8 x 200ah batteries die after 18 months
- Thread starter MedMilo
- Start date
HelgeA
New member
Hi
Enclosed photos show the SQ58 busbar with the original Victron shunt. This sees all batteries, also the starter batteries. I have installed additionally a battery monitor to see just the domestic bank.
When fully charged all batteries are drained, when voltage drops the starter batteries are isolated by the controller from Energy Solutions.
The SQ65 has the same controller panel at the lower helm, I am pretty sure also the electric installation will be rather the same.
Rgds
Helge
Enclosed photos show the SQ58 busbar with the original Victron shunt. This sees all batteries, also the starter batteries. I have installed additionally a battery monitor to see just the domestic bank.
When fully charged all batteries are drained, when voltage drops the starter batteries are isolated by the controller from Energy Solutions.
The SQ65 has the same controller panel at the lower helm, I am pretty sure also the electric installation will be rather the same.
Rgds
Helge
Attachments
MedMilo
Member
Thanks very much for all these recent posts re the monitor and tips on installing it etc. Brilliant! Have forwarded this to the team who are working on it…
All much appreciated
All much appreciated
Hurricane
Well-known member
The Victron Battery Monitor, which has been mentioned a lot, incorporates a secondary voltage monitor (that I use to monitor my engine start bank).
In this case, the shunt HAS to be on the negative or it won't monitor the secondary - in this case, there are then 2 positive wires - one goes to the house bank and one to the secondary (engine) bank.
I fitted my shunt directly onto the battery bank's negative terminal using a short busbar.
jfm
Well-known member
Ah ok, the mastervolt battery monitor also has 2 secondary monitors for the engine starters and the 12v battery, so this might be part of the reason Fairline fit it on the negative.
BUT those are not proper battery level monitors, on either the mastervolt or the victron, so one should not get too excited about them. They measure voltage and from that they deduce state of charge, which isn't the same as actually measuring the Ah flowing in/out of the batteries
vas
Well-known member
long time, just got time to start following the forum again, so first of all happy new year to all!
A Q John:
IS there any meaningful way of measuring the Ah flowing I/O on the service bank without breaking the bank? TBH, I'd not bother with the engine bank as its job is way too easy to worry me...
Slightly OffT, but will come round OnT eventually...
I'm wondering as from this summer's experience with 5 days on anchor two fridges (60-80lt) nav stuff, phone chargers and a 1KW inverter, I wasn't at all happy with my effectively new 4X180Ah lead acid service batteries 24V@360Ah (in the nice and hot e/r) charged through a 60A/24V Victron charger.
I was trying to only run the genny for an hour and was motoring around 2h daily. After the second day the Waeco fridge would stop (means 25.somethingV I don't remember offhand) by 3-4AM. OK we are talking mid August in Greece so temps were way north of 35C and the ambient where the Waeco is is almost 40C most of the day...
Following all this tread carefully I'm now firmly in the Hurricane camp, as in taking too much out, bringing too little in. Mind, when I'd fire the genny the 240V panel Ammeter would start at 5-6A and after an hour or so would drop to 1A (even the engine note of the 8KW Mase genny would change) and then I'd kill the genny. So looks like I was only charging the bulk and stopping at the float, so what, 80-85% full? Not clever, I see!
My mate with the 80ies P45 with similar setup similar number of batteries (slightly older) but with a vintage CETREK charger (original item on the P45 so hardly intelligent I should think!) had 2X250W panels on the aft deck overhang (P45 had a notoriously short overhang and he built it up to cover the lot rather nicely) plus 2X200W panels on top of the bimini. Electrics is not his strong point and he's rather stubborn so he uses some crappy MPPT controller and odd and too small a section cabling, so god knows what is fed back to the batteries. To keep the story short, he was fine with less than an hour of genny a day (both of us cook on gas) although they were six and we were eight (but 4teens that only needed their celphones to be happy...).
