’t that handy for the helm. One more modern feature of newer Bavaria and Hanse is the German mainsheet system with sheets being much more handy to the winches -I doubt you will find this on boats in budget but it makes whole helming with smaller crew a real simplification in terms of winching in and out as required. These type of features along with self tacking headsail etc actually make the sailing bit of a 41 far simply even with bigger sail area much more a one person operation .

 

[doug748]

..........I have also seen a couple of Oysters Heritage 37. Not sure though what kind of further investment they require.

You may have ruled them out but in terms of comfort in poor conditions I think they would be right up there. I came across this fine piece of video work and recognised the Oyster right away. New to me but these folks are popular on YouTube and for good reason. You may be well aware of it, but anyway:

A friend of mine had one and I sailed in company many times, a fine boat. He wanted to do better in shorthanded racing and bought a new French 34 which he found he could sail no quicker and had a number of warranty issues. He took his Oyster, shorthanded to Spain, Azores etc; one tricky thing about them is an offset prop but he never moaned about it, I guess it exaggerates the turning preference which many boats have.

I can't see many shortcomings in terms of your wish list and the lead keel has allowed them the opportunity to design a relatively shallow keel. The longer fin keel section does mean the boat tacks slower, is directionally stable and does not overwork the self steering gear. All useful on cruising boats sailed shorthanded or in dodgy seas.
One question I would have is over stowage, worth looking at with care, on a number of modern designs it is abysmal. You could get a lot more cabin room for your money but, then again, I could buy size 11 shoes for the same price as my size 8's but would they be much use to me?

PS
They do a pilothouse version but they are few and far between - the chap who sold me my present boat bought one.

PPS
My mate sold his Oyster to a forum member, he may still be around to comment but not sure.

.

 

[johnalison]

So what you are saying is that if the wind was on the nose it was the only way the HR34 could get to the pub first?

.... basically, don't listen to anecdotes, if performance matters, look at the handicap ratings, get a decent set of sails, a folding prop, keep your bottom clean, and learn how to sail well.

Another interesting point though, as a general rule, the bigger the difference between the LOA and the LWL, the less interior space there is, and the more you end up paying in marina fees because of the overhangs.

I agree about anecdotes. I don't necessarily agree about handicap ratings though. Broadly speaking, I think that a cruising boat's speed when cruising is largely a function of its waterline length, though sail area comes into it as well, which is not always reflected in its rating. My 34 is a fairly moderate design but is shorter on the water than the later-designed Bav or the HR replacement 340, which I know from another friend. Both these boats can motor a bit faster than mine but I can leave both behind when the wind is ahead of the beam. The differences are not usually great and they are broadly in the same cruising group. The Bav and 340 are not much different inside, though they have more shoulder room than me. The Bav-owning friend sold it after only three years because it didn't satisfy him as a sailing boat.

 

[baart]

these folks are popular on YouTube and for good reason. You may be well aware

Yes, have been following them for a while. They are one of the reasons I have mentioned the Oyster. The one I have seen was listed for £45k.

I am leaning towards newer designs after this discussion. Mainly because it would be a boat we would hope to use for 20 years+. I guess it is like with old cars, you can keep the going at a significant expense as a hobby but if you drive a lot you will possibly spend more than on a newer car with warranty.

I also see that increasing the budget to 100k as previously suggested would make a significant difference in the options we have. Not too keen but can see it might actually save money in the long term.

 

[dunedin]

I agree about anecdotes. I don't necessarily agree about handicap ratings though. Broadly speaking, I think that a cruising boat's speed when cruising is largely a function of its waterline length, though sail area comes into it as well, which is not always reflected in its rating. My 34 is a fairly moderate design but is shorter on the water than the later-designed Bav or the HR replacement 340, which I know from another friend. Both these boats can motor a bit faster than mine but I can leave both behind when the wind is ahead of the beam. The differences are not usually great and they are broadly in the same cruising group. The Bav and 340 are not much different inside, though they have more shoulder room than me. The Bav-owning friend sold it after only three years because it didn't satisfy him as a sailing boat.