I've already decided to built a hardtop on MiToS and add 3-4sqm of solar panels up there (there's a thread somewhere with lots of sketches and ideas I have to pick up again soon!) So I think this is a way forward. However talking to a friend how's in that business he warned me that the values calculated on the literature have to be compensated (i.e. lowered!) to reflect the flat placement of the panels on a hardtop AND if you happen to have any line of shadow going across the panel, it's output is effectively nilled, so careful where you place them and how the sun hits them. So, Mike I don't think the area you propose is suitable, stick them on top of your bimini on the same frame, that's what my mate on the P45 did. They are light, wont be visible (unless you're on a 120ft+ top level or using a drone...) and will be clear of any distraction/shadows for most of the day. Apparently even the shadow cast from the VHF antenna can cut 50-60% of the output!
cheers
V.
jfm
Well-known member
Vas, I cant see that lead acids have any usefulness as service batteries. What you need for that job is the ability to give a large number (say 400) of cycles to a doD of say 70% (I mean 70% taken out of the battery, only 30% left).. And then you need a fast charge acceptance, and a fast enough charger to take the benefit of that fast charge acceptance.
Based on the above, in my book, you need 200Amps of charger current per 400Ah of nominal battery capacity, plus gel (not AGM) batteries. and for a boat of my side you want 400Ah @24v, which is one full night of lighting and refrigeration. Ideally you want all this outside the e/room. That is my OEM set up, and I love it. It is a fundamentally different approach from MedMilo's, and this is obviously an each-to-their-own topic but no way would I have specced what he has on his Sq65, which in my book is too much Ah capacity; too little ability to get charge back in thus increasing genset run time+shortening battery life, and all these kilos located in hot e/room.
My sonnescheins (GF12 106V, x4) will happily accept 180-200 amps of 24v charge, for about an hour when they're well depleted, and are happy to be taken to 60-70% DoD on hundreds of occasions, and they are not a crazy price.
The awkward aspect to all this is that gel, agm and wet batteries want different charging voltages, and when you're using engine driven alternators you therefore need, with the set up I propose, gel batteries for the engine starting. Gel isn't ideal for that, but is ok, so I tolerate that imperfection and expense to get what I see as perfection regarding the service batteries side of things.
The only decent battery contents monitor I have used is the Mastervolt one that I linked to, but it is £250 or something. I don't know of any cheaper ones. There is a victron equivalent but it might be a similar price
I have not yet bothered with solar. Due to my h/t being opening type, I don't have enough area to mount them and since I don't mind running a genset for an hour now and again I just don't feel any need for them. I do wonder why on this forum people are so reluctant to run gensets. I run mine at least 1 hour every morning and evening, for dishwashing/cooking/laundry/watermaker, so the fact that the batteries get a nice charge at their full acceptance rate is almost a "free" by-product
Based on the above, in my book, you need 200Amps of charger current per 400Ah of nominal battery capacity, plus gel (not AGM) batteries. and for a boat of my side you want 400Ah @24v, which is one full night of lighting and refrigeration. Ideally you want all this outside the e/room. That is my OEM set up, and I love it. It is a fundamentally different approach from MedMilo's, and this is obviously an each-to-their-own topic but no way would I have specced what he has on his Sq65, which in my book is too much Ah capacity; too little ability to get charge back in thus increasing genset run time+shortening battery life, and all these kilos located in hot e/room.
My sonnescheins (GF12 106V, x4) will happily accept 180-200 amps of 24v charge, for about an hour when they're well depleted, and are happy to be taken to 60-70% DoD on hundreds of occasions, and they are not a crazy price.
The awkward aspect to all this is that gel, agm and wet batteries want different charging voltages, and when you're using engine driven alternators you therefore need, with the set up I propose, gel batteries for the engine starting. Gel isn't ideal for that, but is ok, so I tolerate that imperfection and expense to get what I see as perfection regarding the service batteries side of things.
The only decent battery contents monitor I have used is the Mastervolt one that I linked to, but it is £250 or something. I don't know of any cheaper ones. There is a victron equivalent but it might be a similar price
I have not yet bothered with solar. Due to my h/t being opening type, I don't have enough area to mount them and since I don't mind running a genset for an hour now and again I just don't feel any need for them. I do wonder why on this forum people are so reluctant to run gensets. I run mine at least 1 hour every morning and evening, for dishwashing/cooking/laundry/watermaker, so the fact that the batteries get a nice charge at their full acceptance rate is almost a "free" by-product
Hurricane
Well-known member
I've almost made my mind up.
I'm not going to move the batteries out of the engine room - there just isn't space to move them anywhere else.
So, it is back to standard lead acid batteries.
No battery is any good at high temperatures but I believe that AGMs and Gels are worse.
I also know where I am with lead acid - and I know the limits of the engine alternators and the Mastervolt battery charger.
I see two alternatives
1 - Add another battery charger to get as much into the existing bank in as short a time as possible but I believe that I am already close to the limit of the max that will go in - especially when you consider the temperature of the engine room.
or
2 - Add solar panels to "finish off" the charging cycle during the day.
So, exploring the solar panel solution.
Essentially, there are three designs of panel and three technologies within each panel design.
The three designs are:
1. Rigid (domestic style) PV panels.
2. Semi Flexible - panels mounted on an aluminium or fibreglass sheet
3. Stick on panels.
Within each design, there are Monocrystalline, Polycrystalline and Amorphous.
Out of these three, Monocrystalline is the oldest, most efficient and reliable technology.
From my research the Stick on panels don't produce enough output.
If you do a search on YBW, there is significant evidence that the Semi Flexible ones fail after a couple of years in the marine environment - some people say the little wires joining each cell get damaged as the panel flexes.
That just leaves the Rigid ones but the Semi Flexible ones would be easier to fit.
Another consideration is that all panels become less efficient the hotter they get.
Anything stuck down (Stick on and Semi Flexible) will get hotter than panel ones where the air can freely circulate underneath.
So I am currently looking at rigid panels.
I think I can fit them in such a way that they can be removed and stored in my storage shed in Spain during the winter months.
I have a preferred panel manufacturer and it seems that I could get about 630 watts on the eyebrow without them looking out of place.
My choice of charging system at the moment is Victron's MPPT controller.
I think I can get the wiring from the panels to the controller to within 3m and the wiring between the controller and the batteries to within 4m.
At the moment, this is definitely a project for this season.
No kit bought yet but we are already considering when we will drive it out to Spain.
I'm not going to move the batteries out of the engine room - there just isn't space to move them anywhere else.
So, it is back to standard lead acid batteries.
No battery is any good at high temperatures but I believe that AGMs and Gels are worse.
I also know where I am with lead acid - and I know the limits of the engine alternators and the Mastervolt battery charger.
I see two alternatives
1 - Add another battery charger to get as much into the existing bank in as short a time as possible but I believe that I am already close to the limit of the max that will go in - especially when you consider the temperature of the engine room.
or
2 - Add solar panels to "finish off" the charging cycle during the day.
So, exploring the solar panel solution.
Essentially, there are three designs of panel and three technologies within each panel design.
The three designs are:
1. Rigid (domestic style) PV panels.
2. Semi Flexible - panels mounted on an aluminium or fibreglass sheet
3. Stick on panels.
Within each design, there are Monocrystalline, Polycrystalline and Amorphous.
Out of these three, Monocrystalline is the oldest, most efficient and reliable technology.
From my research the Stick on panels don't produce enough output.
If you do a search on YBW, there is significant evidence that the Semi Flexible ones fail after a couple of years in the marine environment - some people say the little wires joining each cell get damaged as the panel flexes.
That just leaves the Rigid ones but the Semi Flexible ones would be easier to fit.
Another consideration is that all panels become less efficient the hotter they get.
Anything stuck down (Stick on and Semi Flexible) will get hotter than panel ones where the air can freely circulate underneath.
So I am currently looking at rigid panels.
I think I can fit them in such a way that they can be removed and stored in my storage shed in Spain during the winter months.
I have a preferred panel manufacturer and it seems that I could get about 630 watts on the eyebrow without them looking out of place.
My choice of charging system at the moment is Victron's MPPT controller.
I think I can get the wiring from the panels to the controller to within 3m and the wiring between the controller and the batteries to within 4m.
At the moment, this is definitely a project for this season.