Personally I would be absolutely astounded if an old model HR 34 could outpace a current HR 340 upwind, or indeed the intervening HR 342 which is an excellent sailer by all accounts.
I have seen a lot of HR 34 and HR 342 about, often tacking up the Sound of Mull which is a good test, and definitely consider the HR 342 a faster sailboat on all points. Certainly the HR 34s are much more often motoring Upwind. Seen less HR 340s, and not yet passed one going upwind.
PS. Bavarias, and other AWBs, are much more variable - particularly in terms of the quality, or otherwise, of their and how well they are set. But the ones with decent sails and properly sailed can often make decent progress (Hanse sometimes faster upwind).

 

[Tranona]

Yes, have been following them for a while. They are one of the reasons I have mentioned the Oyster. The one I have seen was listed for £45k.

I am leaning towards newer designs after this discussion. Mainly because it would be a boat we would hope to use for 20 years+. I guess it is like with old cars, you can keep the going at a significant expense as a hobby but if you drive a lot you will possibly spend more than on a newer car with warranty.

I also see that increasing the budget to 100k as previously suggested would make a significant difference in the options we have. Not too keen but can see it might actually save money in the long term.

I think it is a truism of boat buying that the boat you would like is always in the price bracket above your preferred budget. Maybe also true that paying more to get a "better" boat in terms of condition and equipment is better long term.

There does seem to be a dearth of boats for sale in the 36-40' £50-70k range at the moment, but suspect if you increase the budget the restricted choice will be similar.

 

[johnalison]

Personally I would be absolutely astounded if an old model HR 34 could outpace a current HR 340 upwind, or indeed the intervening HR 342 which is an excellent sailer by all accounts.
I have seen a lot of HR 34 and HR 342 about, often tacking up the Sound of Mull which is a good test, and definitely consider the HR 342 a faster sailboat on all points. Certainly the HR 34s are much more often motoring Upwind. Seen less HR 340s, and not yet passed one going upwind.
PS. Bavarias, and other AWBs, are much more variable - particularly in terms of the quality, or otherwise, of their and how well they are set. But the ones with decent sails and properly sailed can often make decent progress (Hanse sometimes faster upwind).

I meant 342; had a mental blank. I sailed in company with our friend's 342 a good number of times. He was an experienced sailor but we left him behind on several occasions to windward, and once in very light wind downwind until he put his cruising-chute up, which I thought unfair. I know little about the later 340 except that it looks odd to my eyes. I can't see why 34s should motor more to windward and suspect that is a random effect. The 342 needs to be reefed earlier and is more sensitive to sail trimming as well as needing more attention at the helm, so it is a matter of swings and roundabouts.

 

[Graham376]

One thing about centre cockpit boats, it often makes the companionway steps both substantially steeper and longer than on a traditional stern cockpit boat. This can make it more difficult for aging people to get in and out of the cabin.
Also a stern cockpit with opening section can make it much easier to get on and off than climbing up the topsides.
So “getting older“ might not be a good reason to go centre cockpit.

In my late 70s, I don't agree with your thoughts. Having had two aft cockpit boats and two centre cockpit, I still prefer the latter and have no problems. Centre cockpits are also drier in rough weather and boarding from dinghy or pontoon is easy with step fender.

 

[geem]

A friend owns a Beneteau 393 which seems quite seaworthy (not that I really know what that word means). I've done a couple of trips on it with him and think the interior layout & cockpit is very "sociable". I assume by "no teak" you mean on the deck rather than interior. I sail to spend time with friends which meant centre cockpit boats were discounted for the lack of room for entertaining in the fresh air.

Dutch friends sailed theirs to the Caribbean and decided its too light for comfortable ocean sailing.they are looking to sell and get something larger and heavier.

 

[Tranona]

Dutch friends sailed theirs to the Caribbean and decided its too light for comfortable ocean sailing.they are looking to sell and get something larger and heavier.

Not relevant to the OP as not only is he not planning on sailing to the Caribbean, but is looking for a smaller boat than a 39 rather than something larger and heavier.