No kit bought yet but we are already considering when we will drive it out to Spain.
vas
Well-known member
similar conclusions drawn here Mike,
care to tell us which is your preferred panel manufacturer? I was told to avoid the Korean and various dubious Chinese ones.
I'm trying to finalize on the panels, was planning on two 99X160 280W 60cell mono, but I see I can get Luxor LX345-P 99X198 72cell 345W (but substantially more expensive at 360euro each)
Got to devise a way of keeping them at least 30mm above the coachroof in order to let air circulate.
3 and 4m lengths are no issue I recon, just get v.good quality and slightly oversize cables to avoid V drops I guess - at least that's what I plan to do.
cheers
V.
BartW
Well-known member
Vas the Victron BMV 700 battery monitor is around 150 euro (online) including the shunt,
imo a very usefull instrument in any setup, it integrates all the currents that go in and out your battery's.
and display's the % charge of the battery bank.
this would probably show that you have drained the battery's too deep, or didn't charge them full enough...
I have two of them, one for each bank separately,
and i have arranged a working mode that allows the relay contact in the battery monitor from the domestic bank to start the generator,
mainly used when going to bed; the generator switches automatically on, early in the morning,
moment is depending on how long we had the UWL's "on" the night before ;-)
Hurricane
Well-known member
Can you post a link to the data sheets for those panels - I couldn't find them.
I quite like these from LG - I would probably install 2 panels.
Brochure
http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/documents/lg-commercial-solar-brochure-lgneon2.pdf
Datasheet
http://www.lg.com/us/commercial/documents/lg-solar-spec-neon2-lg315n1c-g4-150901.pdf
I had a chat to a Vicrton dealer at the Paris Boat Show.
He confirmed some of my design criteria but I still need to ask some more questions.
The decision to wire in Series vs Parallel isn't that simple.
If I wire the LG panels above in parallel, the voltage output might not be enough to start the Victron controller (as it needs at least 5v more than the battery voltage to start - my batteries are wired in 24v banks).
So, I would need to wire them in series but then there is a danger that a shadow over one cell will stop the whole array - the solution seems to be diodes installed within the panels so that current can flow through a cell when it isn't producing power. It seems to me that the cells in the LG panels are wired in several "chains" - each chain with its own diode so this might work.
I'm going down to the boat at the end of this month to do some final measurements - then maybe order up some kit and try it out.
vas
Well-known member
Thanks Bart,
I wonder if I can skip that since I'll be using a Victron MMPT to charge via the solar panels and have the BT dongle that reports state of batteries and various other things. Got to spare a couple of hours and study all these carefully!
last on the eco line is the one I'm talking about:
http://www.luxorsolar.com/download.htm
I noticed there are three diodes in each, dunno if that's enough.
Regarding the series or parellel, they seem to produce 20% more than the LGs, open circuit is 46 vs 40, mpp V is 38 vs 33, so maybe they are more suited to parallel wiring? That's what I was planning to do tbh, but I still have the SS fabricator on standby in order to decide and actually get the panels I want so he can start building the hardtop around them!
what do you think?
cheers
V.
John100156
Well-known member
Just thinking about how much energy is available prior to, and left at the end of a week on the hook, you could knock-up a very simple electronic circuit to check this:
A series of dummy load resistors selected to provide say a constant 24A drain, plus a relay energised that starts an hour meter, the circuit set to drop-out the relay at a specific pre-defined voltage, set by a simple zenner diode, say pre-set to: 23V or 23.5V or even 24V, the relay contact stops the hour meter. Very easy and cheap to knock-up, I have a circuit somewhere for a 12V setup of this kind.
Test your battery bank 'only' prior to leaving your home berth, it will drain at a constant 24A until the battery voltage drops out the relay and hour meter, record the AH used: 24A x Hours.
After one week on the hook, with whatever charging strategy you wish to check/use, re-run the same test and compare the times. That is start test: 24A x HOURS minus end test: 24A x HOURS.
If your re-charging strategy is right, the readings should be similar, if the second test is significantly shorter, your batteries have been drained....
Be good to run the test without PV panels and then with them, to see what impact PV has.
Of course it all depends on the variable 'loads' imposed but for a typical week on the hook, the results would be quite interesting.
A series of dummy load resistors selected to provide say a constant 24A drain, plus a relay energised that starts an hour meter, the circuit set to drop-out the relay at a specific pre-defined voltage, set by a simple zenner diode, say pre-set to: 23V or 23.5V or even 24V, the relay contact stops the hour meter. Very easy and cheap to knock-up, I have a circuit somewhere for a 12V setup of this kind.
Test your battery bank 'only' prior to leaving your home berth, it will drain at a constant 24A until the battery voltage drops out the relay and hour meter, record the AH used: 24A x Hours.
After one week on the hook, with whatever charging strategy you wish to check/use, re-run the same test and compare the times. That is start test: 24A x HOURS minus end test: 24A x HOURS.
If your re-charging strategy is right, the readings should be similar, if the second test is significantly shorter, your batteries have been drained....
Be good to run the test without PV panels and then with them, to see what impact PV has.
Of course it all depends on the variable 'loads' imposed but for a typical week on the hook, the results would be quite interesting.
Hurricane
Well-known member
I've only glanced at the details in your link.
I will have a good look later.
From the quick look, that last one is too long for my eyebrow - the 300 watt one would fit though.
I take your point about the voltage but the overall power/sq m seems better on the LG panels
I'll have a good look though.
BTW - the way I was going to wire the system, I would keep my old Vicrton Battery Monitor in the circuit monitoring the input and output of the battery bank.
The Victron MPPT controller would then provide a separate output of solar power collected.
I agree the Victron's bluetooth interface feature to a smart phone should provide a good history of solar power collected.
But leaving the existing battery monitor should also provide an overall status of discharge and then charge from both the generator and the solar array.
BartW
Well-known member
all agreed !
to Vas,
the battery monitor unit display's somtheing else / other info than the MPPT controller
following this with strong interest, as I have a similar upgrade in mind.
not sure if this will happen in 2017 (other priority's)
will discuss the details also with Victron.
Hurricane
Well-known member
I would be interested to hear anything you find from Victron.
vas
Well-known member
Mike,
the large ones are out as I can only order a palette of 10
No way!
further, there's an issue on the mppt needed, seems that for two of those you need to get a 30A one (as per the Victron XL sheet) which costs almost as much as the a panel!
Waiting for some new quotes and will come back with actual models/specs and prices
cheers
V.
Hurricane
Well-known member
Mike,
the large ones are out as I can only order a palette of 10
No way!
further, there's an issue on the mppt needed, seems that for two of those you need to get a 30A one (as per the Victron XL sheet) which costs almost as much as the a panel!
Waiting for some new quotes and will come back with actual models/specs and prices
cheers
V.
This was the MPPT that I was looking at.
http://www.es-store.co.uk/product_d...lar-Charge-Controllers&cat_id=96&show_menu=27
My logic was 630 watts divided by 24 volts = 26 amps
Panels in series but I don't think thats important when sizing the MPPT.
I need to talk to a Victron expert before I actually order though.
Nothing will be ordered until I've been out to the boat and checked the measurements at the end of this month.
vas
Well-known member
correct,
only useful option for us is the 100/30, we could easily do with 75/30, only there isn't one. I guess you are aware of the XL sheet for the calculations? I added the 345W panels and did the calcs, will do the same with the ones I'll get beforehand:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/software/VE-MPPT-Calc-2_2.xlsx
cheers
V.
Hurricane
Well-known member
Yes, I ran that calc.
I also read the Victron MPPT manual.
I may have said this before but there is a small catch when using a small number of panels.
The Victron MPPT controller requires that the panels generate at least 5 volts more the battery voltage before the MPPT controller starts.
After that, it only needs 1 volt more than the battery voltage to keep going.
In my case, (24v bank) the voltage could be as high as 28v after the initial charge from the generator and I would want the solar panels to continue charging the final (say) 20%.
The LG panels have a Vmpp of 33.2 volts which is too close to the battery voltage for the MPPT to start (28v + 5v = 33v)
So, if I'm to use 2 panels, they will HAVE to be is series to get a total Vmpp of 66.4 volts (and thankfully within the operating voltage of the Victron MPPT)
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